How Washington Made Harvey Worse

[autigeremt 6,616]

I was a part of the response to Katrina  and Deepwater Horizon and I'm here to say that our govt. sucks at full filling it's promises. Someone is always behind the curtain. 

[AuburnNTexas 7,147]

As I said earlier we shouldn't make it easy to build in flood zones by selling cheap flood insurance, the other thing if you build in a flood zone you should be required to build on pier and beam so first floor is above flood levels.  Building codes should reflect where the home is built it should not be one code fits all.  As bad as the flood that Harvey caused if the average home in that area had been 6-8 feet off the ground the impact would have been greatly mitigated.

I am sure that we have some architects or builders on this board who could give us a rough idea of how much more it would cost to build a home properly in that part of Texas on pier and beam versus concrete slab.  I believe the cost would be cheap compared to the deductible you pay even when you have flood insurance.

[alexava 6,973]

On 9/11/2017 at 10:57 AM, AuburnNTexas said:

As I said earlier we shouldn't make it easy to build in flood zones by selling cheap flood insurance, the other thing if you build in a flood zone you should be required to build on pier and beam so first floor is above flood levels.  Building codes should reflect where the home is built it should not be one code fits all.  As bad as the flood that Harvey caused if the average home in that area had been 6-8 feet off the ground the impact would have been greatly mitigated.

I am sure that we have some architects or builders on this board who could give us a rough idea of how much more it would cost to build a home properly in that part of Texas on pier and beam versus concrete slab.  I believe the cost would be cheap compared to the deductible you pay even when you have flood insurance.

i Would never build a house on a slab. i think it is actually more expensive to build on a slab. a lot of variables go into it. the pier and beam you mention, us rednecks call "crawlspace" is the only way i would go. i guess it will vary on how many blocks high it will have to be built. salty might be more qualified to speak on this.

[AuburnNTexas 7,147]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 3:06 PM, alexava said:

i Would never build a house on a slab. i think it is actually more expensive to build on a slab. a lot of variables go into it. the pier and beam you mention, us rednecks call "crawlspace" is the only way i would go. i guess it will vary on how many blocks high it will have to be built. salty might be more qualified to speak on this.

I have built both ways many years ago. When I built homes in Alabama many years ago pier and beam was the typical crawl Space but if you are talking about 6-10 feet off the ground to protect from flooding cost would go up.  It has been almost 40 years since I was in the construction business that is why I asked a builder or architect to comment on price. I just don't know anymore.

 

But even if the cost is higher it would seem building code would require it in a flood zone. Why have building codes if they don't look at things like that.  Here in North Texas we have an issue with soil expanding and contracting often causing expensive repairs when a slab settles again pier and beam would be an ideal solution the cost of re-leveling a home on pier and beam is  negligible when compared to retrofitting something under a slab at a later date. Again code doesn't require it so people get hit with large bills later.

[alexava 6,973]

It would all depend on how high it had to be. 6-10 feet is a basement or underneath garage. Cost  would be significant just in bricks to side it. More like stilts 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

18 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I have built both ways many years ago. When I built homes in Alabama many years ago pier and beam was the typical crawl Space but if you are talking about 6-10 feet off the ground to protect from flooding cost would go up.  It has been almost 40 years since I was in the construction business that is why I asked a builder or architect to comment on price. I just don't know anymore.

 

But even if the cost is higher it would seem building code would require it in a flood zone. Why have building codes if they don't look at things like that.  Here in North Texas we have an issue with soil expanding and contracting often causing expensive repairs when a slab settles again pier and beam would be an ideal solution the cost of re-leveling a home on pier and beam is  negligible when compared to retrofitting something under a slab at a later date. Again code doesn't require it so people get hit with large bills later.

A Post tension foundation will almost always be cheaper than using a pier and beam style foundation on a house. There could be exceptions, but usually depending on the depth of the piers the cost alone of them could exceed the cost of a PT foundation. I have designed both for a range of structures from houses to multi-story hotels etc.

As far as getting the structures out of the flood plain it is already required depending on which zone you are in. It is already in the IBC, but it is up to the local government to decide how they want to handle it. It seems that most defer to FEMA and their NFIP requirements. I this is why so many houses flooded that were never in any type of flood plain. Based on FEMA they did not have to raise them. 

Looking at the ASCE 24 code, it may have saved some of the houses from flooding, maybe not since this has been classified as a 1000yr event and that magnitude of event is not considered. If local municipalities used the ASCE guidelines it could have uncovered where there may be flooding in a 500 yr, that FEMA does not predict. In Katy out where I live we had basically 2 500yr floods in 2016 and most areas did not flood out houses. Some of the older portions did, but those historically always flood in extreme events. The other houses flooded not because they were in a FEMA flood plain, but rather they were adjacent to the Barker Reservoir which has a 104' elevation at the top of the levy. But they built houses with elevations of 97' and higher because the extreme event pool elevation of the Barker was 95'. We rented a house when we first moved down here which actually got flooded out. It was a nice house and we thought about buying until I looked at the elevations of the house compared to the levy. The house was at 99.5'. My first thought was if those levies are 104'....if that elevation is ever required all these houses are screwed since they are all on the reservoir side. Me being an engineer, I thought to myself if the extreme pool is 95' but the levy is 104' at some point it is going to flood. LOL

I suspect that most local governments do not what to use the more stringent standards for several reasons:

1. They don't what to pay for all the additional studies when things are developed.

2. These standards would increase the cost of building in their locality and thus they would lose out on growth (more like tax revenue.)

3. If they have been relying on FEMA for all these years and change methods would highlight to everyone that they have been letting people build where they should not be building for years and turned a blind eye. But most people already can see that. Imagine the blow back if they starting doing these studies and all of a sudden it becomes apparent the magnitude of flooding that may happen when.

[alexava 6,973]

They also need lifts for each vehicle.....

[AuburnNTexas 7,147]

On 9/15/2017 at 11:45 AM, wdefromtx said:

A Post tension foundation will almost always be cheaper than using a pier and beam style foundation on a house. There could be exceptions, but usually depending on the depth of the piers the cost alone of them could exceed the cost of a PT foundation. I have designed both for a range of structures from houses to multi-story hotels etc.

As far as getting the structures out of the flood plain it is already required depending on which zone you are in. It is already in the IBC, but it is up to the local government to decide how they want to handle it. It seems that most defer to FEMA and their NFIP requirements. I this is why so many houses flooded that were never in any type of flood plain. Based on FEMA they did not have to raise them. 

Looking at the ASCE 24 code, it may have saved some of the houses from flooding, maybe not since this has been classified as a 1000yr event and that magnitude of event is not considered. If local municipalities used the ASCE guidelines it could have uncovered where there may be flooding in a 500 yr, that FEMA does not predict. In Katy out where I live we had basically 2 500yr floods in 2016 and most areas did not flood out houses. Some of the older portions did, but those historically always flood in extreme events. The other houses flooded not because they were in a FEMA flood plain, but rather they were adjacent to the Barker Reservoir which has a 104' elevation at the top of the levy. But they built houses with elevations of 97' and higher because the extreme event pool elevation of the Barker was 95'. We rented a house when we first moved down here which actually got flooded out. It was a nice house and we thought about buying until I looked at the elevations of the house compared to the levy. The house was at 99.5'. My first thought was if those levies are 104'....if that elevation is ever required all these houses are screwed since they are all on the reservoir side. Me being an engineer, I thought to myself if the extreme pool is 95' but the levy is 104' at some point it is going to flood. LOL

I suspect that most local governments do not what to use the more stringent standards for several reasons:

1. They don't what to pay for all the additional studies when things are developed.

2. These standards would increase the cost of building in their locality and thus they would lose out on growth (more like tax revenue.)

3. If they have been relying on FEMA for all these years and change methods would highlight to everyone that they have been letting people build where they should not be building for years and turned a blind eye. But most people already can see that. Imagine the blow back if they starting doing these studies and all of a sudden it becomes apparent the magnitude of flooding that may happen when.

Thank you that was an excellent explanation.