Depends on what your definition of "marched with" is

[TexasTiger 13,029]

Was it all a dream?

EXCLUSIVE: Mitt Romney claims that his father marched with MLK, but the record says otherwise

By DAVID S. BERNSTEIN

December 20, 2007 11:09:37 AM

REALLY?: Was Romney just dreaming?

UPDATED TODAY, DECEMBER 20, 2007, SEE BELOW FOR MORE.

In the most-watched speech of his political career, speaking on “Faith in America” at College Station, Texas, earlier this month, Mitt Romney evoked the strongest of all symbolic claims to civil-rights credentials: “I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.”

He has repeated the claim several times recently, most prominently to Tim Russert on Meet the Press . But, while the late George W. Romney, a four-term governor of Michigan, can lay claim to a strong record on civil rights, the Phoenix can find no evidence that the senior Romney actually marched with King, nor anything in the public record suggesting that he ever claimed to do so.

Nor did Mitt Romney ever previously claim that this took place, until long after his father passed away in 1995 — not even when defending accusations of the Mormon church’s discriminatory past during his 1994 Senate campaign.

Asked about the specifics of George Romney’s march with MLK, Mitt Romney’s campaign told the Phoenix that it took place in Grosse Pointe, Michigan. That jibes with the description proffered by David S. Broder in a Washington Post column written days after Mitt’s College Station speech.

Broder, in that column, references a 1967 book he co-authored on the Republican Party, which included a chapter on George Romney. It includes a one-line statement that the senior Romney “has marched with Martin Luther King through the exclusive Grosse Pointe suburb of Detroit.”

But that account is incorrect. King never marched in Grosse Pointe, according to the Grosse Pointe Historical Society, and had not appeared in the town at all at the time the Broder book was published. “I’m quite certain of that,” says Suzy Berschback, curator of the Grosse Pointe Historical Society. (Border was not immediately available for comment.)

Berschback also believes that George Romney never appeared at a protest, march, or rally in Grosse Pointe. “We’re a small town,” she says. “Governors don’t come here very often, except for fundraisers.”

In fact, King’s only appearance in Grosse Pointe, according to Berschback, took place after Broder’s book was published.

That was for a March 14 speech he delivered at Grosse Pointe High School, just three weeks before King was assassinated. But there was no march, and George Romney was not there.

Security concerns would have made a march impossible, even had one been planned. King was personally driven directly to the high school by the sheriff, as described by accounts at the time.

This 1968 Grosse Pointe appearance is the one that Romney spokesperson Eric Fehrnstrom initially insisted, in email exchanges with the Phoenix, was the event in question. Fehrnstrom cited the Broder column and “the Romney family recollection.”

Of the many contemporaneous and historical records of the Grosse Pointe speech, none make any mention of George Romney’s attendance. It is unlikely, if not implausible, that his presence would have gone unnoticed: not only was he governor of the state, he had just, weeks before, dropped out of the race for President.

And, Mitt Romney would not have known about the event, let alone had a chance to “see” it. He was at that time in the middle of his two-year mission for the Mormon church in Le Havre, France. By his own description and others’, he was cut off from virtually all contact with his family; and at the time, King’s Grosse Pointe appearance was no more than local news.

The original mention, in Broder’s 1967 book, of a Romney-King Grosse Pointe march might have resulted from an accidental conflation of several different events.

In June 1963, King marched in Detroit, and delivered an early version of his “I Have a Dream” speech; Governor George Romney did not participate, according to news accounts of the time.

Later that month, a local organization of roughly 50 members, called the Grosse Pointe Human Rights Council, held a walk through their town in support of open housing.

King had already left the state, and Romney did not participate in the Grosse Pointe walk, according to records from the time.

George Romney would later lead a 10,000-person march through Detroit, but not with King.

Although Broder’s book contained the brief mention, there is nothing in the public record to suggest that George Romney himself ever claimed to have marched with King.

Had George Romney ever marched with Martin Luther King Jr., it almost certainly would have been documented. From the mid-’50s through 1962, Romney was one of the country’s most prominent business leaders — for him to travel South for a civil-rights march would have been remarkable. From January 1963 on, as governor of Michigan and a presumed Presidential candidate, Romney was one of the most visible political figures in the country.

UPDATE: ROMNEY CAMPAIGN SAYS “TOGETHER” MAY MEAN DIFFERENT CITIES, DIFFERENT DAYS

A spokesperson for Mitt Romney now tells the Phoenix that George W. Romney and Martin Luther King Jr. marched together in June, 1963 -- although possibly not on the same day or in the same city.

http://thephoenix.com/article_ektid53200.aspx

[TexasTiger 13,029]

It get's worse-- or better, if your name is Huckabee:

Romney defends MLK march remark

Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:08 PM by Mark Murray

Filed Under: 2008, Romney

From NBC/NJ's Carrie Dann

Ft DODGE, IA -- Romney says that it depends on what the definition of "saw" is.

A defensive Romney was peppered with questions today on exactly what he meant when he said -- most recently on Meet the Press -- that he "saw" his father march with Martin Luther King Jr. Recent articles have indicated that his father, the late Michigan Gov. George Romney, didn't march with the civil-rights leader.

Admitting that he didn't see the march with his own eyes, he said, "I 'saw' him in the figurative sense."

"The reference of seeing my father lead in civil rights," he said, "and seeing my father march with Martin Luther King is in the sense of this figurative awareness of and recognition of his leadership."

"I've tried to be as accurate as I can be," he continued, smiling firmly. "If you look at the literature or look at the dictionary, the term 'saw' includes being aware of -- in the sense I've described."

The questioning did not relent. "I'm an English literature major," he insisted at one point. "When we say I saw the Patriots win the World Series, it doesn't necessarily mean you were there." (He meant the Super Bowl, of course.)

The back-and-forth continued to go south for Romney, who had intended for the story of the day to be about his slams on Mike Huckabee for easing penalties for meth users. Romney had to correct an earlier statement that he had himself "gotten tough on methamphetamine" (His proposed legislation as governor never made it through the Massachusetts House.)

"I'm making sure that that's correct as quickly as I possibly can," he said. "If there's any confusion there I'm sorry for any confusion."

Romney was increasingly exasperated with the questioning, especially when a reporter tied in these instances of word-parsing with the governor's past missteps on the trail -- such as his suggestion that he was endorsed by the NRA.

"Again, you can decide to hyper-analyze a word and try and create an impression that would not be accurate," he responded. "Frankly, I didn't realize that the NRA had an official endorsement program that was different than them phone-banking for me."

'I didn't apply for that, wasn't aware of it," he added.

Romney added with a weary smile that he knows that his words will be scrutinized, and that he's "up for it."

"If now and then I miss a word or I get something slightly wrong, I'll correct it, acknowledge what's wrong. But the overall thrust, the overall meaning of the story is very accurate."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/200.../20/528873.aspx

[AURaptor 1,126]

This is a stretch, on your part, TT. One could march for a cause with someone while not being in their presence. Admittedly, Mitt could have phrased the meaning better, to be more accurate and clear. But who is spinning the bigger tale here, Mitt, or Hillary, who claims she was named for Sir Edmund Hillary, first man to climb Mt Everest. Only he did so 6 yrs AFTER Hillary Rodham was born. Where her parents clairvoyant ? Or did they not give her a first name until her 6th birthday ?

Or what about Hillary having " no idea " where the Rose Lawfirm billing records were? The files missing for over 2 years, which were subpoened , which were found on her own private desk at the White House.

What's more important here is that George Romney was on the right side of the Civil Rights issue 'back in the day'.

[Tiger Al 0]

Hey, what do you know! Raptor's suddenly a believer in "nuance!"

[AURaptor 1,126]

Hey, what do you know! Raptor's suddenly a believer in "nuance!"

No, not really. But if that's the best you've got, then I'm content.

[Tiger Al 0]

Hey, what do you know! Raptor's suddenly a believer in "nuance!"

No, not really. But if that's the best you've got, then I'm content.

For Romney to go from this:

“I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.”

To this:

"The reference of seeing my father lead in civil rights and seeing my father march with Martin Luther King is in the sense of this figurative awareness of and recognition of his leadership."

And for you to defend it with this:

One could march for a cause with someone while not being in their presence.

Makes it obvious that you're on the "nuance bandwagon."

[TexasTiger 13,029]

This is a stretch, on your part, TT. One could march for a cause with someone while not being in their presence. Admittedly, Mitt could have phrased the meaning better, to be more accurate and clear. But who is spinning the bigger tale here, Mitt, or Hillary, who claims she was named for Sir Edmund Hillary, first man to climb Mt Everest. Only he did so 6 yrs AFTER Hillary Rodham was born. Where her parents clairvoyant ? Or did they not give her a first name until her 6th birthday ?

Or what about Hillary having " no idea " where the Rose Lawfirm billing records were? The files missing for over 2 years, which were subpoened , which were found on her own private desk at the White House.

What's more important here is that George Romney was on the right side of the Civil Rights issue 'back in the day'.

So I'm the one stretching? He SAW his father MARCH WITH MLK, JR. Except he didn't. Of course, you can deal with no issue on it's merits without dragging a Dem into the discussion. Pathetically humorous.

[Tigermike 3,055]

Hey, what do you know! Raptor's suddenly a believer in "nuance!"

No, not really. But if that's the best you've got, then I'm content.

For Romney to go from this:

“I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.”

To this:

"The reference of seeing my father lead in civil rights and seeing my father march with Martin Luther King is in the sense of this figurative awareness of and recognition of his leadership."

And for you to defend it with this:

One could march for a cause with someone while not being in their presence.

Makes it obvious that you're on the "nuance bandwagon."

It's also obvious that you were for it before you were against it.

[Tiger Al 0]

Hey, what do you know! Raptor's suddenly a believer in "nuance!"

No, not really. But if that's the best you've got, then I'm content.

For Romney to go from this:

“I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.”

To this:

"The reference of seeing my father lead in civil rights and seeing my father march with Martin Luther King is in the sense of this figurative awareness of and recognition of his leadership."

And for you to defend it with this:

One could march for a cause with someone while not being in their presence.

Makes it obvious that you're on the "nuance bandwagon."

It's also obvious that you were for it before you were against it.

It depends on what your definition of "it" is.

[Tigermike 3,055]

Hey, what do you know! Raptor's suddenly a believer in "nuance!"

No, not really. But if that's the best you've got, then I'm content.

For Romney to go from this:

“I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.”

To this:

"The reference of seeing my father lead in civil rights and seeing my father march with Martin Luther King is in the sense of this figurative awareness of and recognition of his leadership."

And for you to defend it with this:

One could march for a cause with someone while not being in their presence.

Makes it obvious that you're on the "nuance bandwagon."

It's also obvious that you were for it before you were against it.

It depends on what your definition of "it" is.

It was what you were taking about.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Honestly, this one looks pretty bad. There's no spinning it. He said he saw his dad march to gain favor by association in the voters eyes. He got called on it, now he's backtracking.

He didn't see anything be it literally or figuratively.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

Honestly, this one looks pretty bad. There's no spinning it. He said he saw his dad march to gain favor by association in the voters eyes. He got called on it, now he's backtracking.

He didn't see anything be it literally or figuratively.

The BG sanity tour continues!

[Tiger Al 0]

It was what you were taking about.

If you have something to say then say it.

[Tigermike 3,055]

It was what you were taking about.

If you have something to say then say it.

I did.

[Tiger Al 0]

It was what you were taking about.

If you have something to say then say it.

I did.

Sorry...I'm not able to break your code.

[Tigermike 3,055]

It was what you were taking about.

If you have something to say then say it.

I did.

Sorry...I'm not able to break your code.

There is no code. It is what it is.

[Tiger Al 0]

It was what you were taking about.

If you have something to say then say it.

I did.

Sorry...I'm not able to break your code.

There is no code. It is what it is.

Whatever. I'm not really into post-padding so, if you have nothing to say, then let's move on. Merry Christmas!

[Tigermike 3,055]

It was what you were taking about.

If you have something to say then say it.

I did.

Sorry...I'm not able to break your code.

There is no code. It is what it is.

Whatever. I'm not really into post-padding so, if you have nothing to say, then let's move on. Merry Christmas!

I will back up just for you and type real slow. You were all for nuance when it was John Kerry doing the nuance. Now it is someone not from the DNC and you have a hard time with it.

It's also obvious that you were for it before you were against it.

That's par for the course for dims isn't it?

[TexasTiger 13,029]

It is what it is.

You quoting Saban now?

[Tigermike 3,055]

It is what it is.

You quoting Saban now?

Even though I will be accused of post padding, I will only say it is what it is.

[Tiger Al 0]

It was what you were taking about.

If you have something to say then say it.

I did.

Sorry...I'm not able to break your code.

There is no code. It is what it is.

Whatever. I'm not really into post-padding so, if you have nothing to say, then let's move on. Merry Christmas!

I will back up just for you and type real slow. You were all for nuance when it was John Kerry doing the nuance. Now it is someone not from the DNC and you have a hard time with it.

It's also obvious that you were for it before you were against it.

That's par for the course for dims isn't it?

There was no nuance in Romney's words, though. BG03 hit the nail on the head. I never believed Romney was engaging in nuance, hence the little quotation mark thingies " " around the word nuance in my posts to Raptor.

[AURaptor 1,126]

This is a stretch, on your part, TT. One could march for a cause with someone while not being in their presence. Admittedly, Mitt could have phrased the meaning better, to be more accurate and clear. But who is spinning the bigger tale here, Mitt, or Hillary, who claims she was named for Sir Edmund Hillary, first man to climb Mt Everest. Only he did so 6 yrs AFTER Hillary Rodham was born. Where her parents clairvoyant ? Or did they not give her a first name until her 6th birthday ?

Or what about Hillary having " no idea " where the Rose Lawfirm billing records were? The files missing for over 2 years, which were subpoened , which were found on her own private desk at the White House.

What's more important here is that George Romney was on the right side of the Civil Rights issue 'back in the day'.

So I'm the one stretching? He SAW his father MARCH WITH MLK, JR. Except he didn't. Of course, you can deal with no issue on it's merits without dragging a Dem into the discussion. Pathetically humorous.

Yes, you are the one stretching. Mitt did indeed see his father , George Romney march FOR civil rights. That he didn't technically march WITH Martin Luther King Jr , doesn't detract from the fact that Mitt's father was actively in favor of the movement. I SAW the Iron Curtain fall. I wasn't AT the Berlin wall, but I lived in a time when such events did indeed occur. Granted, Mitt could have phrased it more clearly, he's still right. George Romney did indeed march, and he marched FOR the civil rights of blacks. There's really no issue here what so ever.

[Tiger Al 0]

Yes, you are the one stretching. Mitt did indeed see his father , George Romney march FOR civil rights. That he didn't technically march WITH Martin Luther King Jr , doesn't detract from the fact that Mitt's father was actively in favor of the movement. I SAW the Iron Curtain fall. I wasn't AT the Berlin wall, but I lived in a time when such events did indeed occur. Granted, Mitt could have phrased it more clearly, he's still right. George Romney did indeed march, and he marched FOR the civil rights of blacks. There's really no issue here what so ever.

“I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.” Mitt Romney

[AURaptor 1,126]

Yes, you are the one stretching. Mitt did indeed see his father , George Romney march FOR civil rights. That he didn't technically march WITH Martin Luther King Jr , doesn't detract from the fact that Mitt's father was actively in favor of the movement. I SAW the Iron Curtain fall. I wasn't AT the Berlin wall, but I lived in a time when such events did indeed occur. Granted, Mitt could have phrased it more clearly, he's still right. George Romney did indeed march, and he marched FOR the civil rights of blacks. There's really no issue here what so ever.

“I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.” Mitt Romney

You'd better have some more coffee if that's the best reply you can come up with this early in the morning. You're just chasing your own tail now.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

This is a stretch, on your part, TT. One could march for a cause with someone while not being in their presence. Admittedly, Mitt could have phrased the meaning better, to be more accurate and clear. But who is spinning the bigger tale here, Mitt, or Hillary, who claims she was named for Sir Edmund Hillary, first man to climb Mt Everest. Only he did so 6 yrs AFTER Hillary Rodham was born. Where her parents clairvoyant ? Or did they not give her a first name until her 6th birthday ?

Or what about Hillary having " no idea " where the Rose Lawfirm billing records were? The files missing for over 2 years, which were subpoened , which were found on her own private desk at the White House.

What's more important here is that George Romney was on the right side of the Civil Rights issue 'back in the day'.

So I'm the one stretching? He SAW his father MARCH WITH MLK, JR. Except he didn't. Of course, you can deal with no issue on it's merits without dragging a Dem into the discussion. Pathetically humorous.

Yes, you are the one stretching. Mitt did indeed see his father , George Romney march FOR civil rights. That he didn't technically march WITH Martin Luther King Jr , doesn't detract from the fact that Mitt's father was actively in favor of the movement. I SAW the Iron Curtain fall. I wasn't AT the Berlin wall, but I lived in a time when such events did indeed occur. Granted, Mitt could have phrased it more clearly, he's still right. George Romney did indeed march, and he marched FOR the civil rights of blacks. There's really no issue here what so ever.

I just hope you maintain that same level of generosity and understanding to everyone in the political world. You do realize that Gore never said he invented the internet, don't you?

On the other hand, Romney did once specifically say that he AND his dad marched with King through the streets of Detroit.

DES MOINES, Iowa, Dec. 21 (UPI) -- U.S. Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney conceded he never saw his father march with Martin Luther King Jr., as he claimed in a debate this month.

Former Massachusetts Gov. Romney said his father, Michigan Gov. George Romney, had told him he had marched with the civil rights leader and that he had been using the word "saw" in a "figurative sense," The Boston Globe reported Friday.

"If you look at the literature, if you look at the dictionary, the term 'saw' includes being aware of in the sense I've described," Romney told reporters in Iowa. "I saw my dad march with Martin Luther King. I did not see it with my own eyes, but I saw him in the sense of being aware of his participation in that great effort."

Historical evidence, however, shows that George Romney never marched with King, though he supported King's civil rights agenda, the newspaper reported.

Susan Englander, assistant editor of the Martin Luther King Jr. Papers Project at Stanford University, told the newspaper: "I researched this question, and indeed it is untrue that George Romney marched with Martin Luther King."

In 1978, Mitt Romney told the Boston Herald, "My father and I marched with Martin Luther King Jr. through the streets of Detroit."

Romney's campaign spokesman Eric Fehrnstrom acknowledged that was not true.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007...mlk_claim/3819/

In 1978, Mitt Romney told the Boston Herald, "My father and I marched with Martin Luther King Jr. through the streets of Detroit."

Yeah, and John Kerry spent Christmas in Cambodia.