Christian Trump loyalists undermine Christianity's witness to the culture

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

7 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

9 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

 

I think some of you are confusing a couple of things

Understand exactly what you are saying and agree to the hypocrisy. Just saying that the hypocrisy has been there to some degree, JMO. 

 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

9 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I think some of you are confusing a couple of things. Voting for Trump is not the same thing as defending/rationalizing/ignoring his immoral actions. For instance, one could have voted for him but be put off by how he’s conducted himself as president (perhaps they thought once he was in office he would respect the position he’s and be more presidential for instance.)  Or maybe they voted for him entirely over SCOTUS judges but have serious problems with many of his other actions. Maybe they voted for him and now simply regret it.

Those sorts of things (not an exhaustive list) are not tantamount to being his cheerleader the way some are (such and Graham and Falwell), and doesn’t involve making excuses for behavior they once argued was morally disqualifying for a President. 

This is a great articulation of your view. Seriously. Thanks. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

On 5/11/2019 at 8:07 PM, Brad_ATX said:

Great.  That happened LONG after the primaries.  I'm talking about the choices evangelicals had during the primary season here and trying to understand why many, including big name evangelical leaders, still chose Trump over other Republicans.  I get the argument of backing him vs Hillary.  But evangelicals that were behind Trump from the beginning have no moral ground to stand on.

I don't think majority of evangelicals were behind Trump from the beginning. At least if we can agree that checking a box under a poll isn't a satisfactory determination.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

9 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Yeah we disagree on that point.

Indeed we do.  That's not to say that God isn't working on someone's heart before they even perceive what it is they are looking for, but I do think that how the church - how professing believers behave is a usually the initial and certainly a huge part of how someone who doesn't know Him perceives Him.  And when it is perceived that Christians preach one thing and do another, whether it's for personal gain or political power, it leaves the non-believer with the impression that their religion is all talk and that either there is no God, or if there is and these are His followers, He is not a God worth following.

 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

4 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Indeed we do.  That's not to say that God isn't working on someone's heart before they even perceive what it is they are looking for, but I do think that how the church - how professing believers behave is a usually the initial and certainly a huge part of how someone who doesn't know Him perceives Him.  And when it is perceived that Christians preach one thing and do another, whether it's for personal gain or political power, it leaves the non-believer with the impression that their religion is all talk and that either there is no God, or if there is and these are His followers, He is not a God worth following.

 

I enjoy this discussion. Feel free to PM because I am pretty sure I am getting off topic. 

Sure, the masses can influence an individual perception, but they do not "dictate one's destiny," [if you follow me]. Some people may be turned off by evangelical political-affiliation, whereas others may find favor with it - but I think it stems more from common ground or a lack thereof. Assume a nonbeliever favors abortion. Would they be turned off by a Christian who maintains that same view? What about a nonbeliever who favors Trump? Are they turned off by a Christian who also favors Trump?

Secondly, if you want to find inconsistencies amongst Christians and the church, you do not have to look hard. This is an elementary example, but have you ever looked at how many Southern Baptists are overweight? Presumably, that's a major shortcoming that quite frankly the Church turns a blind eye too. I cannot find a clearer example of hypocrisy. 

 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

37 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

I enjoy this discussion. Feel free to PM because I am pretty sure I am getting off topic. 

Sure, the masses can influence an individual perception, but they do not "dictate one's destiny," [if you follow me].

I never made the case that they "dictate one's destiny" and I'm not sure where that quote would have come from.  I simply said that this hypocrisy makes reaching those who need to be reached much harder.  It undermines the work of the Gospel in the culture.

 

 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I never made the case that they "dictate one's destiny" and I'm not sure where that quote would have come from.  I simply said that this hypocrisy makes reaching those who need to be reached much harder.  It undermines the work of the Gospel in the culture.

 

 

Presumably “the work of the Gospel in the culture” includes seeing people saved, yes? That’s the train of thought from which my statement was made.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

40 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Presumably “the work of the Gospel in the culture” includes seeing people saved, yes? That’s the train of thought from which my statement was made.

There are many factors in determining a person's eternal destiny.  What I'm saying is that such behavior makes it more difficult for the message to be heard.  It hardens people's hearts against the Gospel - making them less receptive to it.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

There are many factors in determining a person's eternal destiny.  What I'm saying is that such behavior makes it more difficult for the message to be heard.  It hardens people's hearts against the Gospel - making them less receptive to it.

Well, that of course depends on one's theology re God's sovereignty in salvation and man's state of depravity. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

2 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Well, that of course depends on one's theology re God's sovereignty in salvation and man's state of depravity. 

Well I don’t subscribe to a Calvinist soteriology. I think I’m in good company. And I think that when Jesus said things like “anyone who causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and cast into the sea,” He wasn’t engaging in a thought experiment. It’s because our actions have real consequences - for good or for ill - in the lives of others, including how believable the Gospel is to them. 

[PUB78 1,358]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

There are many factors in determining a person's eternal destiny.  What I'm saying is that such behavior makes it more difficult for the message to be heard.  It hardens people's hearts against the Gospel - making them less receptive to it.

What are these “factors”? 

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

3 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Well, that of course depends on one's theology re God's sovereignty in salvation and man's state of depravity. 

Have a great friend that we also attend church with in Port Saint Joe. Brilliant guy, a surgeon. Informed us last Friday night that he is a strict Calvinist. Asked him about predestination and his answer was that God never chooses anyone. Did not get into with him about Total depravity because I believe the opposite if I read the Calvinist beliefs correctly.  

BTW, my friend has a real problem with female ministers for whatever reason.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Well I don’t subscribe to a Calvinist soteriology. I think I’m in good company. And I think that when Jesus said things like “anyone who causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and cast into the sea,” He wasn’t engaging in a thought experiment. It’s because our actions have real consequences - for good or for ill - in the lives of others, including how believable the Gospel is to them. 

This validates the post to which the response above was given. It provides but just one example. IE, because you’re not a [Calvinist], then you think [X].

Some giants of the faith shared similar views as you, while others did not. (See Spurgeon, Towzer, etc.). All of this ties back in to the OP.

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

29 minutes ago, PUB78 said:

What are these “factors”? 

I believe you know those factors 78. More than likely you live them.

Titan is simply saying that cheer-leading an immoral bag like President Trump and  professing to be a Christian is hypocritical. Thus creating difficulty in promoting Christianity to others.  

[PUB78 1,358]

10 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

I believe you know those factors 78. More than likely you live them.

Titan is simply saying that cheer-leading an immoral bag like President Trump and  professing to be a Christian is hypocritical. Thus creating difficulty in promoting Christianity to others.  

I do try and live them, but I was interested in what factors he considered in determining a persons eternal destiny. I only know one, you accept Christ as your Savior or you don’t.

Now, as a Baptist PK, who has now been a PCA for almost 30 years, I still struggle with predestination or “God send his Son to save all “ who would believe.

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

10 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Secondly, if you want to find inconsistencies amongst Christians and the church, you do not have to look hard. This is an elementary example, but have you ever looked at how many Southern Baptists are overweight? Presumably, that's a major shortcoming that quite frankly the Church turns a blind eye too. I cannot find a clearer example of hypocrisy. 

Great stuff Nola. You have made a very good point. I do not think your example is elementary at all.  

[maxwere 82]

Mainstream evangelicalism is functionally revivalistic (pejorative).  It’s hooked on celebrities and gimmick experience.  Many methods for getting people in and few for crafting culture and political ethic (Islam does).  The fact that it totes the water for partisanism should be no surprise as this is a mere symptom of a larger lost cause... culture.

[DKW 86 7,426]

10 hours ago, PUB78 said:

I do try and live them, but I was interested in what factors he considered in determining a persons eternal destiny. I only know one, you accept Christ as your Savior or you don’t.

Now, as a Baptist PK, who has now been a PCA for almost 30 years, I still struggle with predestination or “God send his Son to save all “ who would believe.

I have always considered the common 20th Century concept of Predestination as simply an excuse to not evangelize nor tend to the needs of others. Predestination frees you from worry on all those primary responsibilities of being a real Christian. But then again, I know some evang Christians that use the "the rocks will cry out" verse to heap hate and destruction on just about everyone that is not them. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

10 hours ago, PUB78 said:

I do try and live them, but I was interested in what factors he considered in determining a persons eternal destiny. I only know one, you accept Christ as your Savior or you don’t. 

I think Salty's answer was sufficient and you're gnat straining.  But for the sake of good will, I'm talking about the factors involved in either leading to you accepting Christ, or pushing you away from doing so. 

 

[PUB78 1,358]

18 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I think Salty's answer was sufficient and you're gnat straining.  But for the sake of good will, I'm talking about the factors involved in either leading to you accepting Christ, or pushing you away from doing so. 

 

No, I was really interested in your answer. I am sorry that most of us on this board are not intellectual  giants as you.

[maxwere 82]

So, would Calvin have signed such a petition?  Cramner?  Knox?

Evangelicalism has far removed itself from political dissention, but that is indeed its protestant heritage.  Standing ones ground against temporal tyranny.  Along those lines, I can think of very few presidents who would have warranted an endorsement.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

14 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

I have always considered the common 20th Century concept of Predestination as simply an excuse to not evangelize nor tend to the needs of others. Predestination frees you from worry on all those primary responsibilities of being a real Christian. But then again, I know some evang Christians that use the "the rocks will cry out" verse to heap hate and destruction on just about everyone that is not them. 

I think your consideration is inconsistent with historical and modern traits of Calvinist-evangelism. Regardless of whether one adopts the strict theological viewpoints, it can hardly be argued that Calvinism, in a systematic sense, minimizes evangelism either domestically or abroad. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. For the Calvinist, predestination frees one to evangelize, knowing that a higher authority is ultimately in control.

I don’t think the most ardent Arminian would disagree with my statement.

[DKW 86 7,426]

2 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

I think your consideration is inconsistent with historical and modern traits of Calvinist-evangelism. Regardless of whether one adopts the strict theological viewpoints, it can hardly be argued that Calvinism, in a systematic sense, minimizes evangelism either domestically or abroad. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. For the Calvinist, predestination frees one to evangelize, knowing that a higher authority is ultimately in control.

I don’t think the most ardent Arminian would disagree with my statement.

And I specified that my view was on 20-21st Century Predestination. That is as far from Calvinism as can be.
You are defining classical Calvinism and the "Theory of Calvinism."
I am addressing Today's Predestination and Predestination as currently practiced. 

They literally have nothing in common. Classical Calvinism was Outward Focused and Served God.
Today, Predestination.is an excuse to not really engage with the world. It is used to justify lazy believers.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

 

I'm sure this sort of thing has no effect on a non-believer's receptiveness to the Gospel.  Nothing to see here.

[johnnyAU 3,634]

I'll be honest. I had no clue Bakker was still alive.