Yeah, Bush lied

[TexasTiger 12,949]

You're a fool if you don't believe it.

The Downing Street Memo reported that in a July 23, 2002 meeting between Prime Minister Blair and his war cabinet, attendees of the meeting discussed the fact that President Bush had already made up his mind to attack Iraq. According to the minutes of the meeting:

"There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action."

Yet, as the record below proves, President Bush claimed over and over after July 23rd until the war began that he had not made up his mind.

Bush: "Of course, I haven’t made up my mind we’re going to war with Iraq." [10/1/02]

Bush:"Hopefully, we can do this peacefully – don’t get me wrong. And if the world were to collectively come together to do so, and to put pressure on Saddam Hussein and convince him to disarm, there’s a chance he may decide to do that. And war is not my first choice, don’t – it’s my last choice." [11/7/02]

Bush: "This is our attempt to work with the world community to create peace. And the best way for peace is for Mr. Saddam Hussein to disarm. It’s up to him to make his decision." [12/4/02]

Bush: "You said we’re headed to war in Iraq – I don’t know why you say that. I hope we’re not headed to war in Iraq. I’m the person who gets to decide, not you. I hope this can be done peacefully." [12/31/02]

Bush: "First of all, you know, I’m hopeful we won’t have to go war, and let’s leave it at that." [1/2/03]

Bush: "But Saddam Hussein is – he’s treated the demands of the world as a joke up to now, and it was his choice to make. He’s the person who gets to decide war and peace." [2/7/03]

Bush:"I’ve not made up our mind about military action. Hopefully, this can be done peacefully.” [3/6/03]

Bush: "I want to remind you that it’s his choice to make as to whether or not we go to war. It’s Saddam’s choice. He’s the person that can make the choice of war and peace." [3/6/03]

Bush: "We are doing everything we can to avoid war in Iraq. But if Saddam Hussein does not disarm peacefully, he will be disarmed by force." [3/8/03]

Bush: "Should Saddam Hussein choose confrontation, the American people can know that every measure has been taken to avoid war, and every measure will be taken to win it." [3/17/03]

http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=1042

[AURaptor 1,125]

Actually, you gotta be a fool if you think that this in any way proves Bush lied.

Why can't you just let this go and accept being wrong?

It truly is amazing.

Enough w/ the obsessive/compulsive Bush activity. Seek professional help, if it bugs you that much.

[TexasTiger 12,949]

Actually, you gotta be a fool if  you think that this in any way proves Bush lied.

Why can't you just let this go and accept being wrong?

It truly is amazing.

Enough w/ the obsessive/compulsive Bush activity. Seek professional help, if it bugs you that much.

162850[/snapback]

The board's top fool steps to the plate. Let it go? You're still hung up over Kerry. This is your virtuous, return honor to the White House guy who engaged us in a war with over 1700 American servicemen dead. I know you don't give a second thought to their sacrifice, but its still relevant.

So you think Bush truly had not made up mind to attack Iraq until the last minute? Yeah, that's not foolish...

[AURaptor 1,125]

Actually, you gotta be a fool if  you think that this in any way proves Bush lied.

Why can't you just let this go and accept being wrong?

It truly is amazing.

Enough w/ the obsessive/compulsive Bush activity. Seek professional help, if it bugs you that much.

162850[/snapback]

The board's top fool steps to the plate. Let it go? You're still hung up over Kerry. This is your virtuous, return honor to the White House guy who engaged us in a war with over 1700 American servicemen dead. I know you don't give a second thought to their sacrifice, but its still relevant.

So you think Bush truly had not made up mind to attack Iraq until the last minute? Yeah, that's not foolish...

162851[/snapback]

Where in this thread was Kerry ever brought up? Oh, I remember, no where, except by you. . Hung up on a loser? My, your mind does work over time these days, huh?

And you're out of the gate w/ the petty ad hominems, I see.

Bush had a plan to invade Iraq. Big deal. So did Clinton. Funny how you see only what you want to , though. 17 U.N. violations and a few broken promises from the Gulf War doesn't seem like justification to go to war...... well, nothing seems to be justification....not when a Republican is in the W.H.

So Bush and Blair were busy getting their ducks in a row should the President have to ask Congress for permission to use military force. ( They did, btw...a fact you seem to overlook when convieniant ) Are you seriously so petty / naive to think that Bush should have telegraphed his intentions to Iraq months in advance, complete w/ troop deployment intel, possible 1st and 2nd strike locations and maybe even our supply line routes? So because he didn't 'come clean', as you put it, that makes him a liar ? Boy, you truly live in BOZO world.

[TrueBlue72 0]

Raptor, you should know by now that the libbies are NEVER wrong!!! They are often misquoted, sometimes misunderstood, occasionally caught between nuances, at times factually challenged but NEVER wrong. If you don't believe me, just ask one of them!

It's just that we poor stupid conservatives can't see past the facts and understand that the libbies ideas are far beyond being confined by fact, truth and reason.

[TexasTiger 12,949]

Actually, you gotta be a fool if  you think that this in any way proves Bush lied.

Why can't you just let this go and accept being wrong?

It truly is amazing.

Enough w/ the obsessive/compulsive Bush activity. Seek professional help, if it bugs you that much.

162850[/snapback]

The board's top fool steps to the plate. Let it go? You're still hung up over Kerry. This is your virtuous, return honor to the White House guy who engaged us in a war with over 1700 American servicemen dead. I know you don't give a second thought to their sacrifice, but its still relevant.

So you think Bush truly had not made up mind to attack Iraq until the last minute? Yeah, that's not foolish...

162851[/snapback]

Where in this thread was Kerry ever brought up? Oh, I remember, no where, except by you. . Hung up on a loser? My, your mind does work over time these days, huh?

And you're out of the gate w/ the petty ad hominems, I see.

Bush had a plan to invade Iraq. Big deal. So did Clinton. Funny how you see only what you want to , though. 17 U.N. violations and a few broken promises from the Gulf War doesn't seem like justification to go to war...... well, nothing seems to be justification....not when a Republican is in the W.H.

So Bush and Blair were busy getting their ducks in a row should the President have to ask Congress for permission to use military force. ( They did, btw...a fact you seem to overlook when convieniant ) Are you seriously so petty / naive to think that Bush should have telegraphed his intentions to Iraq months in advance, complete w/ troop deployment intel, possible 1st and 2nd strike locations and maybe even our supply line routes? So because he didn't 'come clean', as you put it, that makes him a liar ? Boy, you truly live in BOZO world.

162855[/snapback]

You chimed in on a Kerry bash earlier today. You rarely miss an opportunity. That's fine. It's your time. Spend it as you wish. Just pointing out your hypocrisy.

You call someone a fool and tell him to seek professional help and complain about ad hominems? At least you're consistently hypocritical.

So Clinton had a plan to attack Iraq just like Bush? I thought the critique on Bill was that he was too much of wimp to ever do it? Make up your mind. Is "So did Clinton" a good retort or not?

Yeah, I said he should provide the media troop deployment plans. Boy, you got me on that one. You can never just address someone's actual position because your arguments are far too weak. You have to exaggerate, embellish...in fact if Gore did what you do routinely you'd say that he was lying. Liars defending liars. Big surprise.

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

[AURaptor 1,125]

It's just that we poor stupid conservatives can't see past the facts and understand that the libbies ideas are far beyond being confined by fact, truth and reason.

Yeps. We're just a bunch of inbred, dumb , frat boy 'necks who don't know enough to come in from the rain, just like our beloved leader, W. If only the President were as smart, introspective and thoughful as say....John Kerry? Oh, wait.... he already is.

D'oh!

[TexasTiger 12,949]

It's just that we poor stupid conservatives can't see past the facts and understand that the libbies ideas are far beyond being confined by fact, truth and reason.

Yeps. We're just a bunch of inbred, dumb , frat boy 'necks who don't know enough to come in from the rain, just like our beloved leader, W. If only the President were as smart, introspective and thoughful as say....John Kerry? Oh, wait.... he already is.

D'oh!

162858[/snapback]

Where in this thread was Kerry ever brought up? Oh, I remember, no where, except by you. . Hung up on a loser?

You really make it too easy. Nah, you're not obsessed.

[AURaptor 1,125]

You really make it too easy. Nah, you're not obsessed.

Reeled ya in pretty easy w/ that one, eh? -----------------------<><

I guess the concept of chronological order hasn't qiute made it to your part of the galaxy yet, huh?

It may, just give it time.

That Kerry comment was just a lil ex post facto langinappe for ya. Glad you enjoyed.

[Tiger Al 0]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

[TexasTiger 12,949]

You really make it too easy. Nah, you're not obsessed.

Reeled ya in pretty easy w/ that one, eh? -----------------------<><

I guess the concept of chronological order hasn't qiute made it to your part of the galaxy yet, huh?

It may, just give it time.

162867[/snapback]

Actually, it just shows how gosh darn predictable you are.

[AURaptor 1,125]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

[AURaptor 1,125]

Actually, it just shows how gosh darn predictable you are.

Again, you miss the whole concept of chronological order, ex post facto....never mind, it'd take too long for you to understand.

[Tiger Al 0]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

It's a fair enough question. You DO beat the war drum louder than most. Why hang out on the sidelines with the cheerleaders when you can suit up and get in the game and get you a little "Hooah?"

[TexasTiger 12,949]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

You bet it is. You even said on another thread that we need more troops there. Recruiting is way, way down. The big Hawks need to step up and put their ass where their mouth is.

[AURaptor 1,125]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

It's a fair enough question. You DO beat the war drum louder than most. Why hang out on the sidelines with the cheerleaders when you can suit up and get in the game and get you a little "Hooah?"

162872[/snapback]

Nope, sorry guys. Not a fair question. My reasons are my own. But at least I'm for the troops, unlike y'all.

And btw, Bush didn't lie.

[TexasTiger 12,949]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

It's a fair enough question. You DO beat the war drum louder than most. Why hang out on the sidelines with the cheerleaders when you can suit up and get in the game and get you a little "Hooah?"

162872[/snapback]

Nope, sorry guys. Not a fair question. My reasons are my own. But at least I'm for the troops, unlike y'all.

And btw, Bush didn't lie.

162874[/snapback]

Toughest guy on the internet, not so tough in real life...

[AURaptor 1,125]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

It's a fair enough question. You DO beat the war drum louder than most. Why hang out on the sidelines with the cheerleaders when you can suit up and get in the game and get you a little "Hooah?"

162872[/snapback]

Nope, sorry guys. Not a fair question. My reasons are my own. But at least I'm for the troops, unlike y'all.

And btw, Bush didn't lie.

162874[/snapback]

Toughest guy on the internet, not so tough in real life...

162877[/snapback]

You're welcome to say that to my face any time you'd like.

[Tiger Al 0]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

It's a fair enough question. You DO beat the war drum louder than most. Why hang out on the sidelines with the cheerleaders when you can suit up and get in the game and get you a little "Hooah?"

162872[/snapback]

Nope, sorry guys. Not a fair question. My reasons are my own. But at least I'm for the troops, unlike y'all.

And btw, Bush didn't lie.

162874[/snapback]

Toughest guy on the internet, not so tough in real life...

162877[/snapback]

His idol IS Bush.

[TexasTiger 12,949]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

It's a fair enough question. You DO beat the war drum louder than most. Why hang out on the sidelines with the cheerleaders when you can suit up and get in the game and get you a little "Hooah?"

162872[/snapback]

Nope, sorry guys. Not a fair question. My reasons are my own. But at least I'm for the troops, unlike y'all.

And btw, Bush didn't lie.

162874[/snapback]

Toughest guy on the internet, not so tough in real life...

162877[/snapback]

You're welcome to say that to my face any time you'd like.

162880[/snapback]

If you're willing to get so tough over something as meaningless as your ego, why not the war you claim to support so much? How about watching the backs of the troops you claim to support so much more than those of us who never wanted them there in the first place? Not a fair question? Of course your reasons are your reasons. But a question isn't unfair just because you are uncomfortable with the truthful answer that you are not willing to put yourself on the line. Your support is limited to insulting those of us who actually care about the troops well being.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Al and Texas, you two are the first to get your frilly pink panties in a wad whenever someone questions your support for the troops. Now, you're attacking Raptor for the same thing. Why don't you two get off his case. If he has personal reasons for not joining up, so be it. I can respect that.

Since you are such a tough guy Tex, why don't you get out from behind Al's skirt and tell us why you aren't serving.

[AUloggerhead 2,238]

FDR lied. Link

Franklin Roosevelt often lied to further his goals. In a radio address broadcast to the nation on 23 October 1940, for example, he gave "this most solemn assurance" that he had not given any "secret understanding in any shape or form, direct or indirect, with any government or any other nation in any part of the world, to involve this nation in any war or for any other purpose." But American, British and Polish documents (mostly released many years later) proved that this "most solemn assurance" was a bald-faced lie. Roosevelt had, in fact, made numerous secret arrangements to involve the U.S. in war.

Of all his speeches, perhaps the best example of Roosevelt's readiness to lie is his 1941 Navy Day address broadcast over nationwide radio on 27 October.

A lot had happened in the months preceding that address. On 11 March 1941 Roosevelt signed the Lend-Lease bill into law, permitting increased deliveries of military aid to Britain in violation of U.S. neutrality and international law. In April Roosevelt illegally sent U.S. troops to occupy Greenland. On 27 May he proclaimed a state of "unlimited national emergency," a kind of presidential declaration of war that circumvented a power constitutionally reserved to Congress. Following the Axis attack against the USSR in June, the Roosevelt administration began delivering enormous quantities of military aid to the beleagured Soviets. These shipments also blatantly violated international law. In July Roosevelt illegally sent American troops to occupy Iceland.

The President began his Navy Day address by recalling that German submarines had torpedoed the U.S. destroyer Greer on 4 September 1941 and the U.S. destroyer Kearny on 17 October. In highly emotional language, he characterized these incidents as unprovoked acts of aggression directed against all Americans. He declared that although he had wanted to avoid conflict, shooting had begun and "history has recorded who fired the first shot." What Roosevelt deliberately failed to mention was the fact that in each case the U.S. destroyers had been engaged in attack operations against the submarines, which fired in self-defense only as a last resort. Hitler wanted to avoid war with the United States, and had expressly ordered German submarines to avoid conflicts with U.S warships at all costs, except to avoid imminent destruction. Roosevelt's standing "shoot on sight" orders to the U.S Navy were specifically designed to make incidents like the ones he so piously condemned inevitable. His provocative efforts to goad Hitler into declaring war against the U.S. had failed and most Americans still opposed direct involvement in the European conflict.

And so, in an effort to convince his listeners that Germany was a real threat to American security, Roosevelt continued his Navy Day speech with a startling announcement: "Hitler has often protested that his plans for conquest do not extend across the Atlantic Ocean. I have in my possession a secret map, made in Germany by Hitler's government-by the planners of the new world order. It is a map of South America and a part of Central America as Hitler proposes to reorganize it." This map, the President explained, showed South America, as well as "our great life line, the Panama Canal," divided into five vassal states under German domination. "That map, my friends, makes clear the Nazi design not only against South America but against the United States as well."

Roosevelt went on to reveal that he also had in his possession "another document made in Germany by Hitler's government. It is a detailed plan to abolish all existing religions -- Catholic, Protestant, Mohammedan, Hindu, Buddhist, and Jewish alike" which Germany will impose "on a dominated world, if Hitler wins."

"The property of all churches will be seized by the Reich and its puppets. The cross and all other symbols of religion are to be for- bidden. The clergy are to be ever liquidated. In the place of the churches of our civilization there is to be set up an international Nazi church, a church which will be served by orators sent out by the Nazi government. And in the place of the Bible, the words of Mein Kampf will be imposed and enforced as Holy Writ. And in the place of the cross of Christ will be put two symbols: the swastika and the naked sword."

Roosevelt emphasized the importances of his "revelations" by declaring: "Let us well ponder these grim truths which I have told you of the present and future plans of Hitlerism" All Americans, he said, "are faced with the choice between the kind of world we want to live in and the kind of world which Hitler and his hordes would impose on us." Accordingly, "we are pledged to pull our own oar in the destruction of Hitlerism." The German government immediately responded to Roosevelt's speech by denouncing his "documents" as preposterous frauds. The Italian government declared that if Roosevelt did not publish his map "within 24 hours, he will acquire a sky high reputation as a forger." At a press conference the next day, a reporter rather naturally asked the President for a copy of the "secret map." But Roosevelt refused, insisting only that it came from "a source which is undoubtedly reliable."

As has often happened, the truth about the map did not emerge until many years after the war: It was a forgery produced by the British intelligence service, most probably at its technical laboratory in Ontario, Canada. William Stephenson (code name: Intrepid), chief of British intelligence operations in North America, passed it on to U.S. intelligence chief William Donovan, who gave it to Roosevelt. In a memoir published in late 1984, war-time British agent Ivar Bryce claimed credit for thinking up the "secret map" scheme. Of course, the other "document" cited by Roosevelt, purporting to outline German plans to abolish the world's religions, was just as fraudulent as the "secret map."

Some U.S. officials were concerned about British wartime ef- forts to deceive the American government and people. In a 5 September 1941 memorandum forwarded to Secretary of State Cordell Hull, Assistant Secretary of State Adolf Berle warned that British intelligence agents were manufacturing phony documents detailing supposed German conspiracies. Americans should be "on our guard" against these British-invented "false scares," Berle concluded.

It's doubtful if any of Roosevelt's great contemporaries, including Stalin, Hitler and even Churchill, ever delivered a speech as loaded with falsehoods as brazen as those in his 1941 Navy Day address. On at least one occasion, Roosevelt privately admitted his willingness to lie to further his goals. During a conversation on 14 May 1942 with his close Jewish adviser, Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, Jr., the President candidly remarked: "I may have one policy for Europe and one diametrically opposite for North and South America. I maybe entirely inconsistent, and furthermore, I am perfectly willing to mislead and tell untruths if it will help us win the war."

People died 407,317 US military (combat + other.) Link

Dang. All that sacrifice to support a lying, egotisical, power-hungry tyrant that not only had every intention of getting the US into a shooting war (and eventually did,) but he also orderded the imprisonment of his own citizens for years without charges or trial in an American Gulag, euphemistically called "Internment Camps." Just look at the dates for the official War Plans that were being drawn up: Link

I mean there were plans to go to war with Japan back in the 1930's and the US & Britain were conducting joint planning for operations against Germany as early as May 1940 -- a year and a half prior to actually being at war!

You are a FOOL if you don't believe FDR had his mind set on going to war prior to actually announcing war with Germany or Japan.

[AURaptor 1,125]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

It's a fair enough question. You DO beat the war drum louder than most. Why hang out on the sidelines with the cheerleaders when you can suit up and get in the game and get you a little "Hooah?"

162872[/snapback]

Nope, sorry guys. Not a fair question. My reasons are my own. But at least I'm for the troops, unlike y'all.

And btw, Bush didn't lie.

162874[/snapback]

Toughest guy on the internet, not so tough in real life...

162877[/snapback]

You're welcome to say that to my face any time you'd like.

162880[/snapback]

If you're willing to get so tough over something as meaningless as your ego, why not the war you claim to support so much? How about watching the backs of the troops you claim to support so much more than those of us who never wanted them there in the first place? Not a fair question? Of course your reasons are your reasons. But a question isn't unfair just because you are uncomfortable with the truthful answer that you are not willing to put yourself on the line. Your support is limited to insulting those of us who actually care about the troops well being.

162882[/snapback]

Toughest guy on the internet, not so tough in real life..

Gee, I never once remotely suggested that, so I find it funny you think so. Clearly, your intent was to goad and insult me, so don't then turn tail and try to spin it as being about something as 'meaningless' as my ego. Very clever of you, but also it shows how petty and disingenuous you really are.

By your faulty logic, only those IN the military can show support for the military. Only those who have passed a BAR exam can have an opinion about legal case. Only those who have ever played college football can ever cheer at a football game. Etc....No, you're intent is to try to ridicule and harrass those vast number of folks who never enroll in the services yet still support them. Nice try, but no sale.

[TexasTiger 12,949]

BTW, since you are so macho and pro-war, why haven't you signed up yet?

Raptor?

162868[/snapback]

Really not anyone's concern now, is it ?

162870[/snapback]

It's a fair enough question. You DO beat the war drum louder than most. Why hang out on the sidelines with the cheerleaders when you can suit up and get in the game and get you a little "Hooah?"

162872[/snapback]

Nope, sorry guys. Not a fair question. My reasons are my own. But at least I'm for the troops, unlike y'all.

And btw, Bush didn't lie.

162874[/snapback]

Toughest guy on the internet, not so tough in real life...

162877[/snapback]

You're welcome to say that to my face any time you'd like.

162880[/snapback]

If you're willing to get so tough over something as meaningless as your ego, why not the war you claim to support so much? How about watching the backs of the troops you claim to support so much more than those of us who never wanted them there in the first place? Not a fair question? Of course your reasons are your reasons. But a question isn't unfair just because you are uncomfortable with the truthful answer that you are not willing to put yourself on the line. Your support is limited to insulting those of us who actually care about the troops well being.

162882[/snapback]

Toughest guy on the internet, not so tough in real life..

Gee, I never once remotely suggested that, so I find it funny you think so. Clearly, your intent was to goad and insult me, so don't then turn tail and try to spin it as being about something as 'meaningless' as my ego. Very clever of you, but also it shows how petty and disingenuous you really are.

By your faulty logic, only those IN the military can show support for the military. Only those who have passed a BAR exam can have an opinion about legal case. Only those who have ever played college football can ever cheer at a football game. Etc....No, you're intent is to try to ridicule and harrass those vast number of folks who never enroll in the services yet still support them. Nice try, but no sale.

162902[/snapback]

Not at all. But you repeatedly claim that you are more supportive of the troops than those of us who opposed ever invading Iraq. You are routinely insulting and demeaning to those who hold a different opinion on this topic than you. Those with different opinions from you are supposedly weak on terrorism, etc, etc. If you truly support these efforts, join up. This isn't complicated. Pat Tillman did it. Warm bodies are desperately needed. But you just talk tough from the safety of your keyboard. I don't think you support the troops. I think you bend over backwards to justify and excuse those who make the decisions that make the troops existence far more dangerous and perilous and use the troops as a prop to defend your positions. I honestly doubt you give a second thought to the sacrifice of those whose names are released after having been killed in action. I doubt you have ever shed a tear for any of them. I'm sure you are far too "manly" for that.

[AURaptor 1,125]

TexasTiger.. your attempt to spin this topic into a personal attack toward me only goes to show that you have nothing to support your claims.

Worse, you've displayed your inferiority complex on an Auburn board, for all to see.

I'll not play at your petty level.

Bush didn't lie, you know it, and it's just eating you up inside.

Learn to cope, brother....you'll live longer.