You can support the troops, but not the President

[TexasTiger 12,974]

At least Tom Delay thinks, uh, thought so.

Here's what Republicans said about Clinton and Kosovo

 Why did they second-guess our commitment to freedom from genocide and demand that we cut and run?

 "President Clinton is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be

away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."

-Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)

  

"No goal, no objective, not until we have those things and a compelling case is made, then I say, back out of it, because innocent people are going to die for nothing. That's why I'm against it."

-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/5/99

  

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery.  Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

  

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."

  

-Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of presidential candidate George W. Bush

Why did they demoralize our brave men and women in uniform?

  

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning...I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."

-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

  

"You think Vietnam was bad? Vietnam is nothing next to Kosovo."

-Tony Snow, Fox News 3/24/99

  

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years"

-Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

  

"I'm on the Senate Intelligence Committee, so you can trust me and believe me when I say we're running out of cruise missles. I can't tell you exactly how many we have left, for security reasons, but we're almost out of cruise missles."

  

-Senator Inhofe (R-OK )

  

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarifiedrules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our overextended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"

  

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

  

"I don't know that Milosevic will ever raise a white flag"

  

-Senator Don Nickles (R-OK)

  

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"

  

-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

Why didn't they support our president in a time of war?

  

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."

  

-Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

  

"This is President Clinton's war, and when he falls flat on his face, that's his problem."

  

-Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN)

  

"The two powers that have ICBMs that can reach the United States are Russia and China. Here we go in. We're taking on not just Milosevic. We can't just say, 'that little guy, we can whip him.' We have these two other powers that have missiles that can reach us, and we have zero defense thanks to this president."

  

-Senator James Inhofe (R-OK)

  

"You can support the troops but not the president"

  

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

  

"My job as majority leader is be supportive of our troops, try to have input as decisions are made and to look at those decisions after they're made ... not to march in lock step with everything the president decides to do."

  

-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

  

For us to call this a victory and to commend the President of the United States as the Commander in Chief showing great leadership in Operation Allied Force is a farce"

   -Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

Why did they blame America first?

  

Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly."

  

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

[Ranger12 46]

As a vet of that "operation" I feel like I can speak as an expert. First, any member of Congress that speaks things that the enemy can use as propaganda to further their cause is unexcusable, regardless of party. Seconde, questioning foreign policy is not dangerous compared to making statements like "we made a mistake", "we can't can't win", or "the President lied". Those are statements the enemy uses against our guys, so when they are made, you are not supporting the troops. One can question a war and the things being done in a way that the enemy can't use it.

One of the biggest concerns about Kosovo was the clear reason why we went over there. It was not a national security threat to us. However, we were trying to stop the genocide that was going on and I think it was the right thing to do, so I agree with Clinton with sending us. But, once we got over there, our troops were taking orders from NATO officers from other countries and that presented a problem quite a few times. Also our rules of engagment were all FUBAR. There were times that we were not allowed to fire when fired upon. There were alot of times we were told to not fire upon enemy soldiers when we saw them attacking and killing enemy civilians! Wasn't that what we were sent over there to do stop from happening. So we started thinking what the hell were we doing over there. If we can't do out job, we don't want to keep watching this crap happen, so just send us back to the states. The same thing happened in Somolia. We were sent to stop the warlords and help feed the people. Yet, when food was delivered, we were not allowed to properly defend those deliveries when the warlords would grab it up and shoot at innocent civilians trying to get to it. Why were we over there then? It was our inactions at the Mog that caused they indigenous people to turn on us.

At least in Iraq we know why we are there and we are allowed to shoot the hell out of anybody that fires on us or civilians. Yes, there is room to question our tactics and I have also questioned some of our tactics. But, that happens in every wary. But at least the President we have now is not handcuffing our troops from doing the job they were sent to do.

[TexasTiger 12,974]

As a vet of that "operation" I feel like I can speak as an expert. First, any member of Congress that speaks things that the enemy can use as propaganda to further their cause is unexcusable, regardless of party. Seconde, questioning foreign policy is not dangerous compared to making statements like "we made a mistake", "we can't can't win", or "the President lied". Those are statements the enemy uses against our guys, so when they are made, you are not supporting the troops. One can question a war and the things being done in a way that the enemy can't use it.

One of the biggest concerns about Kosovo was the clear reason why we went over there. It was not a national security threat to us. However, we were trying to stop the genocide that was going on and I think it was the right thing to do, so I agree with Clinton with sending us. But, once we got over there, our troops were taking orders from NATO officers from other countries and that presented a problem quite a few times. Also our rules of engagment were all FUBAR. There were times that we were not allowed to fire when fired upon. There were alot of times we were told to not fire upon enemy soldiers when we saw them attacking and killing enemy civilians! Wasn't that what we were sent over there to do stop from happening. So we started thinking what the hell were we doing over there. If we can't do out job, we don't want to keep watching this crap happen, so just send us back to the states. The same thing happened in Somolia. We were sent to stop the warlords and help feed the people. Yet, when food was delivered, we were not allowed to properly defend those deliveries when the warlords would grab it up and shoot at innocent civilians trying to get to it. Why were we over there then? It was our inactions at the Mog that caused they indigenous people to turn on us.

At least in Iraq we know why we are there and we are allowed to shoot the hell out of anybody that fires on us or civilians. Yes, there is room to question our tactics and I have also questioned some of our tactics. But, that happens in every wary. But at least the President we have now is not handcuffing our troops from doing the job they were sent to do.

240647[/snapback]

There are pros and cons of a truly allied mission.

The 7,000 U.S. and 43,000 international troops destined to take part in NATO Operation Joint Guardian have "a big, big job" ahead of them in Kosovo, Clinton told soldiers and Marines in Skopje. The security mission is not free of danger or difficulty, he stressed. "There will be some days you wish you were somewhere else."

...

Allied forces flew more than 30,000 sorties, about 9,000 from Aviano, with no combat deaths, and only two planes downed, he noted. "In each case, the pilot [was] recovered; the first in six hours, the second in an hour and a half. That is a truly astonishing record," he said.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun1999/n0...99_9906236.html

One of the pros is sharing the load-- militarily and financially. There are pros and cons to different tactics. Largely because of the lack of bipartisan support from the outset, this was a mission for which politicians and the public would have had little tolerance for many American fatalities. Many Republicans were absolutely relentless in their criticism from the very start, as evidenced by these quotes.

Anyone can find fault with the approach to the mission and quibble over the details of the outcome, but it has been largely successful, despite the almost total lack of support by Republicans.

[AURaptor 1,125]

TT, too little, too late. The Dems who talked big and bold about doing what ever it takes vs Saddam while Clinton was President did a complete 180 when everything else in the world changed, after 9-11-01, but Bush was in the White House instead.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Both sides are disappointing to me. I propose a change.

[AUJarhead 70]

Both sides are disappointing to me. I propose a change.

240663[/snapback]

Bottomfeeder/Liger in 2008!

[TexasTiger 12,974]

Both sides are disappointing to me. I propose a change.

240663[/snapback]

Bottomfeeder/Liger in 2008!

240669[/snapback]

AAHHHHHGG! Head for the hills!

[AUJarhead 70]

Both sides are disappointing to me. I propose a change.

240663[/snapback]

Bottomfeeder/Liger in 2008!

240669[/snapback]

AAHHHHHGG! Head for the hills!

240671[/snapback]

I was thinking you for either Speaker of the House or Sec of State!

[Captain Liger 0]

Anyone can find fault with the approach to the mission and quibble over the details of the outcome, but it has been largely successful, despite the almost total lack of support by Republicans.

240652[/snapback]

Not trying to sling mud, for a change, but I believe the same can be said about Democrats today concerning Iraq. Because Bosnia/Kosovo was a Clinton era operation and knowing the media's love affair with him, these operations garnered favorable press. Although Iraq is a much more violent theater of operations than the Baltics, it is still largely a success because of the rebuilding we are doing there in regards to Iraq's infrastructure (shcools, hospitals, sewage plants, electic substations, etc). But because Democrats and the media detest President Bush, regardless of how successful the Iraq campaign actually is, Iraq will never receive the same favorable press that Bosnia/Kosovo received under Clinton. And that's a fact.

But BF is right, both sides of the aisle are largely disappointing so why bother pointing fingers?

By the way, I'll NEVER be anyone's vice presidential running mate. BF can be MY vice president. I haven't spent the last 10 years honing my leadership skills to stand on deck waiting to go to bat. And BF, there's no way in hell we're going hunting together.

TexasTiger, you can be my press secretary. You could argue with a brick wall so I figure you can give the media hell on my behalf (that's a compliment by the way so take it while you can). I'll let AURaptor and TigerMike duke it out to see who'll be my SecDef. TIS, you're my SecNav obviously (I want all classes of battleships brought out of mothballs immediately to include the Alabama) and Ranger12, my Sec of the Army (add five more Ranger Batts and 5 maneuver divisons ASAP).

This is fun. I'll take recommendations on who should fill the other positions in my cabinet.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

TexasTiger, you can be my press secretary. You could argue with a brick wall so I figure you can give the media hell on my behalf (that's a compliment by the way so take it while you can). I'll let AURaptor and TigerMike duke it out to see who'll be my SecDef. TIS, you're my SecNav obviously (I want all classes of battleships brought out of mothballs immediately to include the Alabama) and Ranger12, my Sec of the Army (add five more Ranger Batts and 5 maneuver divisons ASAP).

This is fun. I'll take recommendations on who should fill the other positions in my cabinet.

240685[/snapback]

Position accepted! Man 'em up and get them underway!

As your SECNAV, I would advise that you need to consider someone as press secretary that can put these hippie journalists in the White House press corps their place during the briefings. I recommend you consider Jenny or TigMaj to fill that post. Put TT in charge of FEMA.

CCTAU should run DHS.

[Ranger12 46]

I'm in! I'll add those units you requested and then some. I will make sure all soldiers get more advanced urban warfare training in basic. I'll eliminate that useless training time in which we spar with those giant Q-tips, since you really learn nothing about hand to hand combat doing that. Also make airborne training mandatory after basic is completed. That way when all soldiers will be ahead of the game by already having one of the qualifications to get in Ranger school.

More improvements to come.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Anyone can find fault with the approach to the mission and quibble over the details of the outcome, but it has been largely successful, despite the almost total lack of support by Republicans.

240652[/snapback]

Not trying to sling mud, for a change, but I believe the same can be said about Democrats today concerning Iraq. Because Bosnia/Kosovo was a Clinton era operation and knowing the media's love affair with him, these operations garnered favorable press. Although Iraq is a much more violent theater of operations than the Baltics, it is still largely a success because of the rebuilding we are doing there in regards to Iraq's infrastructure (shcools, hospitals, sewage plants, electic substations, etc). But because Democrats and the media detest President Bush, regardless of how successful the Iraq campaign actually is, Iraq will never receive the same favorable press that Bosnia/Kosovo received under Clinton. And that's a fact.

But BF is right, both sides of the aisle are largely disappointing so why bother pointing fingers?

By the way, I'll NEVER be anyone's vice presidential running mate. BF can be MY vice president. I haven't spent the last 10 years honing my leadership skills to stand on deck waiting to go to bat. And BF, there's no way in hell we're going hunting together.

TexasTiger, you can be my press secretary. You could argue with a brick wall so I figure you can give the media hell on my behalf (that's a compliment by the way so take it while you can). I'll let AURaptor and TigerMike duke it out to see who'll be my SecDef. TIS, you're my SecNav obviously (I want all classes of battleships brought out of mothballs immediately to include the Alabama) and Ranger12, my Sec of the Army (add five more Ranger Batts and 5 maneuver divisons ASAP).

This is fun. I'll take recommendations on who should fill the other positions in my cabinet.

240685[/snapback]

I would think about it if I were you. Captain. For real.

I got a good feeling about it now. I like the way Bush presented himself yesterday. He did very well, indeed.

[CCTAU 3,336]

TexasTiger, you can be my press secretary. You could argue with a brick wall so I figure you can give the media hell on my behalf (that's a compliment by the way so take it while you can). I'll let AURaptor and TigerMike duke it out to see who'll be my SecDef. TIS, you're my SecNav obviously (I want all classes of battleships brought out of mothballs immediately to include the Alabama) and Ranger12, my Sec of the Army (add five more Ranger Batts and 5 maneuver divisons ASAP).

This is fun. I'll take recommendations on who should fill the other positions in my cabinet.

240685[/snapback]

Position accepted! Man 'em up and get them underway!

As your SECNAV, I would advise that you need to consider someone as press secretary that can put these hippie journalists in the White House press corps their place during the briefings. I recommend you consider Jenny or TigMaj to fill that post. Put TT in charge of FEMA.

CCTAU should run DHS.

240712[/snapback]

Thanks TIS. Beginning immediately, construction on the GREAT WALL of TEXAS will began. After that, the GREAT WALL of ARIZONA, and etc..

Any illegal apprehended will be given a choice. A) Shipped off to our compassionate brethren in the north. Flown to Southern Mexico and dropped off.

Anybody wearing a rag on their head can be stopped and questioned at any time. Mostly when in an airport, train station, balloon ride at a cornival, or the log flume at six flags. Don't want to be treated like a terrorist, don't dress to fit our vision of one.

If you are an illegal citizen and you give birth on our soil, your offspring are illegal also. The invasion will stop with this administration.

Make frequent calls to the middle east, we will be listening. Get shipments from the middle east, we will be inspecting. Marry someone from the middle east and they take your children back home with them, thats your problem.

FEMA will now be marketed as an emergency organization true to its name. Need water, food, or shelter, FEMA will bring it to you at the earliest opportunity. Any problems getting it to you will be solved by your local elected officials.

Whew, I have to take a break. This will take at least 6 months to get started. I'll have new plans out by then.

Thank you for allowing me to rule, er... I mean SERVE.

[Captain Liger 0]

Awesome, this coming together nicely. Correct me if I'm wrong but here's what we've got so far:

PoUSA: Yours truly. When in charge, take charge. I plan to do just that. I will take responsibility for everything this administration accomplishes or fails to accomplish. For the first four years we will have our work cut out for us. There's more stuff that needs fixing than can be listed here but I will give you, my cabinet, my top five priorities. Consider it a roadmap for success if you will.

1. Homeland Security. We have no greater responsibility than to protect the American people from all enemies, foreign and domestic. I like sleeping peacefully at night and I'm sure you do too and therefore the physical well being of this country comes first. Illegal immigration falls into this category.

2. The National Budget. It's out of control and I want it fixed...now. Not 4 years from now, not 8 years from now. N-O-W. Now. And if you, the cabinet, can swing it, I'd prefer it yesterday. I want the proposed budget on my desk NLT six months prior to it going up for approval in Congress. I will personally break out Big Red and axe what is frivilous. The buck stops here.

3. Foreign Policy. Although a policy of pseudo-isolationism sounds nice there is still a need for American presence throughout the world. I like the fact that our troop levels in Europe and Korea are being scaled back. Let's stick to that for the time being and this scaling back is not to be confused with military downsizing. Patch things up with world members that used to like us openly but now have reservations. Exceptions include France and Germany. F 'em.

4. Oil Dependency. Americans are suffering at the pump and if there's something I hate to see, it's Americans suffering needlessly. I want to hurt the Middle East where it hurts the most and by getting off oil they will eventually revert back to a region of camel herding bedouins. Commission a panel to immediately study the feasibility of swapping to alcohol burning vehicles by the end of this administration's first term. They have six months to give me a preliminary report, final in 12. No excuses. Alcohol burns clean, smells good when doing so, and is easy to produce right here in America.

5. The War on Terror. We have the enemy on the ground. We are currently kicking him while he is down and we are not above kicking him in the balls while he is down. We will continue to kick him in the balls, the head, the stomach, the ass, wherever the most damage can be done by kicking until he capitulates. Enough said.

VPoUSA: BottomFeeder. An obvious choice. This guy is so hard to read that the press will be so busy concentrating their attention on him, trying to figure him out, that I will actually be able to do my job and serve the American people unhindered.

Secretary of State: TexasTiger. Another obvious choice. Your arguing skills are top notch. You never quit, even in the face of defeat. I expect you to interface with other world leaders and argue our position on everything. I trust you to argue so much, in fact, that our world neighbors will give us what we want each and every time just to keep from arguing with you. You are a success story waiting to happen.

Secretary of Defense: Tigermike. As far as I know you have no military experience and that is exactly what I want in a SECDEF. It's what the founding fathers wanted in our heads of the military, straight up civilians. My first job for you is to turn up the heat in Iraq by about 100 degrees. Our boys are extremely motivated but they're getting tired. Finish the job. Get with my secretary and get on my calendar. We need to chat.

- Secretary of the Army: Ranger12. A former specops guy. Make me proud. You know what I want.

- Secretary of the Navy: Tiger in Spain. Same for you. I expect a version of the Great White Fleet's world cruise within the year. The SECDEF will give you more guidance.

- Secretary of the Air Force: Any volunteers?

Secretary of Homeland Security: CCTAU. Get with the SECDEF. I want a wall, sooner than later. I want a plan of action in 30 days. Make it happen.

- FEMA director: AURaptor. I need somebody that's friggin' responsible working here. You're my man.

Press Secretary: Jenny-AU92. What else do I need to say? Give 'em hell.

Presidential whipping boy/scapegoat: Tigrinum Major. I specifically asked for my bath water to be set at a comfortable 108 degrees. It's currently set at 109. Is your incompetency on purpose? Do I need to find a replacement? I'll be watching you.

I currently need recommendations for the following posts and reasons why:

Secretary of Agriculture

Secretary of the Interior

Secretary of Commerce

U.S. Attorney General

Secretary of Labor

Secretary of Education

Secretary of Energy

Secretary of Transportation

Secretary of Health & Human Services

Secretary of the Treasury

Secretary of Veterans Affairs

Secretary of Housing & Urban Development

I'm thinking David could tackle more than one of these posts. How about it?

[Tigermike 3,046]

Secretary of Defense: Tigermike. As far as I know you have no military experience and that is exactly what I want in a SECDEF. It's what the founding fathers wanted in our heads of the military, straight up civilians. My first job for you is to turn up the heat in Iraq by about 100 degrees. Our boys are extremely motivated but they're getting tired. Finish the job. Get with my secretary and get on my calendar. We need to chat.

   

I currently need recommendations for the following posts and reasons why:

Secretary of Agriculture

Secretary of the Interior

Secretary of Commerce

U.S. Attorney General

Secretary of Labor

Secretary of Education

Secretary of Energy

Secretary of Transportation

Secretary of Health & Human Services

Secretary of the Treasury

Secretary of Veterans Affairs

Secretary of Housing & Urban Development

I'm thinking David could tackle more than one of these posts. How about it?

240891[/snapback]

You may have to rethink your choice for Secretary of Defense, since I have the following strikes against me.

US Coast Guard - 4 years active, 2 inactive

Air National Guard - 6 years

Also if you only wish "to turn up the heat in Iraq by about 100 degrees", we will have our first disagreement. My first directive would be to turn up the heat in Iraq by about 200 degrees. Also to turn up the heat in Afghanistan by about 100 degrees. There would also be sniper teams deployed along the Iraq/Iran, Iraq/Syria Iraq/Saudi, Iraq/Jordan and Iraq/Turkey borders. There will be NO illegal immigration into or out of Iraq. ANY insurgents seen entering the country will be disposed of ten feet inside the borders. If their friends want to bury them, they can come on over and get them. But they should remember there will be NO illegal immigration into or out of Iraq.

I will make the following nominations for your consideration.

Secretary of Agriculture

Secretary of the Interior - WarChinook (Any one that knows what a Chinook is would be great in this position)

U.S. Attorney General - AUesquire (he is an attorney)

Secretary of Labor - DKW 86

Secretary of Education - Carolina Tiger (he is a teacher) I think.

Secretary of the Treasury - DKW 86

The Department's of Health & Human Services and Housing & Urban Development should be combined into ONE department with the directive to streamline and to make sure they are effective and accountable in all endeavors.

The Department's of Energy and Transportation will be combined with the directive to work together toward making this country energy independent.

[Ranger12 46]

    - Secretary of the Army: Ranger12. A former specops guy. Make me proud. You know what I want.

   

240891[/snapback]

Plausible deniability. Gotcha boss!

[WinCrimson 61]

Both sides are disappointing to me. I propose a change.

240663[/snapback]

Amen.