Honda FCX Clarity

[RunInRed 16,454]

It looks like Honda has launched the full details on their website for their new hydrogen fuel cell car. Is this the future of automobiles? This vehicle is currently only available to some Southern Californians on a limited basis. I wish I could get one of these...they don't look bad at all...

Some of the specs:

Epa Mileage Estimates

City/Highway/Combined 77 / 67 / 72

Driving Range 270

The FCX Clarity is capable of traveling about 270 miles before refueling, a reasonable distance for most people. When you do need fuel, it’s easy and safe to do at one of the designated hydrogen refueling stations in your area (these will clearly have to be developed). The fill-up only takes a few minutes.

Honda is also working toward a future where you may be able to fuel up right in your own garage using a Home Energy Station

V Flow Fuel Cell Stack

Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cell (PEMFC) Standard

Power Output 100kW

Size (liters) 57

Weight (lbs) 148

Electric Motor

AC Synchronous Permanent-Magnet Electric Motor Standard

Horsepower (SAE net) 134

Torque (lb-ft @ rpm) 189 @ 0 - 3,056

Power Output 100kW

How it works: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

[TitanTiger 20,508]

Man, that's a really low horsepower motor for a 1 3/4 ton car. The power to weight ratio is about half that of a Ford Focus or Nissan Versa.

Granted, speed isn't what they're most concerned about, but they need to get that up a good bit before this car goes mainstream.

[RunInRed 16,454]

Man, that's a really low horsepower motor for a 1 3/4 ton car. The power to weight ratio is about half that of a Ford Focus or Nissan Versa.

Granted, speed isn't what they're most concerned about, but they need to get that up a good bit before this car goes mainstream.

Yeah, good point. But as you said, I would assume that the buyers of this car don't exactly have power/speed at the top of their list. Articles state that the car propels from zero to 60 mph in around 9.2 seconds on the way to a top speed of 100 mph - some what reasonable (about the same as a 4 cylinder Accord).

A bit more info (including a tad about hyrdrogen safety)...

Test drive video:

Like all hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, the Clarity generates electricity by combining hydrogen and oxygen, the byproduct of which is pure, drinkable water that dribbles out of a tailpipe. Electricity from the fuel cell powers an electric motor, which drives the car forward much like a typical electric vehicle, but without the weight of lead-acid or nickel-cadmium batteries.

Astute students of history will notice that these vehicles are powered by the same gas that lifted (and roasted) the Hindenburg, but Honda insists the FCX is safe for on-road use thanks to a number of safety features that have been built in. Hydrogen sensors positioned all around the car, for instance, will detect leaks and shut down supply lines automatically, while check valves in the filling system ensure that the high-pressure gas can only go in, and not out.

The Clarity adopts the same 110-inch wheelbase as its gasoline-powered cousin, the Accord, but sheds its muscular profile for more decidedly aerodynamic shape that’s more reminiscent of the now-iconic Toyota Prius. The frame has also been lightened with aluminum to accommodate for the extra weight of the fuel cell package, bringing curb weight to 3582 pounds, about average for a sedan of its size.

As for how fast the Clarity will go, Honda makes no bold performance claims. The Clarity’s electric motor will deliver just 134 horsepower and 189 foot-pounds of torque, although it’s slightly unfair to compare electric motors with gasoline engines because they vary so significantly in power characteristics (they deliver maximum torque right from 0 RPM, for instance.)

http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/first-loo...ty-hydrogen-car

Also...One thing that caught me off guard was that Honda only plans to produce 300 in the next 3 years and that the fuel cell won't be in mass production until around 2015...can this be right?! Why would it take so long (the obvious - hydrogen refill stations/infrastructure support?).

See production info: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127273

[BamaGrad03 0]

What's the feasibility of getting refueling stations for these?

Is the industry going to have to get together on some "next gen" standard and everyone move forward in that capacity? I think having some electric, some fuel cell, some hybrid is going to cause consumer and infastructure issues.

We need to decide on a technology so we can determine how to do the refueling stations.

[RunInRed 16,454]

What's the feasibility of getting refueling stations for these?

Is the industry going to have to get together on some "next gen" standard and everyone move forward in that capacity? I think having some electric, some fuel cell, some hybrid is going to cause consumer and infastructure issues.

We need to decide on a technology so we can determine how to do the refueling stations.

This is clearly the biggest obstacle for mass production. But I think the tea leaves are clearly on the wall in the direction we are heading. I still don't understand why the guys in Detroit continue to let the Japanese lead in Hyrids and Fuel Cells but I digress...

Here's some more info on refueling from Honda..

Increasing the number of convenient hydrogen refueling options is one of the last remaining hurdles to widespread adoption of fuel cell vehicles. Honda took a proactive approach to this challenge, and our research and development in this area is ongoing.

We have experience in the development of power stations to generate heat and electricity (co-generation technology), as well as experience with home-refueled electric and natural gas vehicles. So it was a natural next step for us to leverage that learning to explore potential solutions to the hydrogen refueling dilemma.

The Home Energy Station

Honda has operated an experimental Home Energy Station in Torrance, California, since 2003. The Home Energy Station, which generates hydrogen from natural gas, is designed to provide heat and electricity for the home through fuel cell co-generation and to supply fuel for a hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicle.

Honda has worked in cooperation with technology partner Plug Power, Inc., to reduce size and increase convenience in each subsequent generation of the Home Energy Station. In 2007 Honda developed Home Energy Station IV—which is even more efficient and better suited for home use than previous versions. CO2 emissions for a household using the Home Energy Station are 30% lower than those for an average household using a gasoline-engine car and commercial electricity and heat.

Honda believes in a future society powered by hydrogen, and we are serious about our commitment to contribute to the development of refueling solutions we can all live with.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/h...gy-station.aspx

[pensacola tiger 0]

Question for some really astute AU chemist (or some other science related type person)........Let's assume for a moment that at some point in the not to distant future the majority of vehicles in use are hydrogen powered. Since they emit water vapor and heat would that mean that the humidity of the atmosphere could/would be adversely affected? In which case we would then have a problem not with overheating but with over watering? Not trying to be negative about the concept, just wondering.

[autigeremt 6,660]

If a total conversion were to take place, there's no way you couldn't have an increase of humidity in the low level atmosphere. How much would be the million dollar question.

I am looking at this from a safety standpoint. Hydrogen and an ignition source would be scary. I have often wondered about this, and I'm not sure we want to be around a hydrogen powered car after a major wreck.

[au2004ece 30]

Also...One thing that caught me off guard was that Honda only plans to produce 300 in the next 3 years and that the fuel cell won't be in mass production until around 2015...can this be right?! Why would it take so long (the obvious - hydrogen refill stations/infrastructure support?).

See production info: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127273

The biggest hurdle to mass production is that these cars now cost at least $1,000,000 each to produce. They are producing so few because they are losing money on them and are letting customers lease them at less than cost as a way to research their usage.

[RunInRed 16,454]

Also...One thing that caught me off guard was that Honda only plans to produce 300 in the next 3 years and that the fuel cell won't be in mass production until around 2015...can this be right?! Why would it take so long (the obvious - hydrogen refill stations/infrastructure support?).

See production info: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127273

The biggest hurdle to mass production is that these cars now cost at least $1,000,000 each to produce. They are producing so few because they are losing money on them and are letting customers lease them at less than cost as a way to research their usage.

1M each and yet they are leasing them for $600/month? Some how I doubt that. Do you have a link for us?

[au2004ece 30]

Don't doubt me, you could have done a google search yourself.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/...ion=money_autos

Honda has previously estimated it will cost about $1 million to build each car.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127273

Fukui says that he plans to bring a fuel-cell vehicle to mass production by 2016. If the technology keeps advancing at this rate and material and development costs can continue to come down — from the estimated $1 million per current FCX Clarity, "then we might be looking at a viable hydrogen-powered vehicle for the mass market at the price of a luxury car within eight to 10 years."

The technology has to advance before the cost can come down. That's why they only plan to make 300. They are losing money by leasing them at only $600 per month.

So if I applied the anti-drillers argument, since we will only see benefits from hydrogen vehicles in 8 to 10 years, that means Honda shouldn't pursue this effort.

[RunInRed 16,454]

So if I applied the anti-drillers argument, since we will only see benefits from hydrogen vehicles in 8 to 10 years, that means Honda shouldn't pursue this effort.

Of course, I'm sure you figured into your equation that oil is a finite resource, where as hydrogen is for all practical purposes, clean and infinite. My problem with drilling has never been the time frame, it is that oil is nothing more than a band-aid for the problem. An alternative form of energy like hydrogen on the other hand, could be a solution. So if you are going to invest the time and money to do something, why not solve the problem instead of continuing to push it under the rug?

[au2004ece 30]

So if I applied the anti-drillers argument, since we will only see benefits from hydrogen vehicles in 8 to 10 years, that means Honda shouldn't pursue this effort.

Of course, I'm sure you figured into your equation that oil is a finite resource, where as hydrogen is for all practical purposes, clean and infinite. My problem with drilling has never been the time frame, it is that oil is nothing more than a band-aid for the problem. An alternative form of energy like hydrogen on the other hand, could be a solution. So if you are going to invest the time and money to do something, why not solve the problem instead of continuing to push it under the rug?

Why not, while you are developing the next best thing, also use the current resources? There is no way that we will look back 10 or 20 years from now and wish we had less oil.

[RunInRed 16,454]

So if I applied the anti-drillers argument, since we will only see benefits from hydrogen vehicles in 8 to 10 years, that means Honda shouldn't pursue this effort.

Of course, I'm sure you figured into your equation that oil is a finite resource, where as hydrogen is for all practical purposes, clean and infinite. My problem with drilling has never been the time frame, it is that oil is nothing more than a band-aid for the problem. An alternative form of energy like hydrogen on the other hand, could be a solution. So if you are going to invest the time and money to do something, why not solve the problem instead of continuing to push it under the rug?

Why not, while you are developing the next best thing, also use the current resources? There is no way that we will look back 10 or 20 years from now and wish we had less oil.

Cost (not just dollars)/Benefit analysis. Other alternatives are available. Pursuing oil at this time is beyond stupid - both from a practical and business perspective. Oil is not the way of the future. In fact, I don't think it will be our primary energy source 10-15 years from now. OPEC/Big Oil/Speculaters/name-your-blame-source, are making their own beds...

[au2004ece 30]

Cost (not just dollars)/Benefit analysis. Other alternatives are available. Pursuing oil at this time is beyond stupid - both from a practical and business perspective. Oil is not the way of the future. In fact, I don't think it will be our primary energy source 10-15 years from now. OPEC/Big Oil/Speculaters/name-your-blame-source, are making their own beds...

Pursuing oil at this time is beyond a no-brainer. If you can sell oil at $145 a barrel, then you find it and sell it. Oil is the way of the now. Oil will be the primary energy source until something better comes along. Using a cost benefit analysis (not just dollars), oil is still by far the best energy source or else we would have already moved to some other source. You don't seem to understand or have any confidence in a free market system.