Rushing to judgment

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Rushing to judgment

Shame on John Murtha for presuming Marines' guilt in Haditha

<snip>

Jesse Macbeth, a self-styled "special forces ranger," regaled moonbat audiences with tales of the atrocities he committed in Iraq:

"Fallujah is where we slaughtered people in mosques," he said. "We would dig holes and leave mass graves of children, women and old men."

Unfortunately for Mr. Macbeth, he made a video which was seen by actual veterans. In it, he is wearing his beret improperly ("like a pastry chef," said an Army spokesman). He's wearing a Ranger beret, but it has a Special Forces flash. The sleeves on his battle BDU jacket are rolled up the way the Marines do it; not the Army.

In short, Mr. Macbeth was a fraud so obvious even the moonbats should have seen through him, but they didn't because they wanted so badly to believe the terrible things he was saying about U.S. forces in Iraq.

In every war America has ever fought, a few soldiers have committed war crimes. In no war has their behavior been representative of our soldiers as a whole, or been sanctioned by their superiors. But the moonbats think smearing our servicemen and women discredits the war effort.

To his everlasting shame, Rep. John Murtha, a Democrat from Johnstown and a retired Marine reserve colonel, is playing to the same crowd. He's accused Marines of having committed "cold-blooded murder," and their superiors of covering it up.

"It goes right up the chain of command right up to Gen. [Peter] Pace [chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff]," Mr. Murtha said on ABC's "This Week" program last Sunday.

Something horrible did happen in Haditha on the morning of Nov. 19, 2005. A powerful roadside bomb destroyed a Marine Humvee, killing Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, and injuring two other Marines.

The incident report filed by Lance Cpl. Terrazas' unit said the IED was accompanied by small arms fire, which the Marines returned, killing eight insurgents and wounding another. The report said 15 Iraqi civilians were killed in the blast.

That wasn't true. Autopsies indicated the 15 civilians -- four of them women and four of them children -- had all suffered gunshot wounds.

The civilians were killed inside two houses near the blast site. An Iraqi journalism student videotaped the bodies in the morgue and the scene in the two houses. It was shown to reporters for Time in Baghdad.

Time gave a copy of the tape to a military spokesman in January, which triggered an investigation which is now nearing completion.

Residents of Haditha told Time they were pleased with the thoroughness of the investigation.

"They asked detailed questions, examined each bullet hole and burn mark," a relative of the victims told Time's Aparism Ghosh. "It was a very professional investigation."

Criminal charges are likely to be filed against the 13 Marines in the squad involved in the shootings.

But in our system, it is customary to hear the evidence before rendering a verdict. The Marines have yet to be charged, let alone convicted.

"Cold-blooded" implies emotionless premeditation. From what little we know of the case, it seems the Marines were guilty of a hot-blooded over-reaction. Perhaps some Marines committed murder. But perhaps it was manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide.

And maybe they're innocent. Haditha's a hotbed of insurgent activity. Perhaps the Marines were receiving fire from the houses, as they claimed.

If the Marines under suspicion are found guilty of murder or manslaughter, they should be punished severely. But they deserve the presumption of innocence until then.

Rep. Murtha's accusation of a cover-up clearly is false...

<snip>

News media that haven't reported much on the heroism of U.S. troops in Iraq have been playing this incident up, as they did the appalling conduct of a few guards at Abu Ghraib prison. The incident routinely is described as a "massacre," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace.

Smearing our troops gives our enemies a propaganda victory. But whatever happened at Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005, has nothing to do with the wisdom or justness (or the lack of it) of the war in Iraq.

Link

[TexasTiger 12,956]

Rushing to judgment

Shame on John Murtha for presuming Marines' guilt in Haditha

<snip>

Jesse Macbeth, a self-styled "special forces ranger," regaled moonbat audiences with tales of the atrocities he committed in Iraq:

"Fallujah is where we slaughtered people in mosques," he said. "We would dig holes and leave mass graves of children, women and old men."

Unfortunately for Mr. Macbeth, he made a video which was seen by actual veterans. In it, he is wearing his beret improperly ("like a pastry chef," said an Army spokesman). He's wearing a Ranger beret, but it has a Special Forces flash. The sleeves on his battle BDU jacket are rolled up the way the Marines do it; not the Army.

In short, Mr. Macbeth was a fraud so obvious even the moonbats should have seen through him, but they didn't because they wanted so badly to believe the terrible things he was saying about U.S. forces in Iraq.

In every war America has ever fought, a few soldiers have committed war crimes. In no war has their behavior been representative of our soldiers as a whole, or been sanctioned by their superiors. But the moonbats think smearing our servicemen and women discredits the war effort.

To his everlasting shame, Rep. John Murtha, a Democrat from Johnstown and a retired Marine reserve colonel, is playing to the same crowd. He's accused Marines of having committed "cold-blooded murder," and their superiors of covering it up.

"It goes right up the chain of command right up to Gen. [Peter] Pace [chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff]," Mr. Murtha said on ABC's "This Week" program last Sunday.

Something horrible did happen in Haditha on the morning of Nov. 19, 2005. A powerful roadside bomb destroyed a Marine Humvee, killing Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, and injuring two other Marines.

The incident report filed by Lance Cpl. Terrazas' unit said the IED was accompanied by small arms fire, which the Marines returned, killing eight insurgents and wounding another. The report said 15 Iraqi civilians were killed in the blast.

That wasn't true. Autopsies indicated the 15 civilians -- four of them women and four of them children -- had all suffered gunshot wounds.

The civilians were killed inside two houses near the blast site. An Iraqi journalism student videotaped the bodies in the morgue and the scene in the two houses. It was shown to reporters for Time in Baghdad.

Time gave a copy of the tape to a military spokesman in January, which triggered an investigation which is now nearing completion.

Residents of Haditha told Time they were pleased with the thoroughness of the investigation.

"They asked detailed questions, examined each bullet hole and burn mark," a relative of the victims told Time's Aparism Ghosh. "It was a very professional investigation."

Criminal charges are likely to be filed against the 13 Marines in the squad involved in the shootings.

But in our system, it is customary to hear the evidence before rendering a verdict. The Marines have yet to be charged, let alone convicted.

"Cold-blooded" implies emotionless premeditation. From what little we know of the case, it seems the Marines were guilty of a hot-blooded over-reaction. Perhaps some Marines committed murder. But perhaps it was manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide.

And maybe they're innocent. Haditha's a hotbed of insurgent activity. Perhaps the Marines were receiving fire from the houses, as they claimed.

If the Marines under suspicion are found guilty of murder or manslaughter, they should be punished severely. But they deserve the presumption of innocence until then.

Rep. Murtha's accusation of a cover-up clearly is false...

<snip>

News media that haven't reported much on the heroism of U.S. troops in Iraq have been playing this incident up, as they did the appalling conduct of a few guards at Abu Ghraib prison. The incident routinely is described as a "massacre," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace.

Smearing our troops gives our enemies a propaganda victory. But whatever happened at Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005, has nothing to do with the wisdom or justness (or the lack of it) of the war in Iraq.

Link

238546[/snapback]

I suspect Murtha has seen some pretty strong evidence, but he should have shown more restraint in his public comments.

[AURaptor 1,125]

I suspect Murtha has seen some pretty strong evidence, but he should have shown more restraint in his public comments.

You give Murtha a free pass on his 'alleged' evidence, yet when it comes to Bush and WMD, were you as equally quick to accept what was told by virtuallly every intel organization in the world ? Why hasn't ALL of Congress seen the same evidence as Murtha ?

[CCTAU 3,327]

I suspect Murtha has seen some pretty strong evidence, but he should have shown more restraint in his public comments.

You give Murtha a free pass on his 'alleged' evidence, yet when it comes to Bush and WMD, were you as equally quick to accept what was told by virtuallly every intel organization in the world ? Why hasn't ALL of Congress seen the same evidence as Murtha ?

238598[/snapback]

If it hurts Bush, free pass. If its positive at all for Bush, no free pass. Immediate execution.

I tell ya. If the sorry pieces of $hit set off an IED and then generate small arms fire at my kid, I say kill everything in sight. Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. When any of you have that bullet pass by your head and actually refrain form $hitting your pants, then come voice your opinion on what should or should not have happened.

It is WAR, people DIE. Preferably THEM.

Murtha is a piece of crap who has forgotten what it is to serve your country instead if RULE it.

[TexasTiger 12,956]

I suspect Murtha has seen some pretty strong evidence, but he should have shown more restraint in his public comments.

You give Murtha a free pass on his 'alleged' evidence, yet when it comes to Bush and WMD, were you as equally quick to accept what was told by virtuallly every intel organization in the world ? Why hasn't ALL of Congress seen the same evidence as Murtha ?

238598[/snapback]

If it hurts Bush, free pass. If its positive at all for Bush, no free pass. Immediate execution.

I tell ya. If the sorry pieces of $hit set off an IED and then generate small arms fire at my kid, I say kill everything in sight. Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. When any of you have that bullet pass by your head and actually refrain form $hitting your pants, then come voice your opinion on what should or should not have happened.

It is WAR, people DIE. Preferably THEM.

Murtha is a piece of crap who has forgotten what it is to serve your country instead if RULE it.

238735[/snapback]

You guys are so predictably whiney about your fantasy lover Bush and so eager to find disagreement. Nobody defends anyone that blindly without at least a very strong crush.

I suspect Murtha and many others have seen some strong evidence. On the face of it, it is pretty clear that the "official" story made no sense. If the "official" story were true, there would be no reason for payments to the survivors with our tax dollars. Nonetheless, I agreed that Murtha should be more restrained in his public comments. Your heads are so far up Bush's butt you seemed to miss that.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

If it hurts Bush, free pass. If its positive at all for Bush, no free pass. Immediate execution.

I tell ya. If the sorry pieces of $hit set off an IED and then generate small arms fire at my kid, I say kill everything in sight. Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. When any of you have that bullet pass by your head and actually refrain form $hitting your pants, then come voice your opinion on what should or should not have happened.

It is WAR, people DIE. Preferably THEM.

Murtha is a piece of crap who has forgotten what it is to serve your country instead if RULE it.

238735[/snapback]

Amen! Here's an excerpt from an interview with Capt. Andrew Del Gaudio of the 8th Marine regiment in USA Today.

Del Gaudio said he made a tough call after a roadside bomb killed four of his men in April. While securing the scene, he was shot at by a machine gun in a follow-up attack. When he aimed his weapon to return fire, he saw that the gunmen had a line of children standing in front of them and two men filming with video cameras. He held fire until the children moved out of the way but was shot in his hand, which was only inches from his face.

"Restraint almost cost me my life," he said.

Link

[Tigermike 3,039]

Del Gaudio said he made a tough call after a roadside bomb killed four of his men in April. While securing the scene, he was shot at by a machine gun in a follow-up attack. When he aimed his weapon to return fire, he saw that the gunmen had a line of children standing in front of them and two men filming with video cameras. He held fire until the children moved out of the way but was shot in his hand, which was only inches from his face.

"Restraint almost cost me my life," he said.

That's not so unusual with those guys is it?

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Del Gaudio said he made a tough call after a roadside bomb killed four of his men in April. While securing the scene, he was shot at by a machine gun in a follow-up attack. When he aimed his weapon to return fire, he saw that the gunmen had a line of children standing in front of them and two men filming with video cameras. He held fire until the children moved out of the way but was shot in his hand, which was only inches from his face.

"Restraint almost cost me my life," he said.

That's not so unusual with those guys is it?

238754[/snapback]

Not unusual at all. They know that the American soldier is being tethered by the media and our leftist "supporters". They know the deck is overwhelmingly stacked against the GI, and they know better than anyone how to manipulate the these two factions.

[TexasTiger 12,956]

I feel great sympathy for these Marines, even if the investigation substantiates the allegations. They have been placed in one helluva of a bad situation by their government. While I certainly would never condone such actions, if proven, no one truly knows how they would react in the same situation, under that level of stress.

[SouthLink02 8]

I feel great sympathy for these Marines, even if the investigation substantiates the allegations.  They have been placed in one helluva of a bad situation by their government.  While I certainly would never condone such actions, if proven, no one truly knows how they would react in the same situation, under that level of stress.

238997[/snapback]

[Tigermike 3,039]

The real Iraq

Cal Thomas

The Pentagon has concluded its investigation into the March 15 deaths of 13 Iraqis in the town of Ishaqi. It found that American soldiers acted within the rules of combat when they fired on a house after first being fired upon by a suspected al-Qaida operative. The investigation of a Nov. 19 incident in Haditha in which 24 Iraqi civilians were killed continues, though some people have already rushed to judgment and convicted a group of U.S. Marines.

Some news reports about the Ishaqi incident noted that U.S. military commanders believed the Iraqi police report was part of an attempt to discredit American troops and foment resentment among locals.

That view and the related strategy to undermine support for the war at home receives strong support from Amir Taheri, former executive editor of Kayhan, Iran's largest newspaper. Writing in the June issue of Commentary magazine, Taheri contends Americans are being presented with a false picture of conditions in Iraq. Noting the difficulty of covering Iraq adequately, Taheri writes, "…many of the newsmen, pundits, and commentators on whom American viewers and readers rely to describe the situation have been contaminated by the increasing bitterness of American politics. Clearly there are those in the media and the think tanks who wish the Iraq enterprise to end in tragedy, as a just comeuppance for George W. Bush."

For the anti-war left, hatred of the president is the filter through which all information flows. It has created a "conventional wisdom" that nothing good is happening in Iraq and even if it is, inevitable defeat awaits the United States when it must ultimately withdraw, leaving chaos behind.

"Current reality," writes Taheri, "is very different … and so are the prospects for Iraq's future."

One can understand nothing of the region without knowing its history. Taheri recalls that for some time history has been pointing "in an unequivocally positive direction." His evidence begins with refugees. He notes that when things were very bad in Iraq, people formed long lines at the Turkish and Iranian borders, hoping to escape. Since the toppling of Saddam Hussein, he writes, they are coming home: "By the end of 2005, in the most conservative estimate, the number of returnees topped the 1.2 million mark." If the entire country is consumed by chaos and disorder, why would so many Iraqis return to their homeland?

Another encouraging sign cited by Taheri is the increased flow of religious pilgrims to Shiite shrines. When Saddam began massacring Shiites after a 1991 revolt against him, religious pilgrimages all but ceased. In 2005, the holy sites received an estimated 12 million pilgrims, making them the most visited places in the entire Muslim world, ahead of both Mecca and Medina.

Other positive trends seen by Taheri include the increase in value of the Iraqi dinar, especially compared to the region's other currencies; a revival in Iraqi agricultural activity, which had experienced unprecedented decline under Saddam; and the return of "freedom of expression" to Iraq, especially in the media.

Taheri also has a strong rebuttal to those who claim the United States is trying to "impose democracy" on Iraq. He writes of Iraq's history with democracy prior to the 1958 pro-Soviet military coup d'etat that established a leftist dictatorship. Iraq came into being through a popular referendum in 1921. It established a constitutional monarchy modeled on Great Britain, with a bicameral parliament, several political parties and periodic elections.

Taheri says, "…contrary to received opinion, Operation Iraqi Freedom was not an attempt to impose democracy by force. Rather, it was an effort to use force to remove impediments to democratization, primarily by deposing a tyrant who had utterly suppressed a well-established aspect of the country's identity."

The key to victory for Iraq and the United States is staying the course until the elected Iraqi leadership can defend itself and the country. The insurgents and terrorists are betting we won't. Much of the media and some politicians have already conceded defeat; giving sustenance to killers who believe that if they stay the course they will win. They will win if we don't. They won't win if we do.

The Taheri essay is a must-read for anyone not fixated on giving President Bush "his comeuppance."

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/thomas1.asp

[AURaptor 1,125]

Nonetheless, I agreed that Murtha should be more restrained in his public comments. Your heads are so far up Bush's butt you seemed to miss that.

Yeah, you did say that, at the end, almost as a throw away comment. Sorry TT, but your abysmal track record on such issues keeps you in 'dubious' club when it comes to defending the troops and criticizing pompous, hypocritical and self absorbed Democrats.

I don't see how any of this has to do w/ Bush, yet you seem fixated w/ Bush and or his a$$. Guess that says much more about you than anything.

[TexasTiger 12,956]

Nonetheless, I agreed that Murtha should be more restrained in his public comments. Your heads are so far up Bush's butt you seemed to miss that.

Yeah, you did say that, at the end, almost as a throw away comment. Sorry TT, but your abysmal track record on such issues keeps you in 'dubious' club when it comes to defending the troops and criticizing pompous, hypocritical and self absorbed Democrats.

I don't see how any of this has to do w/ Bush, yet you seem fixated w/ Bush and or his a$$. Guess that says much more about you than anything.

239179[/snapback]

Go to Sylvan, learn to read, read this thread and realize that...doh, you introduced Bush into the conversation.

[AURaptor 1,125]

Go to Sylvan, learn to read, read this thread and realize that...doh, you introduced Bush into the conversation.

Leave it to you to twist and distort the issue. The POINT was that Murtha gets praised for jumping the gun while you claim Bush did the same thing. You then go off on this ad hominem attack on Bush and me that isn't even relevent to the story.

[TexasTiger 12,956]

Go to Sylvan, learn to read, read this thread and realize that...doh, you introduced Bush into the conversation.

Leave it to you to twist and distort the issue. The POINT was that Murtha gets praised for jumping the gun while you claim Bush did the same thing. You then go off on this ad hominem attack on Bush and me that isn't even relevent to the story.

239232[/snapback]

You make everything about being an attack on Bush. You did that here when it wasn't. You're obviously obsessed with him.

Read it again. I didn't praise Murtha for jumping the gun. I said he should have shown restraint.