Apple vs 4th Amendment

[DKW 86 7,431]

 

[AU9377 4,977]

I agree with him.  The irony is that Apple fought harder than anyone to prevent the government from being able to seize phones and get around personal passwords.  They lost that fight in court and now it looks like they want to just join in.  I also despise children being taken advantage of in any way, but I have to wonder if the program scanning files is going to pop a warning on every picture of a kid in a bath tub taken by a mom or dad that thought it was cute that he was talking to his ducks.

[AUGunsmith 666]

Not actually a 4th amendment violation since it isn't the govt doing the searching. 

On 8/21/2021 at 10:15 AM, AU9377 said:

I agree with him.  The irony is that Apple fought harder than anyone to prevent the government from being able to seize phones and get around personal passwords.  They lost that fight in court and now it looks like they want to just join in.  I also despise children being taken advantage of in any way, but I have to wonder if the program scanning files is going to pop a warning on every picture of a kid in a bath tub taken by a mom or dad that thought it was cute that he was talking to his ducks.

The state backed down from it's court attempts to force apple to unlock. 

This is why the state pays big money for people who figure out workarounds to phone encryption

[DKW 86 7,431]

2 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

Not actually a 4th amendment violation since it isn't the govt doing the searching. 

The state backed down from it's court attempts to force apple to unlock. 

This is why the state pays big money for people who figure out workarounds to phone encryption

Do you actually believe that? Apple and all the others sell our meta dat and searches and etc all the time. 

[AUGunsmith 666]

2 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Do you actually believe that? Apple and all the others sell our meta dat and searches and etc all the time. 

Do I believe what? Believe that the us govt backed down because it knew it would lose the legal battle so it kept it's work in a grey area? 

That it isn't a 4th amendment violation for apple to make accepting these searches as terms of use?

Or that the state pays big money for people finding backdoors?

 

All 3 questions aren't beliefs but statements if fact. Well the 1st isn't complete fact, more of a understood and an opportunity cost analysis

 

Metadata has nothing to do with 4A unless it is the state actively gathering it, which it does in a massive scale and is another discussion. The US people are the most spied on in history, but as long as it isn't the govt doing the collecting it isn't a 4a issue. 

[DKW 86 7,431]

meta data AND other data....They are gathering whether you want to admit it or not. I deal with about 100-125 cell phones in my job. 
You are crazy if you dont KNOW they are already selling everything you do in and on your cell device.

[AUGunsmith 666]

35 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

meta data AND other data....They are gathering whether you want to admit it or not. I deal with about 100-125 cell phones in my job. 
You are crazy if you dont KNOW they are already selling everything you do in and on your cell device.

Yea, still waiting for you to show that this is a 4th amendment violation....

It should be common knowledge that the state gathers your data, hell it should have been systematic arrests and prosecutions and impeachments throughout the govt after the Snowden revolutions concerning domestic spying, but were not talking about the state doing this. The video is specifically on the companys decisions to do this. This is NOT a 4th amendment issue. Period. 

[DKW 86 7,431]

1 hour ago, AUGunsmith said:

This is NOT a 4th amendment issue. Period. 

I disagree. What is stopping the govt from buying a fake business license and buyingball thatvdata from Apple or Verizon, or Samasung, or whomever? Nothing. 

[AUGunsmith 666]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

I disagree. What is stopping the govt from buying a fake business license and buyingball thatvdata from Apple or Verizon, or Samasung, or whomever? Nothing. 

Try can buy it without the business. Still not an issue. You are voluntarily allowing apple, Verizon, whoever to collect and sell the data. If the state wants to buy it that isn't an issue.  It does not constitute a search. There is plenty of case law and opinion pieces available with a quick Google search. 

 

The issue isn't that the govt is buying it, the issue is that it exists at all. People shouldn't be using these services which are arguably more intrusive than a search of your house. 

People continue to use services like Facebook and tiktok and buy phones which willingly admit to grabbing all your personal info. 

As long as people don't care, nothing will change 

 

[DKW 86 7,431]

Is it right, moral. ethical? Hell no
Is it legal? Yes.

[AUGunsmith 666]

48 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Is it right, moral. ethical? Hell no
Is it legal? Yes.

How can you argue it isn't moral or ethical? People agree to it. No one is forced. 

[DKW 86 7,431]

6 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

How can you argue it isn't moral or ethical? People agree to it. No one is forced. 

Because people agree to bad things all the time. 

[AU9377 4,977]

16 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

Not actually a 4th amendment violation since it isn't the govt doing the searching. 

The state backed down from it's court attempts to force apple to unlock. 

This is why the state pays big money for people who figure out workarounds to phone encryption

That is true.  It becomes a 4th Amendment issue when the govt gets involved.  The only reason they backed down was that the found a back door to get into the devices.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:07 AM, DKW 86 said:

Do you actually believe that? Apple and all the others sell our meta dat and searches and etc all the time. 

Google does because it's their business model.  They give you all their stuff for free:  Android, Gmail, Google Photos, Google Drive, Google Docs.  That's because you aren't their customer.  Their customers are data miners, companies, advertisers and marketing firms.  You are the product.

Apple's business model is the 180 degree opposite.  They make goods - hardware mostly, but also software through the App Store, and subscriptions.  Those are their products.  You are their customer.  It doesn't benefit their business model at all to sell your data to other people so they can market to you or profile you.  It benefits them to make you happy so you'll buy their stuff and to only use the information you opt in to share to make those products better.

So, yes.  I do actually believe that. 

[DKW 86 7,431]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Google does because it's their business model.  They give you all their stuff for free:  Android, Gmail, Google Photos, Google Drive, Google Docs.  That's because you aren't their customer.  Their customers are data miners, companies, advertisers and marketing firms.  You are the product.

Apple's business model is the 180 degree opposite.  They make goods - hardware mostly, but also software through the App Store, and subscriptions.  Those are their products.  You are their customer.  It doesn't benefit their business model at all to sell your data to other people so they can market to you or profile you.  It benefits them to make you happy so you'll buy their stuff and to only use the information you opt in to share to make those products better.

So, yes.  I do actually believe that. 

All that would work perfectly as long as, the User never uses Siri, ever buys an APP, never turns on their locations, never uses Maps, etc, etc, etc.

[AUGunsmith 666]

On 8/28/2021 at 12:55 AM, AU9377 said:

That is true.  It becomes a 4th Amendment issue when the govt gets involved.  The only reason they backed down was that the found a back door to get into the devices.

They backed down to stop case law. The same reason they back down with the multi in part reviecer on ARs being an issue with not only felons in possession, but also what constitutes an action. 

There is a decent chance if losing so why risk it when the risk are greater than the reward. 

 

Again case law says not a 4a issue. Either back up your claim or GTFO. 

On 8/28/2021 at 12:55 AM, AU9377 said:

 

 

[AU9377 4,977]

7 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

They backed down to stop case law. The same reason they back down with the multi in part reviecer on ARs being an issue with not only felons in possession, but also what constitutes an action. 

There is a decent chance if losing so why risk it when the risk are greater than the reward. 

 

Again case law says not a 4a issue. Either back up your claim or GTFO. 

 

Did I not just agree that it wasn't a 4th amendment issue?  It could have become one, but it didn't.  Every side of any issue has to be aware of the impact of appealing a case that isn't the best in terms of the facts to apply to their particular cause.

[AU9377 4,977]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Google does because it's their business model.  They give you all their stuff for free:  Android, Gmail, Google Photos, Google Drive, Google Docs.  That's because you aren't their customer.  Their customers are data miners, companies, advertisers and marketing firms.  You are the product.

Apple's business model is the 180 degree opposite.  They make goods - hardware mostly, but also software through the App Store, and subscriptions.  Those are their products.  You are their customer.  It doesn't benefit their business model at all to sell your data to other people so they can market to you or profile you.  It benefits them to make you happy so you'll buy their stuff and to only use the information you opt in to share to make those products better.

So, yes.  I do actually believe that. 

Apple does sell information, but they do at least provide the user with the ability to turn most things off or opt out on their devices.  Granted, most don't.  On the latest models, Apple makes it even more confusing, requiring opt outs at multiple points.  I went to Youtube and followed a couple of really well versed Apple techs and finally opted out of most things, but i'm certain there are many other avenues by which a portion of my data is still harvested and sold.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

All that would work perfectly as long as, the User never uses Siri, ever buys an APP, never turns on their locations, never uses Maps, etc, etc, etc.

But you’re still assuming something you’ve yet to prove - that Apple is selling your info to third parties, or even why it would even make logical sense for them to do so. Especially given their very public stance on privacy. If this were happening there’s no way one of these companies or an former employee thereof wouldn’t blow the whistle on it. And that doesn’t even touch on how many companies have complained about Apple’s restrictive privacy policies that deny them info they are accustomed to getting on Android and other platforms. 
 

While it’s true that in *some* third party apps you might grant permissions for *some* app usage data and thus that third party would have that info on you. But that’s a far cry from saying Apple is gathering tons of data on you and selling to just like Google. 

[DKW 86 7,431]

Their public stance on privacy is just more meaningless words. We went thru this back on the 5C the couple used while they shot up California. The FBI was in that phone in 24 hours. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/19/apple-iphones-can-be-hacked-even-if-the-user-never-clicks-a-link-amnesty-international-says.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/19/apple-iphone-nso/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2021/07/17/apple-iphone-12-pro-max-warning-wifi-hack-zero-click-exploit-new-iphone-ios-upgrade/

https://www.wired.com/story/apple-execs-chose-to-keep-hack-of-128-million-iphones-quiet/

https://www.vox.com/recode/22583617/apple-iphones-pegasus-nso-hacks

https://samcurry.net/hacking-apple/

Apple products are no more safe than any other, no matter how you want to fetishize it.

Apple and Data: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/01/apples-hypocritical-defense-data-privacy/581680/

If Apple really cared about personal data, the company could take any number of actions to keep privacy violators off its platforms and away from its customers. Until it does, it’s time to stop letting Apple off the hook as a more moral company than Google or Facebook. In fact, failing to take action while grandstanding about the urgency of doing so might make it even worse.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/04/17/apple-make-simpler-download-your-privacy-data-year/521786002/

As for Apple, our iPhones gather up a lot of information, too. The GPS describes where we are, when we ask Siri for directions or a recipe, that request goes to Apple. Apple says it doesn't share that info with outside companies. It does, however, allow advertisers to target users based on their history in the App Store and News app. 

 

The company does admit that it freely collects information about what music we listen to, what movies, books and apps we download, which is "aggregated" and used to help Apple make recommendations. Apple says it doesn't share this information with outside companies, either and notes that it doesn't know the identity of the user. 

It does sell ads, but on a much smaller scale, based on your history in its News app and App Store. 

What Apple won’t do, at least for now, is make it easy for you to get your data so you can check out what exactly Apple has held onto. Facebook and Google offer this service, via a download request that can take a few hours to generate. Then you get an email link to download it yourself and get shocked at just how much the social network and search giant has held onto.

Apple hides the data request deep inside the privacy section of the website. To get there, it’s four clicks from the main page and buried in the 11th subhead on the page. 

 

(I put in the data request Monday just after 11 a.m. Some 22 hours later Tuesday, we heard back from Apple, saying we could get the report once we replied with our full name, Apple ID, email address, street address, phone number and serial number of an Apple product.)

Wednesday morning, we received word back that the request had been approved, and that the data download would be forthcoming. We're still awaiting arrival. 

Apple does sell ads

Meanwhile, Apple also does sells ads as well, on a far smaller scale. These appear in the News app and App Store, based on your interests. By default, on the iPhone you’ve allowed Apple to serve you ads based on what it thinks are your interests. 

"To ensure ads are relevant, Apple’s advertising platform creates groups of people, called segments, who share similar characteristics and uses these groups for delivering targeted ads," the policy reads.

 

[DKW 86 7,431]