Charter schools perform worse than public schools

[CShine 0]

The first national comparison of test scores among children in charter schools and regular public schools shows charter school students often doing worse than comparable students in regular public schools.

The findings, buried in mountains of data the Education Department released without public announcement, dealt a blow to supporters of the charter school movement, including the Bush administration.

The data shows fourth graders attending charter schools performing about half a year behind students in other public schools in both reading and math. Put another way, only 25 percent of the fourth graders attending charters were proficient in reading and math, against 30 percent who were proficient in reading, and 32 percent in math, at traditional public schools.

Because charter schools are concentrated in cities, often in poor neighborhoods, the researchers also compared urban charters to traditional schools in cities. They looked at low-income children in both settings, and broke down the results by race and ethnicity as well. In virtually all instances, the charter students did worse than their counterparts in regular public schools.

Charters are expected to grow exponentially under the new federal education law, No Child Left Behind, which holds out conversion to charter schools as one solution for chronically failing traditional schools.

"The scores are low, dismayingly low," said Chester E. Finn Jr., a supporter of charters and president of the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation, who was among those who asked the administration to do the comparison.

Mr. Finn, an assistant secretary of education in the Reagan administration, said the quality of charter schools across the country varied widely, and he predicted that the results would make those overseeing charters demand more in the way of performance.

"A little more tough love is needed for these schools," Mr. Finn said. "Somebody needs to be watching over their shoulders."

Mr. Finn and other backers of charter schools contended, however, that the findings should be considered as "baseline data," and could reflect the predominance of children in these schools who turned to charters after having had severe problems at their neighborhood schools.

The results, based on the 2003 National Assessment of Educational Progress, commonly known as the nation's report card, were unearthed from online data by researchers at the American Federation of Teachers, which provided them to The New York Times. The organization has historically supported charter schools but has produced research in recent years raising doubts about the expansion of charter schools.

Charters are self-governing public schools, often run by private companies, which operate outside the authority of local school boards, and have greater flexibility than traditional public schools in areas of policy, hiring and teaching techniques.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/educatio...charter.html?hp

[DKW 86 7,440]

I know you will want to change the Thread title. Charter schools are still public schools and THAT is the problem.

Often? Please define "often." Is it one, two or ten percent?

Please Define "Charter School" And Also define where those students attending Charter Schools were previously. Sounds to me the Charters are playing catchup for the damage done while the students were in Public Schools.

BTW, The Conservative and Bush Administration Policies on Education have never changed. The ENTIRE problem here is not "Charter" but "Public." Get these kids in a private school for say two years and then test them again.

Private schools "OFTEN" cost less than "Public" and yeild far better results.

GO Vouchers!!!!! It is what the non-racists want tho so the Dems cannot support them....

[WarTim 3,457]

Private Schools produce educated children. public schools produce liberal voters.

[Rockthecasbah6 0]

Ain't that the truth

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Well, let's give the charter schools a little more time to work out the kinks. I mean, we've given regular public schools decades of declining performance to get their act together. It's the least we can do to see if we can creatively fix the problem.

[AUJarhead 70]

Titan, do you think it's the schools so much as a sign of the times? My wife is a public school teacher. When we lived in Atlanta, she worked at an inner city school teaching 4th grade. Since I'm usually off every Friday, once or twice a month, I'd go into the classroom and read to the kids. One Friday, a girl came up to me as I was about to leave, and told she had never had an male read her a story.

The biggest difference between the school she was at, as opposed to the school where she teaches now (at a small public school in a small town outside St Louis) can be best illustrated as such.

In Atlanta, with a classroom of 25-30 students, she would ask for parental volunteers for a class field trip. She'd be lucky if she got 2. In out small town now, she has a class of 17, and when asking for volunteers, she got 15, and had to turn some away.

I get a little touchy when people start bashing public schools, as I know that my wife works very long hours during the school year, she's usually at school at 6:45, and usually leaves around 4, and then does lesson plans until 8 or 9. All this for minimal pay. I'll certainly conceed that not all teachers are like her, but I think that a good deal of the problems in public school stem from the students home life, too.

[Tigermike 3,053]

Well, let's give the charter schools a little more time to work out the kinks. I mean, we've given regular public schools decades of declining performance to get their act together. It's the least we can do to see if we can creatively fix the problem.

Yes they do need more time but even more importantly they need more money! That should fix the problem, just appropriate several hundred more million$$$$$ and that will fix the problem.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Titan, do you think it's the schools so much as a sign of the times? My wife is a public school teacher. When we lived in Atlanta, she worked at an inner city school teaching 4th grade. Since I'm usually off every Friday, once or twice a month, I'd go into the classroom and read to the kids. One Friday, a girl came up to me as I was about to leave, and told she had never had an male read her a story.

The biggest difference between the school she was at, as opposed to the school where she teaches now (at a small public school in a small town outside St Louis) can be best illustrated as such.

In Atlanta, with a classroom of 25-30 students, she would ask for parental volunteers for a class field trip. She'd be lucky if she got 2. In out small town now, she has a class of 17, and when asking for volunteers, she got 15, and had to turn some away.

I get a little touchy when people start bashing public schools, as I know that my wife works very long hours during the school year, she's usually at school at 6:45, and usually leaves around 4, and then does lesson plans until 8 or 9. All this for minimal pay. I'll certainly conceed that not all teachers are like her, but I think that a good deal of the problems in public school stem from the students home life, too.

My sister in law is a public school teacher. So is my uncle, aunt and a cousin. And my grandmother was also a teacher. I'm well acquainted with the struggles and challenges there. But the truth is, the public school system is a system in dire need of reform. They need some fresh ideas. They need some competition. And they need the teacher's union to stop always fighting for the status quo. Charter schools are just one way to think outside the box. Vouchers are another possibility. But throwing more money at it isn't going to work. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[Tigermike 3,053]

But the truth is, the public school system is a system in dire need of reform. They need some fresh ideas. They need some competition. And they need the teacher's union to stop always fighting for the status quo. Charter schools are just one way to think outside the box. Vouchers are another possibility. But throwing more money at it isn't going to work. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Completely agree and when you add in a reduction in the bureaucracy, waste and fraud at the top and then there could be good things happening for all our school children.

[WarTim 3,457]

Let me make this CLEAR. I am not now nor would I ever suggest that the majority of Teachers in the public school systems are not great folks attempting to do a very tough job.

The problem with public schools is GOVERNMENT and the TEACHER's U N I O N.

THAT is, and always has been and always will be, the problem ! ! ! !

I am very thankful that I had some really great teachers, and so did my children.

The TEACHERS, for the most part, are NOT the problem.

I will go even one step further, because of the system , the teachers CAN'T do their best ! ! ! ! !

[Weagle98 119]

Current Teacher unions are one of the biggest barriers to adequate public teaching. My wife is a teacher. There are four teachers in her grade level, one is Incompetent. Last year my wife had 21 kids in her class and this one teacher had 15. One of the 15 transferred to my wives class at the midterm - the kid had 5 reading points, which is VERY low. By the end of the year the kid had well over 50. The average in my wives class was about 90. There are several other examples of this but overall, the teacher wasn't teaching or motivating the students to learn. The principle knew it but couldn't do a dang thing about it. She had been "teaching" for 20 or so years. In private school she would have simply been fired just like any other job.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Tenure needs to be adjusted to fit what I believe it was originally intended to protect: a teacher's academic freedom. It prevented nervous administrators from firing a teacher or professor simply for teaching controversial subjects or expressing controversial opinions. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

What it seems to have evolved into is protection against almost any grounds for firing them. You practically have to get a congressional order to get rid of a bad teacher with tenure and that's crap. What other career can someone consistently deliver sub-par results and stay on the payroll?

[DKW 86 7,440]

I have a sister, a neice, a nephew, a sister-in-law, etc. and I my self could be teaching soon as well. The problem is not "The teachers." It is a bureaucracy that wont/cant rid itself of incompetence and failure.

Throwing more and more and more $$$ at the problem has not solved a single thing. It is insanity as pointed out above. We need vouchers!!!!

I am telling you NCLB is only a stepping stone to vouchers.

Kerry is talking about not "full funding" NCLB. Guess who missed the debate and vote for full funding of NCLB? Anyone want a guess..?

Why Senators Kerry and Edwards of course.

[AUJarhead 70]

It is a bureaucracy that wont/cant rid itself of incompetence and failure.

I'll agree with that. While we were in Atlanta, every year, my wife would get a 4th grader who could barely read. By the end of the year, that child would be reading at a K or 1st grade level. However, when that student would test, they would fail, and my wife would look bad. That's the bureaucracy that's failed. First, that child never should have been promoted to 4th grade. Second, to say that a teacher isn't doing her job because a student that couldn't read is now reading, but not as well as the others, is complete crap.

And Tim, I know you wouldn't bash my wife! She got her degree at Auburn!!