Fascism (right), communism (left))

[auburnatl1 4,920]

I keep seeing people calling the other side fascists. Hurts my head. . Lets tighten this up  - run away extreme right is normally fascism, run away extreme left is normally communism. There is nuance to these generalizations, but it’s close enough.  Per their definitions:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader

Communism (from Latincommunis, 'common, universal')^[1][2] is a left-wingto far-left sociopolitical, philosophical, and economicideology within the socialist movement.

To date, communism has consistently evolved into an authoritarian structure (ie Russia, China), so ironically the 2 extreme opposites have ended up at the same place.

As we start the election season I was simply hoping we could  at least smear each other accurately. 

[Leftfield 2,601]

2 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

I keep seeing people calling the other side fascists. Hurts my head. . Lets tighten this up  - run away extreme right is normally fascism, run away extreme left is normally communism. There is nuance to these generalizations, but it’s close enough.  Per their definitions:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader

Communism (from Latincommunis, 'common, universal')^[1][2] is a left-wingto far-left sociopolitical, philosophical, and economicideology within the socialist movement.

To date, communism has consistently evolved into an authoritarian structure (ie Russia, China), so ironically the 2 extreme opposites have ended up at the same place.

As we start the election season I was simply hoping we could  at least smear each other accurately. 

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_Theory#:~:text=Horseshoe Theory is an idea,used as argument for centrism.

 

[auburnatl1 4,920]

Just now, Leftfield said:

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_Theory#:~:text=Horseshoe Theory is an idea,used as argument for centrism.

 

Crap. Thats where I was going damn it😎. Beat me to it. The 2 extremes I see tearing each other apart oon this site might actually be soul mates. As I’ve argued before, democracy is about moderation.

[homersapien 11,373]

1 hour ago, Leftfield said:

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_Theory#:~:text=Horseshoe Theory is an idea,used as argument for centrism.

 

I embraced that model at a relatively young age. (Largely due to a lecture in jr. high.)

But the history of the 20th century makes it rather obvious IMO.

Edited January 10 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,373]

1 hour ago, auburnatl1 said:

Crap. Thats where I was going damn it😎. Beat me to it. The 2 extremes I see tearing each other apart oon this site might actually be soul mates. As I’ve argued before, democracy is about moderation.

Speaking for myself, I believe our current position on the spectrum is very biased toward the fascism side of the continuum.  That's true in other countries as well.

IMO, the extreme on the other side - Communism - has pretty much lost all credibility in terms of producing prosperity for it's people, thanks to the collapse of the Soviet Union (for example).

But fascism continues to attract (unfortunately).  Perhaps the transition from laissez fair market capitalism to Fascism is easier politically in this country in light of the loss of credibility of communism? I would say so.

One could argue Russia - and a few other communist countries - shifted from communism to fascism without experiencing democracy. It went from communism to oligarchy to authoritarian very quickly. 

But then, democracy is alien to their historical experience.

 

Edited January 10 by homersapien

[PUB78 1,358]

On 1/10/2024 at 12:24 PM, homersapien said:

Speaking for myself, I believe our current position on the spectrum is very biased toward the fascism side of the continuum.  That's true in other countries as well.

IMO, the extreme on the other side - Communism - has pretty much lost all credibility in terms of producing prosperity for it's people, thanks to the collapse of the Soviet Union (for example).

But fascism continues to attract (unfortunately).  Perhaps the transition from laissez fair market capitalism to Fascism is easier politically in this country in light of the loss of credibility of communism? I would say so.

One could argue Russia - and a few other communist countries - shifted from communism to fascism without experiencing democracy. It went from communism to oligarchy to authoritarian very quickly. 

But then, democracy is alien to their historical experience.

 

Homer, 

You nailed it in your 2nd, 4th and 5th paragraphs. The other two, not so much.

[homersapien 11,373]

1 hour ago, PUB78 said:

Homer, 

You nailed it in your 2nd, 4th and 5th paragraphs. The other two, not so much.

You don't think authoritarianism is on the rise globally?  Search:  "Global rise in authoritarianism"

Do you think Trump is authoritarian?  Search: "Trump authoritarian"

[PUB78 1,358]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

You don't think authoritarianism is on the rise globally?  Search:  "Global rise in authoritarianism"

Do you think Trump is authoritarian?  Search: "Trump authoritarian"

Yes to your first question, but no to your 2nd. Trump is a bully, egomaniac and a super jerk, but he is not a dictator, yet.

[Leftfield 2,601]

45 minutes ago, PUB78 said:

....but he is not a dictator, yet.

Well, he said authoritarian, but your answer confirmed it, anyway.

[homersapien 11,373]

19 hours ago, PUB78 said:

Yes to your first question, but no to your 2nd. Trump is a bully, egomaniac and a super jerk, but he is not a dictator, yet.

The operative word in that response is "yet".

When someone tells you who they are - in both words and actions - believe them.

 

https://www.witf.org/2022/11/15/donald-trump-president-run-again/

Donald Trump, only president to obstruct peaceful transfer of power, to run again

 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-says-wont-dictator-elected-day-one-rcna128267

Trump says he won't be a dictator if elected, 'except for Day One'

 

And regarding my comment about the global rise of authoritarianism:

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2022/global-expansion-authoritarian-rule

The Global Expansion of Authoritarian Rule

 

 

 

 

[PUB78 1,358]

On 1/12/2024 at 1:46 PM, homersapien said:

The operative word in that response is "yet".

When someone tells you who they are - in both words and actions - believe them.

 

https://www.witf.org/2022/11/15/donald-trump-president-run-again/

Donald Trump, only president to obstruct peaceful transfer of power, to run again

 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-says-wont-dictator-elected-day-one-rcna128267

Trump says he won't be a dictator if elected, 'except for Day One'

 

And regarding my comment about the global rise of authoritarianism:

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2022/global-expansion-authoritarian-rule

The Global Expansion of Authoritarian Rule

 

 

 

 

I can’t say I 100% disagree with you that our country maybe headed towards a more authoritarian national government. However, it maybe headed that way  despite of who is elected as President in 2024.

 

On 1/12/2024 at 1:46 PM, homersapien said:

The operative word in that response is "yet".

When someone tells you who they are - in both words and actions - believe them.

 

https://www.witf.org/2022/11/15/donald-trump-president-run-again/

Donald Trump, only president to obstruct peaceful transfer of power, to run again

 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-says-wont-dictator-elected-day-one-rcna128267

Trump says he won't be a dictator if elected, 'except for Day One'

 

And regarding my comment about the global rise of authoritarianism:

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2022/global-expansion-authoritarian-rule

The Global Expansion of Authoritarian Rule

 

 

 

 

 

[AU9377 4,931]

1 hour ago, PUB78 said:

I can’t say I 100% disagree with you that our country maybe headed towards a more authoritarian national government. However, it maybe headed that way  despite of who is elected as President in 2024.

 

 

The thing that we do have is a process by which to effectuate change.  The problem gets really messy when the electorate has been systematically misinformed and developed a mentality that views compromise as evil.  Then you risk having a democracy wherein the people choose a fascist leadership style.

[PUB78 1,358]

19 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

The thing that we do have is a process by which to effectuate change.  The problem gets really messy when the electorate has been systematically misinformed and developed a mentality that views compromise as evil.  Then you risk having a democracy wherein the people choose a fascist leadership style.

At one time, politics was the art of compromise. Now it is the waging of war,  sadly.

[ScotsAU 1,331]

TLDR most of this. I actually buy more into the 2 spectrum model that separates views on social/moral issues from economic ones in terms of regulation amount. It gives essentially 5 political views:

- conservatives strongly support economic deregulation and moral regulation 

-libertarians support deregulation of both

-liberals support moral deregulation but economic regulation

-populists support regulation of both

-moderates that don’t fit cleanly in any box and/or fall in the middle of one or more spectrums 

Using this model, here’s how you’d classify extremists at each and a political leader that endorses that philosophy.

conservative- examples- Nicki Haley, Ronald Regan, Both Bush presidents; extremist conservatives would be fascists

libertarian- examples- Ron Paul (Rand is kind of in between a conservative and a libertarian),  Gary Johnson; extremist libertarians are anarchists 

liberal- examples- Bernie Sanders,  AOC; extremists would be communists (but note the comment below)

populist- Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis; extremists would be Leninist Communists

Someone above mentioned that communism often turns into authoritarianism. Those governments were never truly communist because they suppressed moral and social freedom. They were what’s known as Leninist Marxist. The leaders wanted both control over business and society, and used their government influence to do it. Case in point with DeSantis… a conservative would stay out of the affairs of businesses. But he’s gone to war with Disney. With Trump, trade wars and NAFTA withdrawal. A conservative position is to open trading connections and allow the free market to operate. They’d support things that allow our companies and entrepreneurs to succeed internationally. Starting a trade war is actually more of an economically liberal approach. For the record, Bernie Sanders was a big fan of withdrawing from NAFTA. But virtually no other conservatives backed that plan.

 

 

 

 

[homersapien 11,373]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:01 PM, PUB78 said:

At one time, politics was the art of compromise. Now it is the waging of war,  sadly.

Thank you, Newt.