I defy you to defend this.

[otterinbham 0]

A true conservative is somebody who loves both our country and our constitution. For one cannot exist without the other. Here's what one writer, with indisputable conservative credentials has to say about the latest debacle of the current administration:

By Andrew Sullivan, Conservative Columnist.

"Jose Padilla is a U.S. citizen. He was detained without formal charges for almost four years and turned into a mental patient. The original charges against him appear nowhere in his current criminal prosecution. They were fabrications or delusions or fantasies. Money quote:

The strong public accusations made during his military detention — about the dirty bomb, Al Qaeda connections and supposed plans to set off natural gas explosions in apartment buildings — appear nowhere in the indictment against him. The indictment does not allege any specific violent plot against America. Mr. Padilla is portrayed in the indictment as the recruit of a 'North American terror support cell' that sent money, goods and recruits abroad to assist 'global jihad' in general, with a special interest in Bosnia and Chechnya. Mr. Padilla, the indictment asserts, traveled overseas 'to participate in violent jihad' and filled out an application for a mujahedin training camp in Afghanistan.

Michael Caruso, a public defender for Mr. Padilla, pleaded 'absolutely not guilty' for him to charges of conspiracy and of providing material support to terrorists.

Neither you nor I know what Padilla was up to, and it will now be up to a court to decide. But the effect of the brutal incarceration of Padilla may now make it impossible to convict him on any grounds. Like al-Qahtani, the torture and abuse to which he has been subject seem to have broken his mind:

"During questioning, he often exhibits facial tics, unusual eye movements and contortions of his body," Mr. Patel said. "The contortions are particularly poignant since he is usually manacled and bound by a belly chain when he has meetings with counsel."

Padilla, by all accounts, was a completely non-violent and docile prisoner every day of his incarceration. And yet they put him in body-manacles for four years, complete isolation and darkness, and even fitted him with night-goggles for a dental operation. They dehumanized him into a piece of furniture. The level of pure sadism and paranoia in his treatment is worthy of a military dictatorship, not a democracy. Remember also the description of another detainee, al-Qahtani, after detention by the Bush administration:

At the end of months of sleep deprivation and other forms of torture, Qahtani, according to an FBI letter, "was evidencing behavior consistent with extreme psychological trauma (talking to non existent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a cell covered with a sheet for hours on end)."

Now remember the definition of torture: "severe mental or physical pain or suffering." Four years of blindness and isolation? Post-traumatic stress disorder? Involuntary twitching and body contortion? You think that doesn't amount to prolonged and severe mental suffering?

This, remember, is an American citizen, who was charged with grievous crimes even the government has now dropped for lack of any evidence. Locked away for four years in solitary confinement, and not even allowed to walk down a hallway without night-goggles, in order to keep him disoriented. Padilla may not be successfully prosecuted because his treatment means evidence from his own testimony is too tainted by torture to be admitted in court. (Qahtani has also retracted everything he was tortured to say.) This is the America Bush has created: lawless, brutal, inhumane, and incompetent. We have no evidence that any of this has made you safer. But it has struck at the very heart of the liberty this country was founded to protect and defend."

[TexasTiger 13,017]

In the false name of "security" and "patriotism", Bushco has done immeasurable harm to our nation's integrity as a nation conceived in "liberty."

A true conservative is somebody who loves both our country and our constitution. For one cannot exist without the other. Here's what one writer, with indisputable conservative credentials has to say about the latest debacle of the current administration:

By Andrew Sullivan, Conservative Columnist.

"Jose Padilla is a U.S. citizen. He was detained without formal charges for almost four years and turned into a mental patient. The original charges against him appear nowhere in his current criminal prosecution. They were fabrications or delusions or fantasies. Money quote:

The strong public accusations made during his military detention — about the dirty bomb, Al Qaeda connections and supposed plans to set off natural gas explosions in apartment buildings — appear nowhere in the indictment against him. The indictment does not allege any specific violent plot against America. Mr. Padilla is portrayed in the indictment as the recruit of a 'North American terror support cell' that sent money, goods and recruits abroad to assist 'global jihad' in general, with a special interest in Bosnia and Chechnya. Mr. Padilla, the indictment asserts, traveled overseas 'to participate in violent jihad' and filled out an application for a mujahedin training camp in Afghanistan.

Michael Caruso, a public defender for Mr. Padilla, pleaded 'absolutely not guilty' for him to charges of conspiracy and of providing material support to terrorists.

Neither you nor I know what Padilla was up to, and it will now be up to a court to decide. But the effect of the brutal incarceration of Padilla may now make it impossible to convict him on any grounds. Like al-Qahtani, the torture and abuse to which he has been subject seem to have broken his mind:

"During questioning, he often exhibits facial tics, unusual eye movements and contortions of his body," Mr. Patel said. "The contortions are particularly poignant since he is usually manacled and bound by a belly chain when he has meetings with counsel."

Padilla, by all accounts, was a completely non-violent and docile prisoner every day of his incarceration. And yet they put him in body-manacles for four years, complete isolation and darkness, and even fitted him with night-goggles for a dental operation. They dehumanized him into a piece of furniture. The level of pure sadism and paranoia in his treatment is worthy of a military dictatorship, not a democracy. Remember also the description of another detainee, al-Qahtani, after detention by the Bush administration:

At the end of months of sleep deprivation and other forms of torture, Qahtani, according to an FBI letter, "was evidencing behavior consistent with extreme psychological trauma (talking to non existent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a cell covered with a sheet for hours on end)."

Now remember the definition of torture: "severe mental or physical pain or suffering." Four years of blindness and isolation? Post-traumatic stress disorder? Involuntary twitching and body contortion? You think that doesn't amount to prolonged and severe mental suffering?

This, remember, is an American citizen, who was charged with grievous crimes even the government has now dropped for lack of any evidence. Locked away for four years in solitary confinement, and not even allowed to walk down a hallway without night-goggles, in order to keep him disoriented. Padilla may not be successfully prosecuted because his treatment means evidence from his own testimony is too tainted by torture to be admitted in court. (Qahtani has also retracted everything he was tortured to say.) This is the America Bush has created: lawless, brutal, inhumane, and incompetent. We have no evidence that any of this has made you safer. But it has struck at the very heart of the liberty this country was founded to protect and defend."

[AURaptor 1,126]

Immeasureable harm? British officials shot a man dead in a subway, thinking he was a terrorist. Simple case of mistaken identity and a man acting strangely when cops were looking for strange behavior.

I don't see such gnashing of teeth and wild accusations over that death.

Neither you nor I know what Padilla was up to,..

[otterinbham 0]

Immeasureable harm? British officials shot a man dead in a subway, thinking he was a terrorist. Simple case of mistaken identity and a man acting strangely when cops were looking for strange behavior.

I don't see such gnashing of teeth and wild accusations over that death.

Neither you nor I know what Padilla was up to,..

The two simply cannot be compared, and you know it. One was the snap decision of a British policeman in an attempt to save human life, and the other is a deliberate long-term program of torture that apparently turned up no evidence whatsoever and actually interfered with the suspect's criminal prosecution. Last time I read, we were supposed to be fighting a war for the preservation of Western Civilization. That's supposed to include rule of law and constitutional rights.

[AURaptor 1,126]

Last time I read, we were supposed to be fighting a war for the preservation of Western Civilization. That's supposed to include rule of law and constitutional rights.

Neither of us knows what Padilla has done.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Last time I read, we were supposed to be fighting a war for the preservation of Western Civilization. That's supposed to include rule of law and constitutional rights.

Neither of us knows what Padilla has done.

But we know he has not been convicted.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Last time I read, we were supposed to be fighting a war for the preservation of Western Civilization. That's supposed to include rule of law and constitutional rights.

Neither of us knows what Padilla has done.

Are you really this trusting?

[AURaptor 1,126]

"During questioning, he often exhibits facial tics, unusual eye movements and contortions of his body," Mr. Patel said. "The contortions are particularly poignant since he is usually manacled and bound by a belly chain when he has meetings with counsel."

Just who the heck is Mr Patel ? He's not identified anywhere in the piece. We're suppose to take these assessments at face value ? I'm skeptical of the whole claim , myself. More bogus 'torture' stories.

[Tigermike 3,053]

A true conservative is somebody who loves both our country and our constitution. For one cannot exist without the other. Here's what one writer, with indisputable conservative credentials has to say about the latest debacle of the current administration:

By Andrew Sullivan, Conservative Columnist.

"Jose Padilla is a U.S. citizen. He was detained without formal charges for almost four years and turned into a mental patient. The original charges against him appear nowhere in his current criminal prosecution. They were fabrications or delusions or fantasies. Money quote:

The strong public accusations made during his military detention — about the dirty bomb, Al Qaeda connections and supposed plans to set off natural gas explosions in apartment buildings — appear nowhere in the indictment against him. The indictment does not allege any specific violent plot against America. Mr. Padilla is portrayed in the indictment as the recruit of a 'North American terror support cell' that sent money, goods and recruits abroad to assist 'global jihad' in general, with a special interest in Bosnia and Chechnya. Mr. Padilla, the indictment asserts, traveled overseas 'to participate in violent jihad' and filled out an application for a mujahedin training camp in Afghanistan.

Michael Caruso, a public defender for Mr. Padilla, pleaded 'absolutely not guilty' for him to charges of conspiracy and of providing material support to terrorists.

Neither you nor I know what Padilla was up to, and it will now be up to a court to decide. But the effect of the brutal incarceration of Padilla may now make it impossible to convict him on any grounds. Like al-Qahtani, the torture and abuse to which he has been subject seem to have broken his mind:

"During questioning, he often exhibits facial tics, unusual eye movements and contortions of his body," Mr. Patel said. "The contortions are particularly poignant since he is usually manacled and bound by a belly chain when he has meetings with counsel."

Padilla, by all accounts, was a completely non-violent and docile prisoner every day of his incarceration. And yet they put him in body-manacles for four years, complete isolation and darkness, and even fitted him with night-goggles for a dental operation. They dehumanized him into a piece of furniture. The level of pure sadism and paranoia in his treatment is worthy of a military dictatorship, not a democracy. Remember also the description of another detainee, al-Qahtani, after detention by the Bush administration:

At the end of months of sleep deprivation and other forms of torture, Qahtani, according to an FBI letter, "was evidencing behavior consistent with extreme psychological trauma (talking to non existent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a cell covered with a sheet for hours on end)."

Now remember the definition of torture: "severe mental or physical pain or suffering." Four years of blindness and isolation? Post-traumatic stress disorder? Involuntary twitching and body contortion? You think that doesn't amount to prolonged and severe mental suffering?

This, remember, is an American citizen, who was charged with grievous crimes even the government has now dropped for lack of any evidence. Locked away for four years in solitary confinement, and not even allowed to walk down a hallway without night-goggles, in order to keep him disoriented. Padilla may not be successfully prosecuted because his treatment means evidence from his own testimony is too tainted by torture to be admitted in court. (Qahtani has also retracted everything he was tortured to say.) This is the America Bush has created: lawless, brutal, inhumane, and incompetent. We have no evidence that any of this has made you safer. But it has struck at the very heart of the liberty this country was founded to protect and defend."

Got a link for that?

[CCTAU 3,345]

For every one of your so-called atrocities, I can give you almost 300 million people who have had no problems at all. Just open a phone book.

One tragedy does not a holocaust make.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Guys like you and Raptor have to have it happen to you before you get it.

[otterinbham 0]

For every one of your so-called atrocities, I can give you almost 300 million people who have had no problems at all. Just open a phone book.

One tragedy does not a holocaust make.

Actually. Most Americans are appalled by torture. It has never been policy in the American military or American intelligence. We have fought for more desperate conflicts where it was never used. In fact, ask an intelligence officer, and he'll be the first to tell you that torture is a terrible way to get useful information. What you get is somebody who will tell you whatever he thinks you want to know just so he can get a few moments of respite.

What I don't understand is your apparent blindness to the immorality of it.

[Ranger12 46]

Torture never bothered me any.

[AURaptor 1,126]

Guys like you and Raptor have to have it happen to you before you get it.

Yeah, if I converted to Islam, traveled over seas for training and did 1/2 the things Padilla did, then maybe I'd expect to have it happen to me. But you're right I don't get it. I don't get the love fest for this guy.

Did you read the 'article' ? From the post above, can you answer these questions ? Who is Mr Patel, and how do we know the claims are verified ? We know there were lies told about the treatment of prisoners in Gitmo, many which have quietly been debunked.

[DKW 86 7,440]

Just a legal point here. And I like Andrew Sulivan very much and wont question his reporting, BUT just because THIS indictment doesnt have a terrorism charge in it for the dirty bomb has abslolutely no correlation as to whether they bring further charges on him at a later date, or whether it would compromise an ongoing investigation etc.

I understand the accusation of Pailla's health etc. It is detestable. BUT, legally, this is a lone, stand alone indictment that could have absolutely nothing to do with a later indictment/charges. In the same vein, you can indict a ham sandwich for anything. So I find it puzzling that he is not indicted for the dirty bomb charges. Either way, whether lack of evidence or cleared of the charges, They could come right back and indict him on those charges for a later trial, or maybe he was cleared of the charges or plead out to them or even informed on co-conspirators and got the charges dropped. NONE of those options is addressed here.

[otterinbham 0]

Just a legal point here. And I like Andrew Sulivan very much and wont question his reporting, BUT just because THIS indictment doesnt have a terrorism charge in it for the dirty bomb has abslolutely no correlation as to whether they bring further charges on him at a later date, or whether it would compromise an ongoing investigation etc.

I understand the accusation of Pailla's health etc. It is detestable. BUT, legally, this is a lone, stand alone indictment that could have absolutely nothing to do with a later indictment/charges. In the same vein, you can indict a ham sandwich for anything. So I find it puzzling that he is not indicted for the dirty bomb charges. Either way, whether lack of evidence or cleared of the charges, They could come right back and indict him on those charges for a later trial, or maybe he was cleared of the charges or plead out to them or even informed on co-conspirators and got the charges dropped. NONE of those options is addressed here.

I think that's fair. Notice I'm not questioning whether or not he was up to no good. But our constitution is explicit on this. My legal friends on this board can better limn Habeas Corpus than I ever could, but this is a clear cut violation of it. Sure, one could always argue that, under the auspices of the Bill of Rights, we are at war. But the fact that it has taken four years to produce an indictment, with evidence secure under highly dubious circumstances, undermines every single thing we're fighting for.

Essentially, you're either for barbarism or you're not. If you believe torture is okay, then you are as bad our enemy.

[Tiger Al 0]

Essentially, you're either for barbarism or you're not. If you believe torture is okay, then you are as bad our enemy.

Nietzsche wrote in Beyond Good and Evil, "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also

looks into you."

Many of us have been outraged by this and things like it for a while. That our government would act in such a manner is as appalling as the pride that many feel because it does it, including some on this board. Padilla is, if nothing else, an American citizen and that what has been done to him is staunchly defended sickens Americans. This isn't America or its values.

[channonc 466]

MSNBC story on Padilla

[otterinbham 0]

Yep. I cannot fathom how anybody can support this.

I am conservative (Heck, I border on libertarian). I typically vote Republican. But how anybody can spit on the legacy of Washington, Jefferson, Madison, et al and claim to support this country is absolutely sickening.

[Jenny AU-92 0]

Devil's advocate here: These cases all hinge on national security issues, right? And part of the problems we have been seeing pop up with regards to prosecuting these cases in civilian courts is the fact that much of the information is classified. It has to be difficult to determine when to release information in order to pursue a prosecution and when to keep such information confidential in order to prevent the loss of a source or an informant or to prevent tipping your hand to those you are still going after. Maybe they have something on Padilla regarding the whole dirty bomb thing - maybe they are still in the process of tracing the means of obtaining the materials he was planning to use. Maybe prosecuting him would blow an opportunity to get guys who are much worse and much more dangerous than this stupid idiot. He is one link in a chain - the one dumb enough to get caught. These people never work alone. If trampling on his civil liberties allows us to stop a bigger network from committing a real terror act, then I am kind of okay with that. I have been and continue to remain unmoved by the plight of those who intend to hurt this country by swearing allegiance to a foreign power or a radical ideology. He might technically be an American citizen, but when he received funding and training from a terrorist group, he effectively denied the protections of that citizenship as far as I am concerned. You can't plan to commit an overt act of destruction against this country, and then claim your rights as one of its citizens when you get caught. You just can't have it both ways.

[channonc 466]

You can't plan to commit an overt act of destruction against this country, and then claim your rights as one of its citizens when you get caught. You just can't have it both ways.

If this is the case, then why at the very least has he been charged with treason? There is no way you can defend this, not to mention, the term "terrorist group" has never been defined in the code, so what does that mean? If I am a member of a group (any group), can they be just slapped the label of "terrorist group" and suddenly I am denied my rights guaranteed me under the Constitution? This is definitely a slippery slope the Admin is making us walk, and I don't like it.

[otterinbham 0]

Devil's advocate here: These cases all hinge on national security issues, right? And part of the problems we have been seeing pop up with regards to prosecuting these cases in civilian courts is the fact that much of the information is classified. It has to be difficult to determine when to release information in order to pursue a prosecution and when to keep such information confidential in order to prevent the loss of a source or an informant or to prevent tipping your hand to those you are still going after. Maybe they have something on Padilla regarding the whole dirty bomb thing - maybe they are still in the process of tracing the means of obtaining the materials he was planning to use. Maybe prosecuting him would blow an opportunity to get guys who are much worse and much more dangerous than this stupid idiot. He is one link in a chain - the one dumb enough to get caught. These people never work alone. If trampling on his civil liberties allows us to stop a bigger network from committing a real terror act, then I am kind of okay with that. I have been and continue to remain unmoved by the plight of those who intend to hurt this country by swearing allegiance to a foreign power or a radical ideology. He might technically be an American citizen, but when he received funding and training from a terrorist group, he effectively denied the protections of that citizenship as far as I am concerned. You can't plan to commit an overt act of destruction against this country, and then claim your rights as one of its citizens when you get caught. You just can't have it both ways.

A good point, but there is a wealth of legal precedent on how to handle a criminal trial that involves classified information.

Nope. What really happened here is that they didn't have a good case, so they've kept this guy locked away for four years trying desperately to make something stick.

[AURaptor 1,126]

Last time I read, we were supposed to be fighting a war for the preservation of Western Civilization. That's supposed to include rule of law and constitutional rights.

Neither of us knows what Padilla has done.

Are you really this trusting?

In this situation, yes.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Last time I read, we were supposed to be fighting a war for the preservation of Western Civilization. That's supposed to include rule of law and constitutional rights.

Neither of us knows what Padilla has done.

Are you really this trusting?

In this situation, yes.

Why?

[AURaptor 1,126]

Last time I read, we were supposed to be fighting a war for the preservation of Western Civilization. That's supposed to include rule of law and constitutional rights.

Neither of us knows what Padilla has done.

Are you really this trusting?

In this situation, yes.

Why?

Why not?

I've seen too many cry wolf over cases with 'abuse and torture' which were absolutely nothing of the sort. And in the extremely rare incidents where the claims are valid, we've revealed, tried and punished those involved. Specific to this thread, I saw nothing supporting the claims, no one responded to my question as to who this guy was, Mr Patel .

This is a case of national security. It's evident that Padilla wasn't just some average Joe that was nabbed off a sidewalk in Springfield, Middle America and taken away by the FBI. I think much too much is being made about this, to be honest.