Honest question for the dems

[BamaGrad03 0]

Since the statement in the past has ALWAYS been 'military service has no bearing on how well a guy can run the country'....why all of the sudden is that ALL kerry and kerry apologists want to talk about?

Seriously...why cant the man talk about what hes done to make the country a better place in the last 30 years? Is no one concerned that a guy who might be president doesnt want to talk about his voting habits?

Why in the WORLD does he think he is the man for the job...if he cant make the case to america based on his political record?

I thought the convention was a time for us to learn what he was all about.

But all i heard was about his war history, how terrible a person bush is...and they tried to use 9/11 about a billion times for some reason.

Funny thing to me though...is that they are slamming bush for 'capatilizing' on 9/11 service. (Kerry is capatilizing on it and he wasnt even president!) Kerry is USING his war history to gain political ground!

HOW UNBEARABLE!

Again...kerry is the typical dem...do as i say, not as i do. I say campaign without negative (after i spent 3 months bashing the president). I say pull the troops out...but wait, dont do it until im the president. I say we dont need to send the troops more money, but OHHHH its evil how bush killed our young men by not giving them the right equipment. I say i want this to be about my service, but NOT if its negative.

I say im a champion for the common man, but i sit down at a plate of ribs with the locals and look around for my knife and fork! (that was just for fun)

And if I hear kerry slam bush for the 'backdoor draft' one more freaking time im gonna puke. Hey guess what!?!?! The RESERVES get PAID to be RESERVES...not to sit at home. It sucks they have to get called up...but dont blame bush for it. And dont act like its some dishonorable thing to call up reserves.

[CShine 0]

'military service has no bearing on how well a guy can run the country'

Where on earth did you hear that?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

And if I hear kerry slam bush for the 'backdoor draft' one more freaking time im gonna puke. Hey guess what!?!?! The RESERVES get PAID to be RESERVES...not to sit at home. It sucks they have to get called up...but dont blame bush for it. And dont act like its some dishonorable thing to call up reserves.

Not what he is referring to.

[DKW 86 7,440]

'military service has no bearing on how well a guy can run the country'

Where on earth did you hear that?

President Bill Clinton, who ran against two REAL war heroes in GHWB and Bob Dole.

[channonc 466]

I thought the convention was a time for us to learn what he was all about.

What on earth gave you this impression? Conventions are merely pep rallys and nothing more. Its not supposed to be a forum to win over Independent voters, but rather to excite your base. At a football peprally you never hear strategy being discussed, only a bunch of cheers and the coach promising a win. That's pretty much what the conventions are.

[BamaGrad03 0]

I thought the convention was a time for us to learn what he was all about.

What on earth gave you this impression? Conventions are merely pep rallys and nothing more. Its not supposed to be a forum to win over Independent voters, but rather to excite your base. At a football peprally you never hear strategy being discussed, only a bunch of cheers and the coach promising a win. That's pretty much what the conventions are.

Then when are we going to learn what he is all about? He didnt tell us at the convention (that america gets to watch)...and hes not telling us at these speaking engagements...

And for you to ask me why i commented on military history/fit to lead country thing is laughable.

I heard for 8 years how clinton dodging the draft didnt matter...that was the ENTIRE campaign against Dole.

Still no one has answered my question...why does kerry not address his political service for the united states? If you are a candidate for president, i would think your 'solid' political background would lend you more fuel and credibility than that of a 4 month term in nam.

[tiger88 934]

And if I hear kerry slam bush for the 'backdoor draft' one more freaking time im gonna puke. Hey guess what!?!?! The RESERVES get PAID to be RESERVES...not to sit at home. It sucks they have to get called up...but dont blame bush for it. And dont act like its some dishonorable thing to call up reserves.

Not what he is referring to.

Same deal. Even though he is referring to calling up people who are inactive, bg's premise still holds. That was the agreement when they signed up wasn't it(I mean, when people enlist aren't they aware of the time frames in which they may be recalled after leaving active duty?)? Why was it set up that way in the first place? So it could be used exactly as Bush is using it. End of argument, right?

[channonc 466]

I thought the convention was a time for us to learn what he was all about.

What on earth gave you this impression? Conventions are merely pep rallys and nothing more. Its not supposed to be a forum to win over Independent voters, but rather to excite your base. At a football peprally you never hear strategy being discussed, only a bunch of cheers and the coach promising a win. That's pretty much what the conventions are.

Then when are we going to learn what he is all about? He didnt tell us at the convention (that america gets to watch)...and hes not telling us at these speaking engagements...

And for you to ask me why i commented on military history/fit to lead country thing is laughable.

I heard for 8 years how clinton dodging the draft didnt matter...that was the ENTIRE campaign against Dole.

Still no one has answered my question...why does kerry not address his political service for the united states? If you are a candidate for president, i would think your 'solid' political background would lend you more fuel and credibility than that of a 4 month term in nam.

Ok, first off, I never commented on the military thing, but since you seem intent on wanting an answer to that here's mine:

I really don't think that it matters. My vote is not affected by what happened over 25 years ago-- that goes for either candidate. I simply do not care what happened then, this is now, and I care about what is going on NOW.

I know you will probably now ask, then why are the Democrats making such an issue of this, blah blah... Well, both parties have been firing back about the Vietnam War. Its politics, and that's exactly what they are playing with each other's war records and avoiding real issues. Its not just the Democrats, the Republicans have gotten really good at playing politics with something that has no affect on what is going on now, ie the Swift Vet Ads.

You asked when JK is planning on telling us his plan for the country. He has, check out his website www.johnkerry.com. But I would also tell you that the debates are also a place where both candidates will have to come up with specifics on what their plan is for America. I plan on watching the debates for that info and not the conventions.

[BamaGrad03 0]

I agree with you about the military thing...and sorry i should have said that my question about calling me out on it was directed towards CShine.

As far as the swift boat thing goes...I didnt hear anything about it until i heard from kerry (for months) about his vietnam service.

remember 'reporting for duty' ?

my point is if you care about NOW and I care about NOW...why cant we hear about NOW?

[channonc 466]

my point is if you care about NOW and I care about NOW...why cant we hear about NOW?

Well, unfortunately this is where the media comes in. Its much more interesting for them to see these 2 guys discuss the past since that was such a divided time in this country. So the politicians are playing to that.

[Tigermike 3,053]

What on earth gave you this impression? Conventions are merely pep rallys and nothing more. Its not supposed to be a forum to win over Independent voters, but rather to excite your base. At a football peprally you never hear strategy being discussed, only a bunch of cheers and the coach promising a win. That's pretty much what the conventions are.

Why then have Kerry and the Dems been running like crazy from his liberal past? Why was the convention scripted so as to appeal to independent or uncommitted voters? If Kerry was really wanting to excite his base wouldn't he have talked more to the liberals? Many of them were mad that he was pandering to centrists and even conservatives.

At a football peprally you never hear strategy being discussed, only a bunch of cheers and the coach promising a win. That's pretty much what the conventions are

.

I agree with that point, but even you must admit that Kerry was not talking so much to Democrats but trying to send a message to people in the middle and even a little to the right.

[Ranger12 46]

The conventions used to be when the party made and announced their official platform. The delegates would actually debat that on the floor. So, that is what was meant when it was stated that was when we should have found out more about what Kerry stood for. Now, the delegates are pretty much powerless when it comes to that and the DNC made the decision to not discuss their platform. Could be because their candidate is weak on the issues. As I have said before, it is the liberals pushing the Vietnam thing when they said it was not an issue when Clinton ran for president. The liberals have tried to nail Bush on his Guard duty several times, but have failed each time. The republicans would love for this to get off of military service and get back on the issues, but the liberals keep the Vietnam service issue in the campaign. If Kerry really want to not keep focusing on that, then why does he keep challenging the Swift Boat veterans and their book? The liberals like to use "freedom of speech" alot, so why don't Kerry just let them do their thing and ignore them. He can't! He has nothing else to talk about! They are attacking the only thing he thinks he has to run on! C'mon debates! How many wants to bet that the first thing our of Kerry's mouth at the first debate will be about Vietnam service?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

'military service has no bearing on how well a guy can run the country'

Where on earth did you hear that?

President Bill Clinton, who ran against two REAL war heroes in GHWB and Bob Dole.

This guy didn't think GHWB was a war hero. What do you think of his credibility?

Bush's Betrayal

Chester Mierzejewski, an old war buddy of Bush, who said he was angered by the "false assertions" made by candidate Bush when describing the incident, gave a different account.

After 44 years of silence, Mierzejewski, who also was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, told the New York Post that Bush had abandoned his crew to death when there was another choice.

He said he was approximately 100 feet in front of Bush's plane as the turret gunner for Squadron Commander Douglas Melvin's plane, "so close he could see in the cockpit" of Bush's bomber. Mierzejewski's close wartime buddy was one of the two crew members in Bush's plane.

According to Mierzejewski, the squadron was in a tight-formation bombing raid against a Japanese radio installation on an island reported to be heavily fortified. He saw "a puff of smoke" come from Bush's plane which quickly disappeared and was certain only one man parachuted from the plane and that it was Bush, the pilot.

Mierzejewski said the Avenger torpedo bomber was engineered so that it could successfully crash land on water and that Bush doomed his own crew by bailing out and leaving the bomber out of control.

Other World War II veterans also expressed concern about Bush parachuting out of the aircraft. "He had a moral obligation to put that plane in the water in an emergency landing," Robert Flood, a former B-17 bombardier told the press. "He violated the primary rule for a captain of a multi-crew aircraft: The pilot never leaves the airplane with anybody in it."

Pete Brandon, a Marine Corps Avenger pilot, who also served in the South Pacific, said an Avenger pilot had two choices: Set the plane down in the water or hold it steady until the two crewmen could prepare to jump.

"In an Avenger, only the pilot wore a parachute," Brandon said. "The two crewmen wore harnesses. If the order came to bail out, they had to take chest parachutes from a shelf and strap them on - and bail out. The Avenger was very unstable. The pilot had to be at the controls the whole time or it would go right over on its back."

Steve Hart, then Vice President Press Secretary, described Mierzejewski's account as absurd. Hart said, "The Vice President has told us time and time again what happened that day. To suggest that the account is inaccurate is absurd."

What is absurd is the conflicting or missing reports of exactly what happened to Bush's two crew members. According to the Post, the intelligence report on the loss of Bush's plane in September, 1944 notes that it had become "standard doctrine" for VT 51, Bush's bomber squadron, "to make bombing runs on targets near water so as to retire over the water. This puts pilot and crew in position for water rescue in event of forced landing . . . "

The same document reports, without attribution, that "smoke and flame" engulfed Bush's engine, and that "Bush and one other person were seen to bail out. The chute of the other person who bailed out did not open."

The report was signed by Melvin and an intelligence officer, Lt. Martin E. Kilpatrick. Contrary to normal military procedure, the report was not dated and Navy archives were unable to supply a subsequently completed report.

Gunner Lawrence Mueller, who lives in Milwaukee, flew on the ChiChi Jima mission. When asked who had the best view, he replied unhesitatingly: "The turret gunner in Melvin's plane."

Mueller's recollections, jogged by a log book that he kept, support Mierzejewski's account. And it was noted that Bush's plane was the only one from the squadron that did not return. Mueller told the Post, "No parachute was sighted except Bush's when the plane went down." He also said no one mentioned a fire engulfing Bush's plane or he would have noted it in the log book.

The Finback, the sub which picked up Bush from his raft in the water, made no report of a fire on Bush's plane, but did comment on his crew: "Bush stated that he failed to see his crew's parachutes and believed they had jumped when the plane was still over ChiChi Jima, or they had gone down with the plane."

About six hours later, the Finback picked up another pilot, James W. Beckman, from the USS Enterprise, who stated that it was known that only one man had parachuted from Bush's plane. "This decided us to discontinue any further search of that area . . ."

Although the heart of Bush's story about the incident remains the same, Mierzejewski is adamant Bush's account is not the truth and blames Bush for the abandonment and deaths of both men.

"I think he could have saved those lives, if they were alive. I don't know that they were, but at least they had a chance if he had attempted a water landing," Mierzejewski said.