LegalEagle 22 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Well, we've got 4+ years in it now. What's the score? How has it helped us and/or hurt us? What's good and what is bad? I'll start, but I don't want to hog the thread or provide all of the info. I'm sure you have info I don't. Provide a link where possible. I'm anti-Iraq War, so I'll provide some bad: Bad things about the Iraqi War: 3123 dead brave American soldiers - http://icasualties.org/oif/ 23,417 brave American soldiers wounded - http://icasualties.org/oif/ $366,000,000,000 already spent w/ no end in sight - http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?op...&Itemid=182 Be sure to check out this site. Actions of rogue U. S. soldiers have tarnished our military around the world Naked prisoners - no link Rapes and murders - no link - but recent pleas and trials in news Our country going to war based on bogus intel will hurt our ability to gather support from others in the future for years to come - no link Our military and treasury are stretched thin, and that makes it difficult to coerce countries such as N. Korea and Iran - and I believe make it more likely we will strike them - without any invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottomfeeder 244 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Our country is worse off due to a rogue administration. Iraq posed no threat and distracted us from the real terrorists. The philosophy of creating a magnet in Iraq for terrorists is not smart because it doesn't work. Terrorists are smarter than our military strategist. It's all about US dollar hegemony and controlling the last remaining oil reserves in the world. That it. Even Z-Big says the fiasco in Iraq is a failure, and attacking Iran would be catastrophic for the US economy. He's right, if we attack Iran, the terrorist win because our economy, due to a weak dollar, will collapse. GDP numbers are high, but the weakening dollar is at issue. The gig is up, the dollar is bad currency because we have nothing to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otterinbham 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Afghanistan was a no-brainer. If we have to be there 20 years, then so be it. Iraq? It made no sense from the start. I argued against it from day one, even when it made me unpopular. It was ill-conceived, based on the flimsiest pretext devised since the War of Jenkin's Ear. Hey, Saddam was a first-class SOB, but this was a war to settle old scores, not one to defeat terrorism. If war is the extension of politics, then we sure screwed up badly. We never gave a thought to what would happen the day after our tanks rolled through Baghdad. There was no planning for occupation (I've sat in enough meetings with intelligence majors and colonels to know as much), unlike our defeat of Germany and Japan. There was no understanding of the internal political instability of Iraq. There were not enough troops committed, over the strident objections of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Essentially, we just shot our way in on a shoestring, dismantled what government was left in Iraq, and then watched the entire country cave in. Heck, when we occupied Nazi Germany, we still kept the remnants of the government in power to keep order. Wargame after wargame conducted before the war predicted a massive insurgency, yet there was no provision for it in the war plans. It wasn't a plan at all, in fact. It was just some terrible spasm. Colin Powell was right before the war when he said, "You break it, you own it." So we have a mess on our hands, and the only two alternatives are to commit to a long, grinding counter insurgency effort or bolt. Neither are palatable at all. For national prestige we have to stay. But it means stretching our forces then when there are real, not imaginary, threats looming over the horizon: North Korea. Iran. And an increasingly militant and expansionist China. And, lest you think I'm a dove, think again. I do a lot of work with the military. I've been to Afghanistan myself. I've interviewed officers, enlisted, and non-coms who have been in Iraq. On a tactical level, we've performed very well in the field. But these superb men and women are force to cope on a daily basis with a situation concocted by fools. The administration deserves its unpopularity. For we will be dealing with this problem long after Bush goes off into retirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottomfeeder 244 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Sad indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegalEagle 22 Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Where are all of the pro-Iraqi War folks? I thought this place was full of them! Aren't they "staying the course"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFTiger 282 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 You can have the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCTAU 3,350 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 We'll be dealing with terrorists long after Bush is gone. Just a lot fewer of them. Bush did what had to be done eventually. It was unpopular, ugly, and a bitch. But sometimes you have to clean the toilets. 20 years from now, the whole situation will be regarded as a turning point for America. Will we let the appeasers win? Or will America stand up and crush out all forms of terrorism around the world? Were mistakes made? Sure. The last time we had a global war on terror.....Oh wait. This is the first war of this kind. If you think that live and let live would have worked, then I just pray that the fallout affects yours more than mine. Also, when quoting deaths in Iraq, please use combat related deaths. Soldiers die from many different accidents. They die here of the same accidents. Inflation of the numbers helps no-one. Also publish the number of dead terrorists, captured terrorists, and terroristic plots thwarted around the world due to information gleened from terrorists captured in Iraq that came from around the globe to help with jihad. This is a war, not just in Iraq, but globally. If the enemy so chooses to gather in Iraq, better yet. I would rather meet them there than on my street. We are where we are due to an inept and corrupt UN. Bush did what he thought was necessary. AND MOST DIMS BACKED HIM. So this is not just his war. He is just the only one with balls enough to finish what was started....pretty or not. War is not pretty. So nothing about this war gives happiness. But it does seem to be having a more positve global effect. N Korea is talking. The Shah is telling mmaljrehreohoa (what's his name) not to piss off the great satan. The resolve of our president and many folks in the US is not being lost on those who would fall under our umbrella of wrath. Do not thin that our military is stretched so thin that we could not deal with NK or Iran. NK and Iran know the consequences. They are now using our media and libruls to fight their war with us on our soil. But they too know, that in the end, they could be next. I mean, hey, that crazy ass Bush is in control. Who knows what will happen next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegalEagle 22 Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 You can have the thread. Kinda cryptic there. What do you mean? I'm not agreeing to pay property taxes on it! I just want an honest assessment by all that have taken positions about the war through the years. What is yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger in Spain 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 You can have the thread. Kinda cryptic there. What do you mean? Speaking for myself here; it means choosing not to argue with Bush-hating simpletons. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otterinbham 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 You can have the thread. Kinda cryptic there. What do you mean? Speaking for myself here; it means choosing not to argue with Bush-hating simpletons. Carry on. Hey, I don't like Bush. But I'm no simpleton. I have very clear-cut reasons why the Iraq war was a bad idea from the outset--reasons I have argued since before we ever crossed the frontier. Reflective advocates of judicious military action are allowed to disagree with what we've done. What I don't care for is the belief of some in this "All or nothing" approach to what has been done. Iraq, unlike Afghanistan, was tangential to our War on Terror. And, rather than inspiring fear of the US, our operations there have bolstered an international belief that we are tied down in a conflict that was unnecessary and actually undercut our ability to fight the true enemy. It will continue to drain manpower and resources that could be used elsewhere. Oh, and the use of torture did nothing to help the country's image. And anybody whose kneejerk reaction is, "Who cares what the world thinks?" has zero comprehension of successful asymmetrical warfare, the only way we're going to win this conflict. While death of any serviceman is a terrible thing, the casualty counts in Iraq are very low. After all, the Philippine Insurrection (how many of you read about that in your history books?) took 5,000 American lives, far more than the Spanish American war itself. The thing is, there are a number of successes that you don't hear about: Afghanistan is now a back-burner conflict. The Philippines are a remarkable success. Libya has now worked hard to climb off our sh8tlist. And our new-found buddies, the Ethiopians, seemed to have handed Al-Queda a setback in Somalia. These were all areas that had proved fertile ground for radical Islam. Iraq, however, had not. So now we are in for a protracted struggle where one was simply not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCTAU 3,350 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I don't recall any torture. We have been through this already. Not one of those prisoners lost a fingernail. No bamboo shoots up the wazoo, and no beheadings. So there has been no torture. I resent you claiming such. And if we are percieved to be incapable of handling another conflict, then why is there all of a sudden an open dialogue with those countries that were taunting us. I think you listen to the media too much. I thik the leaders of librul Europe put less stock in the media than you. For they know not to underextimate the US. Only our libruls and media make that mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otterinbham 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I don't recall any torture. We have been through this already. Not one of those prisoners lost a fingernail. No bamboo shoots up the wazoo, and no beheadings. So there has been no torture. I resent you claiming such. And if we are percieved to be incapable of handling another conflict, then why is there all of a sudden an open dialogue with those countries that were taunting us. I think you listen to the media too much. I thik the leaders of librul Europe put less stock in the media than you. For they know not to underextimate the US. Only our libruls and media make that mistake. Waterboarding is not torture? News to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFTiger 282 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I don't recall any torture. We have been through this already. Not one of those prisoners lost a fingernail. No bamboo shoots up the wazoo, and no beheadings. So there has been no torture. I resent you claiming such. And if we are percieved to be incapable of handling another conflict, then why is there all of a sudden an open dialogue with those countries that were taunting us. I think you listen to the media too much. I thik the leaders of librul Europe put less stock in the media than you. For they know not to underextimate the US. Only our libruls and media make that mistake. Waterboarding is not torture? News to me. Waterboarding was not considered torture until the NY Times declared it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otterinbham 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Excuse me? Waterboarding has long been considered torture, along with sleep deprivation, and a host of other interrogation procedures. In fact, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFTiger 282 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I am sure the soldiers there went through POW training and experienced those techniques will be glad to hear that. All reported that waterboarding made you talk but it was never considered torture. This is torture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otterinbham 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I am sure the soldiers there went through POW training and experienced those techniques will be glad to hear that. All reported that waterboarding made you talk but it was never considered torture. This is torture! Actually, anything that causes physical pain and trauma is torture. Kind of like watching the Grammy awards last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFTiger 282 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I am sure the soldiers there went through POW training and experienced those techniques will be glad to hear that. All reported that waterboarding made you talk but it was never considered torture. This is torture! Actually, anything that causes physical pain and trauma is torture. Kind of like watching the Grammy awards last night. So I was tortured by my parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otterinbham 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I am sure the soldiers there went through POW training and experienced those techniques will be glad to hear that. All reported that waterboarding made you talk but it was never considered torture. This is torture! Actually, anything that causes physical pain and trauma is torture. Kind of like watching the Grammy awards last night. So I was tortured by my parents? Sure. You could have them tried for crimes against humanity. Nobody should be forced to watch the Grammys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,126 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 A necessary war, but it was poorly executed after the initial fall of Baghdad. Too few soldiers were committed to securing the peace, because too much attention was given to the PC morons who wrongly assumed that heavy U.S. presence in Iraq would be seen as a bad thing. Once we failed to level Fallujah, we lost the post-war. The intel wasn't as bogus was many are trying to lead us to believe. Hillary Clinton even independently checked w/ her old WH buddies to cross reference what she was being told, and their intel matched up w/ what Bush was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottomfeeder 244 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Good for the contractors, bad for the tax-payer. So, to all of you so-called conservatives the taxes must be paid one way or another. Iraq for Sale: The War Profiteers (part 1 of 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFTiger 282 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I am sure the soldiers there went through POW training and experienced those techniques will be glad to hear that. All reported that waterboarding made you talk but it was never considered torture. This is torture! Actually, anything that causes physical pain and trauma is torture. Kind of like watching the Grammy awards last night. So I was tortured by my parents? Sure. You could have them tried for crimes against humanity. Nobody should be forced to watch the Grammys. I don't think Bottomfeeder was tortured by his parents. But I do think he was dropped on his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottomfeeder 244 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 What amazes me is that you actually think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFTiger 282 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 What amazes me is that you actually think. Well thanks, even though you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottomfeeder 244 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I can't help it, it comes natural. Think and grow rich. http://www.innocentive.com/servlets/projec...?type=Chemistry http://www.innocentive.com/servlets/project/ProjectInfo.po Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autigeremt 6,717 Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 I don't recall any torture. We have been through this already. Not one of those prisoners lost a fingernail. No bamboo shoots up the wazoo, and no beheadings. So there has been no torture. I resent you claiming such. And if we are percieved to be incapable of handling another conflict, then why is there all of a sudden an open dialogue with those countries that were taunting us. I think you listen to the media too much. I thik the leaders of librul Europe put less stock in the media than you. For they know not to underextimate the US. Only our libruls and media make that mistake. Waterboarding is not torture? News to me. We should be fighting a war with all options on the table! We have been one of the only nations on the planet to go by the "Acts of War" set up by the Geneva convention. Sept. 11th changed all that for me. I want to take it to the enemy on THIER SOIL, not HERE! And yes.....I am a Veteran of the U.S. Army, and I still have sand in a pair of boots from the first Gulf War, so I HAVE ALL THE RIGHT TO COMMENT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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