Kinda stunning

[Didba 5,281]

31 minutes ago, Son of A Tiger said:

But you didn't answer my question.

Why would I and why should I? I could see your point in asking me that question if I was actively defending Hamas in this thread but I am not.

The answer being yes, no or I don't know, doesn't change anything I have said in this thread. Hamas committing war crimes against Israeli civilians is atrocious.

Israel retaliating with more war crimes against Palestinians civilians is also horrible.

There is no argument or discussion to win here. Two wrongs don't make a right, your question's whole point was basically "Israel's war crimes aren't as bad because they aren't chopping the heads off of babies." 

Its flawed logic at best, at worst its willfully being okay with war crimes being committed against Palestinian children because their side are bad guys and I don't think you are willfully being okay with it. I think you just see me having a different opinion and want to try and contradict it when my point has been war crimes are bad no matter who commits them, I condemn any side who willingly commits them.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Didba

[Son of A Tiger 576]

13 minutes ago, Didba said:

Why would I and why should I? I could see your point in asking me that question if I was actively defending Hamas in this thread but I am not.

The answer being yes, no or I don't know, doesn't change anything I have said in this thread. Hamas committing war crimes against Israeli civilians is atrocious.

Israel retaliating with more war crimes against Palestinians civilians is also horrible.

There is no argument or discussion to win here. Two wrongs don't make a right, your question's whole point was basically "Israel's war crimes aren't as bad because they aren't chopping the heads off of babies." 

Its flawed logic at best, at worst its willfully being okay with war crimes being committed against Palestinian children because their side are bad guys and I don't think you are willfully being okay with it. I think you just see me having a different opinion and want to try and contradict it when my point has been war crimes are bad no matter who commits them, I condemn any side who willingly commits them.

Thanks. We may not be in total agreement but I think we are at least on the same page. One more question ........what do you think Israel is justified in doing right now?

Edited October 12, 2023 by Son of A Tiger

[Didba 5,281]

10 minutes ago, Son of A Tiger said:

Thanks. We may not be in total agreement but I think we are at least on the same page. One more question ........what do you think Israel is justified in doing right now?

I appreciate this measured response, as for your question:

Taking down Hamas like the US took down Bin Laden hopefully with less torturing of prisoners. Though if I had to pick the lesser of two evils for Israel to eradicate Hamas, I'd pick the war crimes against Hamas prisoners over war crimes against Palestinian civvies. Disgusting to even say it.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Didba

[auburnatl1 5,253]

8 minutes ago, Didba said:

I appreciate this measured response, as for your question:

Taking down Hamas like the US took down Bin Laden hopefully with less torturing of prisoners. Though if I had to pick the lesser of two evils for Israel to eradicate Hamas, I'd pick the war crimes against Hamas prisoners over war crimes against Palestinian civvies. Disgusting to even say it.

Hamas isn’t a country, it’s an alpha criminal cult of nut jobs. Blended into an civilian populace of millions. It’s not a war, it’s a man hunt with tanks. Bombs may get many of them, but the massive collateral casualties will just create even more cult members avenging the deaths of family and friends. 2 years from now the problem will be worse. 

I absolutely support Israel and support trying to crush Hamas because… you simply have to. But in terms of actually solving anything. No.  Except maybe forcing them to change their name.

[Didba 5,281]

29 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Hamas isn’t a country, it’s an alpha criminal cult of nut jobs. Blended into an civilian populace of millions. It’s not a war, it’s a man hunt with tanks. Bombs may get many of them, but the massive collateral casualties will just create even more cult members avenging the deaths of family and friends. 2 years from now the problem will be worse. 

I absolutely support Israel and support trying to crush Hamas because… you simply have to. But in terms of actually solving anything. No.  Except maybe forcing them to change their name.

The answer was “in a perfect world” kinda thing. I agree 100%. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Didba

[DKW 86 7,481]

9 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Hamas, yes. All Palestinians are not Hamas. By denying food to the children of Gaza, Israel doesn’t appear to be making that distinction:

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group.

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.

“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/

Well, the Palestinians cant get anyone to give them work permits, food, water. Israel was supplying power and water when Egypt refused to. They were rewarded with an act of war. That is all they are ever going to get with these people. The Palestinians do not want peace. 

[TexasTiger 13,136]

1 minute ago, DKW 86 said:

Well, the Palestinians cant get anyone to give them work permits, food, water. Israel was supplying power and water when Egypt refused to. They were rewarded with an act of war. That is all they are ever going to get with these people. The Palestinians do not want peace. 

Arguably, neither side makes it a priority.

[DKW 86 7,481]

13 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Arguably, neither side makes it a priority.

Quit firing rockets at civilians and find out.

[TexasTiger 13,136]

21 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Quit firing rockets at civilians and find out.

I’m mostly referring to continually building settlements in the West Bank which rejected Hamas for Fatah. Israel goes out of its way to provoke the Palestinians in the West Bank.

[DKW 86 7,481]

22 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I’m mostly referring to continually building settlements in the West Bank which rejected Hamas for Fatah. Israel goes out of its way to provoke the Palestinians in the West Bank.

They lost the West Bank 50+ years ago in a war they started and lost badly.

Israel has a population density of 395/sq-km. That makes Israel the third most population dense nation in the ME. Israel's population is growing. What would you have them do? Take even more land from their neighboring states?

https://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=21000&r=me&l=en

Isarel is outnumbered 444M to 8M in the ME. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by DKW 86

[auburnatl1 5,253]

15 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I’m mostly referring to continually building settlements in the West Bank which rejected Hamas for Fatah. Israel goes out of its way to provoke the Palestinians in the West Bank.

A lots happen since Oslo but it’s a fair point. The growing Israeli issue with the West Bank is its proximity to Jerusalem. 

If it were attacked I can’t imagine.  200 end of times posts.

[Didba 5,281]

9 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Well, the Palestinians cant get anyone to give them work permits, food, water. Israel was supplying power and water when Egypt refused to. They were rewarded with an act of war. That is all they are ever going to get with these people. The Palestinians do not want peace. 

Hamas doesn’t want peace. I’m pretty sure there are plenty of non-Hamas Palestinians that want peace. 

[TexasTiger 13,136]

8 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

They lost the West Bank 50+ years ago in a war they started and lost badly.

Israel has a population density of 395/sq-km. That makes Israel the third most population dense nation in the ME. Israel's population is growing. What would you have them do? Take even more land from their neighboring states?

https://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=21000&r=me&l=en

Isarel is outnumbered 444M to 8M in the ME. 

Gaza has 5,500 people per sq KM. Their population is growing. What would you have then do? Take land from Israel?

We defeated Germany and Japan in WWII. We didn’t keep them because we wanted to forge a lasting peace. Arabs badly miscalculated in their wars with Israel and lost. Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt and has peace with them. The Palestinian Authority has largely tried to play by Israeli rules and Israel sends the message it doesn’t matter. 

[Didba 5,281]

35 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Gaza has 5,500 people per sq KM. Their population is growing. What would you have then do? Take land from Israel?

We defeated Germany and Japan in WWII. We didn’t keep them because we wanted to forge a lasting peace. Arabs badly miscalculated in their wars with Israel and lost. Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt and has peace with them. The Palestinian Authority has largely tried to play by Israeli rules and Israel sends the message it doesn’t matter. 

There is a difference in occupation/reconstruction and outright capitulation at all costs.

it seems capitulation is the choice. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Didba

[CoffeeTiger 5,228]

9 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

They lost the West Bank 50+ years ago in a war they started and lost badly.

Israel has a population density of 395/sq-km. That makes Israel the third most population dense nation in the ME. Israel's population is growing. What would you have them do? Take even more land from their neighboring states?

https://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=21000&r=me&l=en

Isarel is outnumbered 444M to 8M in the ME. 

I'd expect Israel to not break International law and violate what little sovereignty the Palestinians have. 

 

Nobody can seriously argue that Israel itself wants a lasting peace when it is continually and willingly settling and occupying more and more land that is supposed to be in Palestinian control. 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by CoffeeTiger

[SaltyTiger 7,908]

9 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

200 end of times posts.

High water alarm is already blaring in several places.

[CoffeeTiger 5,228]

Regardless of what wrongs Israel has committed, I want to be also clear that Hamas is a terrorist organization and needs to be eliminated with it's leadership either being killed or captured to stand trial for war crimes. 

The organization can't be allowed to run the Gaza strip anymore. 

 

This is where things get very, very complicated. A large portion of the population of the Gaza strip are young children and teens and women. (CIA claims 40% of Gaza's population is under the age of 14). Innocent parties to Hama's atrocities, yet they will increasingly be made to suffer and die if Israel continues to deny basic services like power, water, food and medicine to the city. 

A siege of the city while understandable to an extent, also is creating a vast humanitarian disaster. 

[homersapien 11,513]

23 hours ago, Didba said:

Nope. Hence, the peaceful resolution statement in my previous reply. The reason I cannot do as you say in your first paragraph is because Hamas does not represent all Palestinians.

As I said in my original post:

One can condemn the history of apartheid oppression and war crimes on the part of Israeli government/military while also condemning Hamas terrorism

Let's face it, we've got a lot of posters on this forumn that can only think in Manichean style. 

They can't recognize that both sides of a conflict may have valid concerns or that both sides bear a share of the responsibility. 

This is no way excuses Hamas for their brutality (which will ultimately be counter-productive to their interests). As always, the tragedy lies in the loss of innocent lives.

[homersapien 11,513]

18 hours ago, Son of A Tiger said:

Do you know of any occasion where Israel military (or any country's military) has broken into innocent civilian homes before a conflict was even going on and killed the occupants and even decapitated babies? 

Not to split hairs, but Americans did that at least occasionally in Viet Nam. 

One could argue it happens in every war.  One could also argue that bombing of civilians qualifies as equivalent barbarity.

But clearly - and to your point - Hamas is incorporating such brutality as a (terrorist) strategy. As is Russia in Ukraine.

One could argue the U.S. had such a strategy when fire bombing Japan.

War is hell.

 

[auburnatl1 5,253]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Let's face it, we've got a lot of posters on this forumn that can only think in Manichean style. 

They can't recognize that both sides of a conflict may have valid concerns or that both sides bear a share of the responsibility. 

This is no way excuses Hamas for their brutality (which will ultimately be counter-productive to their interests). As always, the tragedy lies in the loss of innocent lives.

That was completely true last Fri. However, to be clear - Hamas and the overall Palestinians are different… for the most part. But not completely.

Saturday changed pretty much everything. And the 2 sides to every argument stuff may need awhile before many people want to hear it again.

[homersapien 11,513]

11 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

They lost the West Bank 50+ years ago in a war they started and lost badly.

Israel has a population density of 395/sq-km. That makes Israel the third most population dense nation in the ME. Israel's population is growing. What would you have them do? Take even more land from their neighboring states?

https://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=21000&r=me&l=en

Isarel is outnumbered 444M to 8M in the ME. 

Yeah, they need "lebensraum". 

[homersapien 11,513]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Regardless of what wrongs Israel has committed, I want to be also clear that Hamas is a terrorist organization and needs to be eliminated with it's leadership either being killed or captured to stand trial for war crimes. 

The organization can't be allowed to run the Gaza strip anymore. 

 

This is where things get very, very complicated. A large portion of the population of the Gaza strip are young children and teens and women. (CIA claims 40% of Gaza's population is under the age of 14). Innocent parties to Hama's atrocities, yet they will increasingly be made to suffer and die if Israel continues to deny basic services like power, water, food and medicine to the city. 

A siege of the city while understandable to an extent, also is creating a vast humanitarian disaster. 

It's also creating the Hamas of the future.

[homersapien 11,513]

17 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

That was completely true last Fri. However, to be clear - Hamas and the overall Palestinians are different… for the most part. But not completely.

Saturday changed pretty much everything. And the 2 sides to every argument stuff may need awhile before many people want to hear it again.

Like I said, Hamas actions are counter productive to Palestinian interests.

[auburnatl1 5,253]

23 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Yeah, they need "lebensraum". 

 

18 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Like I said, Hamas actions are counter productive to Palestinian interests.

I do think you’re applying a human but also western mindset. Diplomacy, give and take, ect.  The Quran ‘s unique flaw is that it has specific passages that can be  (mis) interpreted as  supporting hamas’s actions to date. In extremists mind they have the moral obligation and high ground. Every  Israeli must be expelled or killed. Especially regarding Jerusalem. Compromise on this is a sin. Unless Muslims willingly choose a secular gov - compromise is impossible.

Edited October 12, 2023 by auburnatl1

[homersapien 11,513]

17 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

 

I do think you’re applying a human but also western mindset. Diplomacy, give and take, ect.  The Quran ‘s unique flaw is that it has specific passages that can be  (mis) interpreted as  supporting hamas’s actions to date. In their mind they have the moral obligation and high ground. Every  Israeli must be expelled or killed. Especially regarding Jerusalem. Compromise on this is a sin. Unless Muslims willingly choose a secular gov - compromise is impossible.

I am certainly applying secular reasoning as opposed to a religious perspective.  IMO - and perhaps to your point - religion is at the core of this conflict (as is so often the case).

Not sure if that's "western" or not.  I am neither a philosopher or political scientist.

Nor am I sure it's fair to lay Hamas motivations at the foot of the Quran. There's been lots of evil done using the Bible as excuse also. (I am not a theologian either. )

But if the argument is that religion - in general -  is a very common justification for violence among "tribes",  I am all in.

Edited October 12, 2023 by homersapien