The ACLU has become a sad joke

[AUDub 11,158]

5 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I’m asking you a direct question you refuse to answer.

Too insane to execute— do you think people deemed insane are in the right mindset to consent for medical providers to make such life-changing decisions?

I asked for clarification. You need to dial it back.

It depends upon his capacity for informed consent. It is a mental health professional's job to untie that knot. 

If the state refused him access, they denied him healthcare. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by AUDub

[AUDub 11,158]

5 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You conveniently ignore my most salient points. Ask yourself why.

Knock it off. 

[TexasTiger 12,964]

Just now, AUDub said:

I asked for clarification. You need to dial it back.

It depends upon his capacity for informed consent. It is a mental health professional's job to untie that not. 

If the state refused him access, they denied him healthcare. 

So tell me— the ACLU is in theory lawyers doing lawyering— you honestly don’t see the fact that their primary issue on this case didn’t align with his legal arguments as an issue? 
 

And if he’d gotten this gender affirming care, would you have transferred him to a women’s prison? If the ACLU argued not transferring him, would you support that, too?

[TexasTiger 12,964]

3 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Knock it off. 

You dial it back. You ask me to engage and ignore every uncomfortable question. 

[AUDub 11,158]

Just now, TexasTiger said:

So tell me— the ACLU is in theory lawyers doing lawyering— you honestly don’t see the fact that their primary issue on this case didn’t align with his legal arguments as an issue? 

I think your conflating criminal insanity with regard to his mental state at the time of the murders with an inability to consent to treatment. 

[TexasTiger 12,964]

Just now, AUDub said:

I think your conflating criminal insanity with regard to his mental state at the time of the murders with an inability to consent to treatment. 

No. They said he was insane at the time of their arguments.

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1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

No. They said he was insane at the time of their arguments.

This may come off as a foreign concept to you but even people with mental disorders like schizophrenia are capable of informed consent. 

[TexasTiger 12,964]

Just now, AUDub said:

This may come off as a foreign concept to you but even people with mental disorders like schizophrenia are capable of informed consent. 

Understood. They also said he was delusional. You’re still good with transitioning the delusional?

[TexasTiger 12,964]

So after you transition the delusional brutal rapist & killer, do you transfer her to a women’s prison?

[AUDub 11,158]

5 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Understood. They also said he was delusional. You’re still good with transitioning the delusional?

Consent is pretty much "situation specific" when it comes to matters of mental health.

It's a provider's job to figure that out.

If nothing else, if you accept that people on death row are entitled to treatment, then Owen should have had a right to that provider.

Edited June 23, 2023 by AUDub

[TexasTiger 12,964]

1 hour ago, AUDub said:

That's because they believe it is cruel and unusual in its own right. 

Substitute, for example, a broken bone. It they'd lead with "Duane Owen was forced to endure an untreated broken femur for 30 year while on death row," would you find it quite as objectionable?

Earliest reference I see where there was an indication of a disorder would be this article from 8 years ago:

https://thecoastalstar.com/profiles/blogs/should-mental-illness-spare-owen-from-execution

I think it's the provider's job to figure that out.

Regardless, he should be afforded that care while he is in the state's custody, same as he'd be entitled to treatment for a fever or a broken leg.

A position on which they're quite clear and have been for decades. Again, substitute a broken leg or something. Would you still be asking "why choose to focus on that?" 

So you think when someone claims this:

“Owen has claimed that he sexually assaulted women to harvest their hormones, that he was a transsexual who carried out the attacks to “turn himself into a female.””
 

The taxpayers are obligated to transition him? You think doing so is “medically necessary care” and put gender reassignment on par with kidney dialysis? Blood pressure medicine? Life saving transplants?

[AUDub 11,158]

8 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

So after you transition the delusional brutal rapist & killer, do you transfer her to a women’s prison?

Owen was a death row inmate in Florida. I think they ended the requirement that they stay in 23 hour a day solitary confinement, but Owen would have been segregated from the rest of either prison population for the duration of their incarceration, handcuffed and escorted when outside of a cell at all times.

That is to say, it wouldn't have been a problem here. 

[TexasTiger 12,964]

Many transgendered people don’t take hormones or get surgery, so how can it be medically necessary? Transgendered people exist in other societies and earlier eras and lacked access to hormones & surgery, but lived their lives out, many apparently happily. Do you think breast implants are medically necessary?

[AUDub 11,158]

5 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

So you think when someone claims this:

Owen has claimed that he sexually assaulted women to harvest their hormones, that he was a transsexual who carried out the attacks to “turn himself into a female.”
 

The taxpayers are obligated to transition him? You think doing so in “medically necessary care” puts gender reassignment on par with kidney dialysis? Blood pressure medicine? Life saving transplants?

Yep. As I would say Owen should have been allowed counsel and treatment for delusions, schizophrenia etc. 

Mental healthcare is healthcare, and that includes treatment for dysphoria or other gender identity disorders. 

[TexasTiger 12,964]

2 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Yep. As I would say Owen should have been allowed counsel and treatment for delusions, schizophrenia etc. 

Mental healthcare is healthcare, and that includes treatment for dysphoria or other gender identity disorders. 

Treatment. Mental healthcare, ok. But Are cross sex hormones medically necessary? Breast implants? Same as dialysis?

[AUDub 11,158]

8 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Treatment. Mental healthcare, ok. But Are cross sex hormones medically necessary?

It depends on the depth of the patient's discomfort. 

Yes, I get it. It's hard to work up much sympathy for the likes of a rapist and murderer like Owen. At the same time, I'll go back to using an example of a broken leg. Is the state obligated to alleviate the discomfort of someone that commit heinous crimes that justifiably landed them in death row? 

I would argue that they are.

8 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Breast implants? Same as dialysis?

It's obviously not the same in that breast implants are not life supporting care in the sense that renal replacement therapy is, but let me put this hypothetical down:

A woman in prison on a life sentence is found to have mutations in the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes and a double mastectomy is highly recommended to head off breast cancer. In these situations a breast implant is not considered cosmetic. I would argue that the state is on the hook for the breast reconstruction, even though it's not necessary to keep this woman alive.

[TexasTiger 12,964]

Just now, AUDub said:

It depends on the depth of the patient's discomfort. 

Yes, I get it. It's hard to work up much sympathy for the likes of a rapist and murderer like Owen. At the same time, I'll go back to using an example of a broken leg. Is the state obligated to alleviate the discomfort of someone that commit heinous crimes that justifiably landed them in death row? 

I would argue that they are.

It's obviously not the same in that breast implants are not life supporting care in the sense that renal replacement therapy is, but let me put this hypothetical down:

A woman in prison on a life sentence is found to have mutations in the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes and a double mastectomy is highly recommended to head off breast cancer. In these situations a breast implant is not considered cosmetic. I would argue that the state is on the hook for the breast reconstruction, even though it's not necessary to keep this woman alive.

I would agree if a woman had those genetic mutations. But here’s my frustration with the stance of the ACLU which illustrates the utter lack of logic that often surrounds this issue: 1. We’re told “A trans woman is a woman, period.” 2. Many women are flat chested. 3. If a trans woman wants breast implants to feel more “womanly,” advocates argue it’s “medically necessary care” and, in this case, even cruel and unusual punishment” to not provide it. 4. If a biological woman wants breast implants to feel more womanly I haven’t heard anyone argue it’s medically necessary. In fact, many dismiss it as mere vanity. 
 

No one stopped Duane from presenting as a woman, although there’s no evidence he actually did. For the ACLU to make the claim it was cruel and unusual punishment to deny medical transition is an absurd argument. If they want to argue Owen was denied medically necessary care, bring that case and convince a court such treatment was medically necessary. That’s different saying he was punished.