More Cheating in Tuscaloosa

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

No this time it's not UAT. I guess it's just the culture in Tuscaloosa. In yesterday's House (State) vote on a constitutional ammendment repealing the current 4% sales tax on groceries, Rep. Robert Bentley of Tuscaloosa later admitted he cast the deciding vote on another member's machine (this member was absent). Bentley said he did it because he had "given his word." Given his word to cheat? Wow that a new take on integrity. Who did he give his word to? Does someone own his vote?

[tiger88 934]

If it not abbout uat why is it in the rivals forum? This is a waste of a rivals forum thread w/ a very misleading title. I'm sure you see an important connection, but to me threads like this just show what ridiculous bama obsessions some AU fans have. I'm sure you feel you're really giving it to the bammers all the time and once in a while you do have a good dig at them, but come on dude, give it a rest. Just my $.02.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

If it not abbout uat why is it in the rivals forum? This is a waste of a rivals forum thread w/ a very misleading title. I'm sure you see an important connection, but to me threads like this just show what ridiculous bama obsessions some AU fans have. I'm sure you feel you're really giving it to the bammers all the time and once in a while you do have a good dig at them, but come on dude, give it a rest. Just my $.02.

Wow you are a real cheapskate.

[AFTiger 282]

This crap has been happening for years. It is reflective of the general lack of ethics in the legislature. Each vote should require a key to vote so this can't happen anymore.

[Auburn85 434]

since the issue is mentioned here...

what do you think of this proposal?

for it to pass, it now has to pass in the senate and then, the people have to vote in favor of it.

out of all the articles that's been wrote on this proposal, this is hands down the best article I've seen explaining who would benefit and not benefit.

http://www.al.com/printer/printer.ssf?/bas...2&thispag...

Tax plan up for debate could affect food bills

State sales tax on groceries out but income tax adjusts

Sunday, April 13, 2008

DAVID WHITE

News staff writer

MONTGOMERY - At least 1.5 million households in Alabama would save money and fewer than 700,000 households would lose money under a tax plan scheduled for debate Tuesday in the state House of Representatives, records show.

The plan by Rep. John Knight, D-Montgomery, would remove the 4 percent state sales tax from groceries. The Legislative Fiscal Office estimates that would save consumers $320 million a year.

It also would cut state income taxes for many lower-income households but raise them on many upper-income households, for a net income-tax increase of $345 million a year. Some middle-income households would pay less income tax and some would pay more.

Knight estimated that 80 percent of Alabama households would save money or break even under his tax plan, while 20 percent would pay more in taxes.

"It's the right, Christian thing to do," Knight said. "Working families, they need some relief. I think all of us in elected office want to do something to help working families."

Speaker Seth Hammett, D-Andalusia, the House leader, endorsed the plan.

"I think it's very much a step forward in terms of tax fairness," he said. "It provides some tax relief for the people that absolutely need it. I don't know how many times I've been approached over the years by people saying they feel it's unconscionable that we would be taxing food."

But Rep. Mary Sue McClurkin, R-Indian Springs, said she didn't think it was fair to raise taxes on some people to remove the state sales tax from groceries. "I don't think a certain segment should have to pay to take it off."

Rep. Mike Hubbard, R-Auburn, agreed.

"I support a tax cut, not just taking a tax off here and making another segment of the population bear the burden for it," said Hubbard, who leads the caucus of 43 House Republicans. He said some Republicans are for the bill and others oppose it.

Knight said removing the sales tax from groceries and not replacing the lost revenue would harm the Education Trust Fund for public schools and colleges. Most state sales-tax collections go to that fund.

About the bill:

Knight's plan, House Bill 274, would rewrite the state constitution. At least 63 of the 105 House members and at least 21 of the 35 senators would have to approve it. If that happened, state voters would decide Nov. 4 whether to accept or reject the plan.

Only Alabama and Mississippi collect the full state sales tax on groceries, said Kimble Forrister, executive director of Alabama Arise, a coalition of churches and other civic groups that lobbies for poor people.

Besides exempting groceries from the 4 percent state sales tax starting Jan. 1, Knight's plan would adjust state income taxes starting with the 2009 tax year. It would:

Set the state's optional standard deductions at the amounts allowed for federal income taxes. For 2009, Alabama's standard deduction would rise from $2,000 to $5,500 for a middle-income single tax filer and from $4,000 to $11,100 for a middle-income couple filing jointly, Forrister said.

Raise the personal exemption and dependent exemption to at least $2,200 per adult or child. The exemptions now are $1,500 per adult and $500 per child for middle-income filers.

Raise the annual income threshold at which a family of four starts paying state income taxes from $12,600 to $20,000, because of the increased deductions and exemptions, Forrister said.

End the ability of taxpayers to deduct from their taxable state income the amount of federal income tax they paid. That change would cost many taxpayers, especially those making $100,000 or more a year, a lot of money.

Under the income-tax portion of Knight's plan, about 990,000 income-tax filers, 45.3 percent, would save money, according to a model run by the state Department of Revenue and provided to the Legislative Fiscal Office.

Roughly 500,000 income-tax filers, 22.7 percent, would pay about the same amount in state income taxes. Many would be low-income people who already pay little or no income tax.

People whose income taxes wouldn't change under Knight's plan still would save money by not having to pay the state sales tax on groceries.

Savings on food:

A U.S. Department of Agriculture survey for February estimated the annual cost of eating moderate-cost meals at home at $3,130 for a single middle-aged man, about $6,400 for a middle-aged couple with no dependents and about $11,000 for a middle-aged couple with two children of elementary school age.

The savings in state sales taxes each year would be about $125 for the single man, $256 for the couple and $440 for the family of four.

The revenue department's model also showed that about 700,000 income-tax filers, 32 percent, would pay more in state income taxes under Knight's plan.

More than 100,000 of those filers, those making less than $40,000 a year, probably would save on taxes overall under Knight's plan, because savings from not paying state sales taxes on groceries likely would outweigh higher income taxes. On average, their annual increase in income tax would be $115 or less per filer.

But more than 220,000 tax filers, each making $100,000 or more per year, likely would pay more in net sales and income-tax collections.

Among tax filers who would pay more in income tax, the model shows that 162,288 filers, each making at least $100,000 but less than $200,000 a year, would pay an average of $728 a year more under Knight's plan. A large family might save that much with lower grocery bills, but many families wouldn't.

The model also showed that 58,773 tax filers, each making more than $200,000 a year, would pay an average of $5,133 a year more in income taxes under Knight's plan. The lower tax on groceries likely wouldn't make much of a dent in that increase.

[tiger88 934]

If it not abbout uat why is it in the rivals forum? This is a waste of a rivals forum thread w/ a very misleading title. I'm sure you see an important connection, but to me threads like this just show what ridiculous bama obsessions some AU fans have. I'm sure you feel you're really giving it to the bammers all the time and once in a while you do have a good dig at them, but come on dude, give it a rest. Just my $.02.

Wow you are a real cheapskate.

Good to see the thread found its way to the proper forum. Posting this in the rivals forum really wasn't worthy of 2 cents worth, but I felt generous. You just tee it up for bg so often and I saw this as another one of those times. Anyways, have a nice thread.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

If it not abbout uat why is it in the rivals forum? This is a waste of a rivals forum thread w/ a very misleading title. I'm sure you see an important connection, but to me threads like this just show what ridiculous bama obsessions some AU fans have. I'm sure you feel you're really giving it to the bammers all the time and once in a while you do have a good dig at them, but come on dude, give it a rest. Just my $.02.

Wow you are a real cheapskate.

Good to see the thread found its way to the proper forum. Posting this in the rivals forum really wasn't worthy of 2 cents worth, but I felt generous. You just tee it up for bg so often and I saw this as another one of those times. Anyways, have a nice thread.

Geez what can be more fun than teeing it up for BG?

[WinCrimson 61]

This isn't cheating at all.

Proxy voting is allowed in the Alabama House. As much as you may dislike the idea of a Representative voting for an absent member, it's completely legal.

FWIW, the U.S. House allowed it up until 2003.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

This isn't cheating at all.

Proxy voting is allowed in the Alabama House. As much as you may dislike the idea of a Representative voting for an absent member, it's completely legal.

FWIW, the U.S. House allowed it up until 2003.

Then why did Bentley later recant and say he did something unethical .

[WinCrimson 61]

Beats me.

I don't care for Bentley. He's my Rep.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Beats me.

I don't care for Bentley. He's my Rep.

It turns out there is a Rule 32 which if invoked does not allow a member to vote for someone else. It was invoked at the beginning of debate but strangely enough removed when voting began. It turns out Bentley wasn't alone by any means. In today's Huntsville Times, Rep. Randy Hinshaw adsmitted to casting votes for several other members, saying he was doing what was best for his district. Wow, that mentality is so unbelievable, even for the Alabama Legislature. If Reps are doing what they get paid for and are absent, then their votes shouldn't get counted.

Aside from this, I wonder if people realize that if this amendment passes to reduce the 4% sales tax on groceries then they lose their federal income tax as a deduction on thei state income tax. Some folks better be doing some calculations because the state's own estimates are that this will result in an INCREASE of $50 million in revenues for the state. Another slick trick by the Democrats to increase our taxes.

[tiger88 934]

If it not abbout uat why is it in the rivals forum? This is a waste of a rivals forum thread w/ a very misleading title. I'm sure you see an important connection, but to me threads like this just show what ridiculous bama obsessions some AU fans have. I'm sure you feel you're really giving it to the bammers all the time and once in a while you do have a good dig at them, but come on dude, give it a rest. Just my $.02.

Wow you are a real cheapskate.

Good to see the thread found its way to the proper forum. Posting this in the rivals forum really wasn't worthy of 2 cents worth, but I felt generous. You just tee it up for bg so often and I saw this as another one of those times. Anyways, have a nice thread.

Geez what can be more fun than teeing it up for BG?

Apparently, nothing that you are aware of.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

If it not abbout uat why is it in the rivals forum? This is a waste of a rivals forum thread w/ a very misleading title. I'm sure you see an important connection, but to me threads like this just show what ridiculous bama obsessions some AU fans have. I'm sure you feel you're really giving it to the bammers all the time and once in a while you do have a good dig at them, but come on dude, give it a rest. Just my $.02.

Wow you are a real cheapskate.

Good to see the thread found its way to the proper forum. Posting this in the rivals forum really wasn't worthy of 2 cents worth, but I felt generous. You just tee it up for bg so often and I saw this as another one of those times. Anyways, have a nice thread.

Geez what can be more fun than teeing it up for BG?

Apparently, nothing that you are aware of.

Sorry St. Tereasa, guess that's life.

[tiger88 934]

If it not abbout uat why is it in the rivals forum? This is a waste of a rivals forum thread w/ a very misleading title. I'm sure you see an important connection, but to me threads like this just show what ridiculous bama obsessions some AU fans have. I'm sure you feel you're really giving it to the bammers all the time and once in a while you do have a good dig at them, but come on dude, give it a rest. Just my $.02.

Wow you are a real cheapskate.

Good to see the thread found its way to the proper forum. Posting this in the rivals forum really wasn't worthy of 2 cents worth, but I felt generous. You just tee it up for bg so often and I saw this as another one of those times. Anyways, have a nice thread.

Geez what can be more fun than teeing it up for BG?

Apparently, nothing that you are aware of.

Sorry St. Tereasa, guess that's life.

Well, at least you try.

[80Tiger 904]

since the issue is mentioned here...

what do you think of this proposal?

for it to pass, it now has to pass in the senate and then, the people have to vote in favor of it.

out of all the articles that's been wrote on this proposal, this is hands down the best article I've seen explaining who would benefit and not benefit.

http://www.al.com/printer/printer.ssf?/bas...2&thispag...

Tax plan up for debate could affect food bills

State sales tax on groceries out but income tax adjusts

Sunday, April 13, 2008

DAVID WHITE

News staff writer

MONTGOMERY - At least 1.5 million households in Alabama would save money and fewer than 700,000 households would lose money under a tax plan scheduled for debate Tuesday in the state House of Representatives, records show.

The plan by Rep. John Knight, D-Montgomery, would remove the 4 percent state sales tax from groceries. The Legislative Fiscal Office estimates that would save consumers $320 million a year.

It also would cut state income taxes for many lower-income households but raise them on many upper-income households, for a net income-tax increase of $345 million a year. Some middle-income households would pay less income tax and some would pay more.

Knight estimated that 80 percent of Alabama households would save money or break even under his tax plan, while 20 percent would pay more in taxes.

"It's the right, Christian thing to do," Knight said. "Working families, they need some relief. I think all of us in elected office want to do something to help working families."

Speaker Seth Hammett, D-Andalusia, the House leader, endorsed the plan.

"I think it's very much a step forward in terms of tax fairness," he said. "It provides some tax relief for the people that absolutely need it. I don't know how many times I've been approached over the years by people saying they feel it's unconscionable that we would be taxing food."

But Rep. Mary Sue McClurkin, R-Indian Springs, said she didn't think it was fair to raise taxes on some people to remove the state sales tax from groceries. "I don't think a certain segment should have to pay to take it off."

Rep. Mike Hubbard, R-Auburn, agreed.

"I support a tax cut, not just taking a tax off here and making another segment of the population bear the burden for it," said Hubbard, who leads the caucus of 43 House Republicans. He said some Republicans are for the bill and others oppose it.

Knight said removing the sales tax from groceries and not replacing the lost revenue would harm the Education Trust Fund for public schools and colleges. Most state sales-tax collections go to that fund.

About the bill:

Knight's plan, House Bill 274, would rewrite the state constitution. At least 63 of the 105 House members and at least 21 of the 35 senators would have to approve it. If that happened, state voters would decide Nov. 4 whether to accept or reject the plan.

Only Alabama and Mississippi collect the full state sales tax on groceries, said Kimble Forrister, executive director of Alabama Arise, a coalition of churches and other civic groups that lobbies for poor people.

Besides exempting groceries from the 4 percent state sales tax starting Jan. 1, Knight's plan would adjust state income taxes starting with the 2009 tax year. It would:

Set the state's optional standard deductions at the amounts allowed for federal income taxes. For 2009, Alabama's standard deduction would rise from $2,000 to $5,500 for a middle-income single tax filer and from $4,000 to $11,100 for a middle-income couple filing jointly, Forrister said.

Raise the personal exemption and dependent exemption to at least $2,200 per adult or child. The exemptions now are $1,500 per adult and $500 per child for middle-income filers.

Raise the annual income threshold at which a family of four starts paying state income taxes from $12,600 to $20,000, because of the increased deductions and exemptions, Forrister said.

End the ability of taxpayers to deduct from their taxable state income the amount of federal income tax they paid. That change would cost many taxpayers, especially those making $100,000 or more a year, a lot of money.

Under the income-tax portion of Knight's plan, about 990,000 income-tax filers, 45.3 percent, would save money, according to a model run by the state Department of Revenue and provided to the Legislative Fiscal Office.

Roughly 500,000 income-tax filers, 22.7 percent, would pay about the same amount in state income taxes. Many would be low-income people who already pay little or no income tax.

People whose income taxes wouldn't change under Knight's plan still would save money by not having to pay the state sales tax on groceries.

Savings on food:

A U.S. Department of Agriculture survey for February estimated the annual cost of eating moderate-cost meals at home at $3,130 for a single middle-aged man, about $6,400 for a middle-aged couple with no dependents and about $11,000 for a middle-aged couple with two children of elementary school age.

The savings in state sales taxes each year would be about $125 for the single man, $256 for the couple and $440 for the family of four.

The revenue department's model also showed that about 700,000 income-tax filers, 32 percent, would pay more in state income taxes under Knight's plan.

More than 100,000 of those filers, those making less than $40,000 a year, probably would save on taxes overall under Knight's plan, because savings from not paying state sales taxes on groceries likely would outweigh higher income taxes. On average, their annual increase in income tax would be $115 or less per filer.

But more than 220,000 tax filers, each making $100,000 or more per year, likely would pay more in net sales and income-tax collections.

Among tax filers who would pay more in income tax, the model shows that 162,288 filers, each making at least $100,000 but less than $200,000 a year, would pay an average of $728 a year more under Knight's plan. A large family might save that much with lower grocery bills, but many families wouldn't.

The model also showed that 58,773 tax filers, each making more than $200,000 a year, would pay an average of $5,133 a year more in income taxes under Knight's plan. The lower tax on groceries likely wouldn't make much of a dent in that increase.

It is an overall tax increase. Nowhere in this legaslation is there anything about reduced spending. Never seems to be. Why should those 58,773 tax filers with over $200,000 income have to pay an additional $5133. That is obscene when you consider these are the people that are already paying huge dollar amounts from their income (I am not in this class of earners). But the biggest problem with this, is that the state wants us to pay a tax on the tax we pay to the federal govt. That is wrong.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Well, at least you try.

Not sure what the "poke" is about but yeah life is good for me right now. I feel blessed beyond belief, far more than I deserve. I hope the same is true for you.

[tiger88 934]

Well, at least you try.

Not sure what the "poke" is about but yeah life is good for me right now. I feel blessed beyond belief, far more than I deserve. I hope the same is true for you.

To me the poke emoticon is usually a sign of some good natured ribbing as was the case here. I'm going to have to come in a notch or two below the "blessed beyond belief" level, but life is good according to my bless-o-meter.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Well, at least you try.

Not sure what the "poke" is about but yeah life is good for me right now. I feel blessed beyond belief, far more than I deserve. I hope the same is true for you.

To me the poke emoticon is usually a sign of some good natured ribbing as was the case here. I'm going to have to come in a notch or two below the "blessed beyond belief" level, but life is good according to my bless-o-meter.

OK. Well I guess you are going to have to tee it for BG more often so you can move up a notch or two

Hope you have a good weekend.