Shoot or Don't Shoot?

[Barnacle 9,065]

I thought this was a very interesting video. Respect to the activist for being willing to take part, and to reflect honestly about his experience. 

[AURaptor 1,137]

Imagine trying to arrest an uncooperative person, with a group of people around you, yelling at you , holding up cell phones and recording everything.... cop could intend to do everything 100% by the book, but gets distracted, and someone ends up dead, needlessly. 

[cole256 17,085]

I imagine the job is hard, so are the consequences....sorry but an oops not acceptable in some situations. My job is highly stressful, I knew that when I signed up. If I was to make a mistake and even threaten the health or safety to the public??? Bye bye

[alexava 6,974]

You accept some degree of risk as an LEO. You can't just shoot everyone who is " possibly " a threat. However we as citizens should not contribute to that possibility then complain about our mistreatment.

[cole256 17,085]

NOBODY should be mistreated, but when you're not the target it's easy to talk about what you shouldn't do

[AUFAN78 4,061]

Given the info I have right now, I don't like how either of the police shootings transpired and I don't feel this level of force was necessary in either case. I'm not the judge nor the jury and I will let the facts of each case come out before I make my final determination. However, I have serious doubts my mind will change.

[alexava 6,974]

50 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Given the info I have right now, I don't like how either of the police shootings transpired and I don't feel this level of force was necessary in either case. I'm not the judge nor the jury and I will let the facts of each case come out before I make my final determination. However, I have serious doubts my mind will change.

i agree and admit i don't know much. however the on in MN now that i know there was a gun in his lap, i think the cop will have plenty of reasonable doubt to avoid a murder conviction. either way his life is not going to be the same.

[alexava 6,974]

there is another in Houston now that is going to rile people up.

[homersapien 11,812]

1 hour ago, alexava said:

i agree and admit i don't know much. however the on in MN now that i know there was a gun in his lap, i think the cop will have plenty of reasonable doubt to avoid a murder conviction. either way his life is not going to be the same.

I don't think a "murder" charge was ever in play.  I don't think he intended to kill anyone when he stopped them.  Something like Negligent Manslaughter would be more appropriate.  I think he just lost his composure and panicked.   Racial bias probably played a role.

[alexava 6,974]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I don't think a "murder" charge was ever in play.  I don't think he intended to kill anyone when he stopped them.  Something like Negligent Manslaughter would be more appropriate.  I think he just lost his composure and panicked.   Racial bias probably played a role.

It may have, the cop is Hispanic too. With a gun in his lap and it being his story vs the girlfriend I see no conviction at all. Not defending cop at all but having a gun in your lap during a traffic stop is not a good idea. Especially if you have experienced racial bias from police. 

[tgr4lfe 220]

23 hours ago, cole256 said:

I imagine the job is hard, so are the consequences....sorry but an oops not acceptable in some situations. My job is highly stressful, I knew that when I signed up. If I was to make a mistake and even threaten the health or safety to the public??? Bye bye

Does your job entail, dealing with the worst of the worst of people?  fear that the next contact you make with a person they will try to kill you b/c of the uniform you wear?  

The point of the video and him doing this was to see the other side, which it sounds like he had a healthier respect for the types of decisions made.  Yes, LEOs take the job knowing the RISKs involved, that does NOT mean that those RISK are acceptable when they happen and it's quite ridiculous for anyone to say otherwise.  I think this guys eyes were opened, especially after shooting the unarmed guy who came at him and got in his space.  I wish a lot of folks on here could go through a similar exercise.  You have no idea until you actually have done it, what it is like to have to make decisions like that in the blink of an eye.  If an officer does something wreckless, malicious, calculated, or premeditated, then by all means they should be charged.  All the tensions are making LE incredibly more difficult.  Look at what has happened in Baltimore and Cleveland since they stepped back off police stopping people, especially in the inner city, crime and murder is sky-rocketing.

[wdefromtx 3,313]

11 minutes ago, tgr4lfe said:

Does your job entail, dealing with the worst of the worst of people?  fear that the next contact you make with a person they will try to kill you b/c of the uniform you wear?  

The point of the video and him doing this was to see the other side, which it sounds like he had a healthier respect for the types of decisions made.  Yes, LEOs take the job knowing the RISKs involved, that does NOT mean that those RISK are acceptable when they happen and it's quite ridiculous for anyone to say otherwise.  I think this guys eyes were opened, especially after shooting the unarmed guy who came at him and got in his space.  I wish a lot of folks on here could go through a similar exercise.  You have no idea until you actually have done it, what it is like to have to make decisions like that in the blink of an eye.  If an officer does something wreckless, malicious, calculated, or premeditated, then by all means they should be charged.  All the tensions are making LE incredibly more difficult.  Look at what has happened in Baltimore and Cleveland since they stepped back off police stopping people, especially in the inner city, crime and murder is sky-rocketing.

Agreed. And the tension is only getting worse. 

[aujeff11 6,243]

 The military deals with these tensions all the time and they try to deal with them internally. Nobody likes the feeling that your hands are tied behind your back, but let's face it, these incidents were pretty cut and dry and split second decisions were not really necessary. I saw Alton being largely compliant when the cops decided to tackle his heavy body to the ground. Just why? They knew that he had a gun and that he was huge.... So just why? If I was a cop I'd be doing everything I can to avoid wrestling him to the ground, not being the one to initiate the fight,

[alexava 6,974]

3 hours ago, aujeff11 said:

 The military deals with these tensions all the time and they try to deal with them internally. Nobody likes the feeling that your hands are tied behind your back, but let's face it, these incidents were pretty cut and dry and split second decisions were not really necessary. I saw Alton being largely compliant when the cops decided to tackle his heavy body to the ground. Just why? They knew that he had a gun and that he was huge.... So just why? If I was a cop I'd be doing everything I can to avoid wrestling him to the ground, not being the one to initiate the fight,

yea. what they did to him on the ground might not be too bad it he initiated it. and while we didn't see everything i also though he was somewhat compliant. just calmly talking to him for a minute might have led to him giving up his gun and cooperating. i am interested to see the body cam but it appeared they bum rushed him.

[tgr4lfe 220]

Must read by a black male FL police officer:

Quote

 

 

 

Jay Stalien

July 9 at 1:39pm · 

I have come to realize something that is still hard for me to understand to this day. The following may be a shock to some coming from an African American, but the mere fact that it may be shocking to some is prima facie evidence of the sad state of affairs that we are in as Humans.

I used to be so torn inside growing up. Here I am, a young African-American born and raised in Brooklyn, NY wanting to be a cop. I watched and lived through the crime that took place in the hood. My own black people killing others over nothing. Crack heads and heroin addicts lined the lobby of my building as I shuffled around them to make my way to our 1 bedroom apartment with 6 of us living inside. I used to be woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of gun fire, only to look outside and see that it was 2 African Americans shooting at each other.

It never sat right with me. I wanted to help my community and stop watching the blood of African Americans spilled on the street at the hands of a fellow black man. I became a cop because black lives in my community, along with ALL lives, mattered to me, and wanted to help stop the bloodshed.

As time went by in my law enforcement career, I quickly began to realize something. I remember the countless times I stood 2 inches from a young black man, around my age, laying on his back, gasping for air as blood filled his lungs. I remember them bleeding profusely with the unforgettable smell of deoxygenated dark red blood in the air, as it leaked from the bullet holes in his body on to the hot sidewalk on a summer day. I remember the countless family members who attacked me, spit on me, cursed me out, as I put up crime scene tape to cordon off the crime scene, yelling and screaming out of pain and anger at the sight of their loved ones taking their last breath. I never took it personally, I knew they were hurting. I remember the countless times I had to order new uniforms, because the ones I had on, were bloody from the blood of another black victim…of black on black crime. I remember the countless times I got back in my patrol car, distraught after having watched another black male die in front me, having to start my preliminary report something like this:

Suspect- Black/ Male, Victim-Black /Male.

I remember the countless times I canvassed the area afterwards, and asked everyone “did you see who did it”, and the popular response from the very same family members was always, “**** the Police, I ain't no snitch, Im gonna take care of this myself". This happened every single time, every single homicide, black on black, and then my realization became clearer.

I woke up every morning, put my freshly pressed uniform on, shined my badge, functioned checked my weapon, kissed my wife and kid, and waited for my wife to say the same thing she always does before I leave, “Make sure you come back home to us”. I always replied, “I will”, but the truth was I was never sure if I would. I almost lost my life on this job, and every call, every stop, every moment that I had this uniform on, was another possibility for me to almost lose my life again. I was a target in the very community I swore to protect, the very community I wanted to help. As a matter of fact, they hated my very presence. They called me “Uncle Tom”, and “wanna be white boy”, and I couldn’t understand why. My own fellow black men and women attacking me, wishing for my death, wishing for the death of my family. I was so confused, so torn, I couldn’t understand why my own black people would turn against me, when every time they called …I was there. Every time someone died….I was there. Every time they were going through one of the worst moments in their lives…I was there. So why was I the enemy? I dove deep into that question…Why was I the enemy? Then my realization became clearer.

I spoke to members of the community and listened to some of the complaints as to why they hated cops. I then did research on the facts. I also presented facts to these members of the community, and listened to their complaints in response. This is what I learned:

Complaint: Police always targeting us, they always messing with the black man.

Fact: A city where the majority of citizens are black (Baltimore for example) …will ALWAYS have a higher rate of black people getting arrested, it will ALWAYS have a higher rate of blacks getting stopped, and will ALWAYS have a higher rate of blacks getting killed, and the reason why is because a city with those characteristics will ALWAYS have a higher rate of blacks committing crime. The statistics will follow the same trend for Asians if you go to China, for Hispanics if you go to Puerto Rico, for whites if you go to Russia, and the list goes on. It’s called Demographics

Complaint: More black people get arrested than white boys.

Fact: Black People commit a grossly disproportionate amount of crime. Data from the FBI shows that Nationwide, Blacks committed 5,173 homicides in 2014, whites committed 4,367. Chicago’s death toll is almost equal to that of both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, combined. Chicago’s death toll from 2001–November, 26 2015 stands at 7,401. The combined total deaths during Operation Iraqi Freedom (2003-2015: 4,815) and Operation Enduring Freedom/Afghanistan (2001-2015: 3,506), total 8,321.

Complaint: Blacks are the only ones getting killed by police, or they are killed more.

Fact: As of July 2016, the breakdown of the number of US Citizens killed by Police this year is, 238 White people killed, 123 Black people killed, 79 Hispanics, 69 other/or unknown race.

Fact: Black people kill more other blacks than Police do, and there are only protest and outrage when a cop kills a black man. University of Toledo criminologist Dr. Richard R. Johnson examined the latest crime data from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports and Centers for Disease Control and found that an average of 4,472 black men were killed by other black men annually between Jan. 1, 2009, and Dec. 31, 2012. Professor Johnson’s research further concluded that 112 black men died from both justified and unjustified police-involved killings annually during this same period.

Complaint: Well we already doing a good job of killing ourselves, we don’t need the Police to do it. Besides they should know better.

The more I listened, the more I realized. The more I researched, the more I realized. I would ask questions, and would only get emotional responses & inferences based on no facts at all. The more killing I saw, the more tragedy, the more savagery, the more violence, the more loss of life of a black man at the hands of another black man….the more I realized.

I haven’t slept well in the past few nights. Heartbreak weighs me down, rage flows through my veins, and tears fills my eyes. I watched my fellow officers assassinated on live television, and the images of them laying on the ground are seared into my brain forever. I couldn’t help but wonder if it had been me, a black man, a black cop, on TV, assassinated, laying on the ground dead,..would my friends and family still think black lives mattered? Would my life have mattered? Would they make t-shirts in remembrance of me? Would they go on tv and protest violence? Would they even make a Facebook post, or share a post in reference to my death?

All of my realizations came to this conclusion. Black Lives do not matter to most black people. Only the lives that make the national news matter to them. Only the lives that are taken at the hands of cops or white people, matter. The other thousands of lives lost, the other black souls that I along with every cop, have seen taken at the hands of other blacks, do not matter. Their deaths are unnoticed, accepted as the “norm”, and swept underneath the rug by the very people who claim and post “black lives matter”. I realized that this country is full of ignorance, where an educated individual will watch the ratings-driven news media, and watch a couple YouTube video clips, and then come to the conclusion that they have all the knowledge they need to have in order to know what it feels like to have a bullet proof vest as part of your office equipment, “Stay Alive” as part of your daily to do list, and having insurance for your health insurance because of the high rate of death in your profession. They watch a couple videos and then they magically know in 2 minutes 35 seconds, how you are supposed to handle a violent encounter, which took you 6 months of Academy training, 2 – 3 months of field training, and countless years of blood, sweat, tears and broken bones experiencing violent encounters and fine tuning your execution of the Use of Force Continuum. I realized that there are even cops, COPS, duly sworn law enforcement officers, who are supposed to be decent investigators, who will publicly go on the media and call other white cops racist and KKK, based on a video clip that they watched thousands of miles away, which was filmed after the fact, based on a case where the details aren’t even known yet and the investigation hasn’t even begun. I realized that most in the African American community refuse to look at solving the bigger problem that I see and deal with every day, which is black on black crime taking hundreds of innocent black lives each year, and instead focus on the 9 questionable deaths of black men, where some were in the act of committing crimes. I realized that they value the life of a Sex Offender and Convicted Felon, [who was in the act of committing multiple felonies: felon in possession of a firearm-FELONY, brandishing and threatening a homeless man with a gun-Aggravated Assault in Florida: FELONY, who resisted officers who first tried to taze him, and WAS NOT RESTRAINED, who can be clearly seen in one of the videos raising his right shoulder, then shooting it down towards the right side of his body exactly where the firearm was located and recovered] more than the lives of the innocent cops who were assassinated in Dallas protecting the very people that hated them the most. I realized that they refuse to believe that most cops acknowledge that there are Bad cops who should have never been given a badge & gun, who are chicken s*** and will shoot a cockroach if it crawls at them too fast, who never worked in the hood and may be intimidated. That most cops dread the thought of having to shoot someone, and never see the turmoil and mental anguish that a cop goes through after having to kill someone to save his own life. Instead they believe that we are all blood thirsty killers, because the media says so, even though the numbers prove otherwise. I realize that they truly feel as if the death of cops will help people realize the false narrative that Black Lives Matter, when all it will do is take their movement two steps backwards and label them domestic terrorist. I realized that some of these people, who say Black Lives Matter, are full of hate and racism. Hate for cops, because of the false narrative that more black people are targeted and killed. Racism against white people, for a tragedy that began 100’s of years ago, when most of the white people today weren’t even born yet. I realized that some in the African American community’s idea of “Justice” is the prosecution of ANY and EVERY cop or white man that kills or is believed to have killed a black man, no matter what the circumstances are. I realized the African American community refuses to look within to solve its major issues, and instead makes excuses and looks outside for solutions. I realized that a lot of people in the African American community lead with hate, instead of love. Division instead of Unity. Turmoil and rioting, instead of Peace. I realized that they have become the very entity that they claim they are fighting against.

I realized that the very reasons I became a cop, are the very reasons my own people hate me, and now in this toxic hateful racially charged political climate, I am now more likely to die,... and it is still hard for me to understand…. to this day.

 

 

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I'll start a new topic for discussions of this

[SaturdayGT 719]

Good stuff!! Must read indeed!

[tgr4lfe 220]

On 7/11/2016 at 2:11 PM, aujeff11 said:

 The military deals with these tensions all the time and they try to deal with them internally. Nobody likes the feeling that your hands are tied behind your back, but let's face it, these incidents were pretty cut and dry and split second decisions were not really necessary. I saw Alton being largely compliant when the cops decided to tackle his heavy body to the ground. Just why? They knew that he had a gun and that he was huge.... So just why? If I was a cop I'd be doing everything I can to avoid wrestling him to the ground, not being the one to initiate the fight,

 

On 7/11/2016 at 5:52 PM, alexava said:

yea. what they did to him on the ground might not be too bad it he initiated it. and while we didn't see everything i also though he was somewhat compliant. just calmly talking to him for a minute might have led to him giving up his gun and cooperating. i am interested to see the body cam but it appeared they bum rushed him.

I'm sure they did b/c of non-compliance.  I don't know if at that moment they knew for certain he had a weapon, but if they did know it was in his pocket, I'm sure they felt they needed to attempt to gain control of him to keep him from getting the gun.  Maybe feeling with the two of them they could do that, since the tazer was not effective.  I suggest you all educate yourselves on the  use of force continuum.  

I'd love see some posters on here try their hand at similar scenarios.......

[aujeff11 6,243]

The police were called to the scene because they heard he was possibly threatening a guy with a gun. So of course they knew he had a weapon on his person.Instead of gaining control of the suspect, they could have gained control of the situation by talking to him. The suspect was after all, compliant. I'm highly trained in EOF. I get the concept of the Use of force continuum. I get that there may have been something going on beforehand but in the video, the suspect was compliant.