Obama says: Christian Right Has 'Hijacked' Faith...

Tigermike · June 28, 2007

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Faith got hijacked, partly because of the so-called leaders of the Christian Right, all too eager to exploit what divides us... At every opportunity, theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve told evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their church... There was even a time when the Christian Coalition determined that its number one legislative priority was tax cuts for the rich. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know what Bible theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re reading, but it doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t jibe with my version.Ã¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬â€Sen. and presidential aspirant Barack Obama

I'm not sure which version of the Bible Obama reads but take a look at the web site for Obama's church.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

TitanTiger · June 28, 2007

Amazing how Christianity has been in such widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years but these guys are among the handful who finally "got it right." :rolleyes:

Forgive me if I put more stock in the early church fathers, many of whom were directly mentored by Apostles, than I do a denomination that studies at the altar of Contemporary Eisegesis.

TexasTiger · June 28, 2007

Amazing how Christianity has been in such widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years but these guys are among the handful who finally "got it right."

Forgive me if I put more stock in the early church fathers, many of whom were directly mentored by Apostles, than I do a denomination that studies at the altar of Contemporary Eisegesis.

Christianity was in widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years?

TitanTiger · June 28, 2007

Amazing how Christianity has been in such widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years but these guys are among the handful who finally "got it right."

Forgive me if I put more stock in the early church fathers, many of whom were directly mentored by Apostles, than I do a denomination that studies at the altar of Contemporary Eisegesis.

Christianity was in widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years?

Yeah, pretty much. Particularly on matters of morality, which is what he's driving at. Hell, up until the 1930s even the Protestant churches were still in agreement with Catholics of all things on the subject of contraception.

I didn't say 100% agreement and I didn't say agreement on every jot and tittle and minutiae

of theology. But on the vast majority of major matters, remarkable agreement. The innovations and novelties in interpretation of the last 100 years or so are just that: novelties and innovations, not solid biblical understanding.

TexasTiger · June 28, 2007

Amazing how Christianity has been in such widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years but these guys are among the handful who finally "got it right."

Forgive me if I put more stock in the early church fathers, many of whom were directly mentored by Apostles, than I do a denomination that studies at the altar of Contemporary Eisegesis.

Christianity was in widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years?

Yeah, pretty much. Particularly on matters of morality, which is what he's driving at. Hell, up until the 1930s even the Protestant churches were still in agreement with Catholics of all things on the subject of contraception.

I didn't say 100% agreement and I didn't say agreement on every jot and tittle and minutiae

of theology. But on the vast majority of major matters, remarkable agreement. The innovations and novelties in interpretation of the last 100 years or so are just that: novelties and innovations, not solid biblical understanding.

I'm a little unclear on your point-- So are you saying that folks like Pat Robertson, Falwell and Dobson are/were closer to the early church fathers than what Obama is talking about?

otterinbham · June 28, 2007

Ahem. This belief that Christianity (Not Christ, but His followers) has followed a morally consistent thread throughout the past 2000 years is a bunch of rubbish. For starters, no other faith, Islam included, has such a tradition of internecine butchery. From the Arian Heresy to the Inquisition to the Thirty Years War, hundreds of thousands combatants and innocents alike have suffered and died because the various sects of Christianity failed to live up to its major tenets as expressed in the Beatitudes.

Further, the Church has not adhered to any consistent doctrine on what we would consider foundational beliefs today. Marriage wasn't even a sacrament of the church until the 12th Century and early term Abortion was not considered a sin until the 1800s chiefly because the fetus was considered to be without soul until the 67th day after conception. Add indulgences, floggings and tortures for minor violations, unspeakable corruption, excessive taxations, enslavement, suppression of learning, etc. etc., and you find that the Church displayed lamentable conduct throughout his history, far worse conduct than was expected of its adherents--Protestants and Catholics alike.

So, yes, I think a principled Christian has to be mindful that the Church is a human institution, subject to the same fallacies and temptations as any individual. So when the Christian right begins to dabble in the political sphere, and finds itself stooping to the tactics of an unprincipled ward heel to pick up votes, the faith gets tarnished in the process.

TitanTiger · June 28, 2007

Amazing how Christianity has been in such widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years but these guys are among the handful who finally "got it right."

Forgive me if I put more stock in the early church fathers, many of whom were directly mentored by Apostles, than I do a denomination that studies at the altar of Contemporary Eisegesis.

Christianity was in widespread agreement for the better part of 2000 years?

Yeah, pretty much. Particularly on matters of morality, which is what he's driving at. Hell, up until the 1930s even the Protestant churches were still in agreement with Catholics of all things on the subject of contraception.

I didn't say 100% agreement and I didn't say agreement on every jot and tittle and minutiae

of theology. But on the vast majority of major matters, remarkable agreement. The innovations and novelties in interpretation of the last 100 years or so are just that: novelties and innovations, not solid biblical understanding.

I'm a little unclear on your point-- So are you saying that folks like Pat Robertson, Falwell and Dobson are/were closer to the early church fathers than what Obama is talking about?

Well, there are two problems with your phrasing. First, Obama (whom I have a lot of respect for) said "Christian Right" which lumps a lot of people together. He didn't call out specific people he had problems with.

Second, playing along with your questions as asked, it depends. On matters of traditional morality such as marriage, abortion, homosexuality and other areas of traditional mores in culture, yes they probably are much closer to the early church fathers. I do think too many conservative Christians have bought into other items on the GOP agenda that are not biblical, but that doesn't invalidate 2000 years of widespread Christian understanding on major moral issues.

Plus, Obama mentioned other things he thought are also matters of morality such as the genocide in Darfur which guys like Robertson were hopping up and down about long before the media or practically anyone else gave a rip about it.

I guess it irritates me that he rather flippantly dismisses moral issues like abortion and traditional sexual morality while elevating his own pet "matters of conscience" in their place. He (and many Democrats) lose credibility on this issue with people like me because they substitute their contemporary moral issues and dismiss the rest as irrelevant or much less important. Had he said that the issues he champions should be added to the list of important moral issues, I might have responded differently.

TitanTiger · June 28, 2007

Ahem. This belief that Christianity (Not Christ, but His followers) has followed a morally consistent thread throughout the past 2000 years is a bunch of rubbish. For starters, no other faith, Islam included, has such a tradition of internecine butchery. From the Arian Heresy to the Inquisition to the Thirty Years War, hundreds of thousands combatants and innocents alike have suffered and died because the various sects of Christianity failed to live up to its major tenets as expressed in the Beatitudes.

No doubt that Christians have failed to live up to Christianity's major tenets as expressed not only through the Beatitudes but the entirety of Scripture. That doesn't make those tenets any less true.

Further, the Church has not adhered to any consistent doctrine on what we would consider foundational beliefs today. Marriage wasn't even a sacrament of the church until the 12th Century and early term Abortion was not considered a sin until the 1800s chiefly because the fetus was considered to be without soul until the 67th day after conception.

The early church fathers would disagree:

"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1,2 [A.D. 70]).
"What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers?

...[W]hen we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians 35 [A.D. 177]).

"In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed" (Tertullian, Apology 9:8 [A.D. 197]).

"[The doctors who performed abortions] all knew well enough that a living being had been conceived, and [they] pitied this most luckless infant state, which had first to be put to death, to escape being tortured alive" (Tertullian, The Soul 25 [A.D. 210]).

"Now we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does" (Tertullian, ibid., 27).

I mean, Tertullian was writing this barely 100 years after the passing of the last Apostle (John). The Didache was written while many of the original twelve were still living and not even 40 years after the Resurrection.

There may have been pockets of culture here and there that thought such nonsense but it was never the teaching of the Catholic church through the 1500s (or now either) nor the Protestants after the 1500s until some Protestants in the last century began to abandon solid biblical teaching and allow themselves to be blown by the cultural winds into ever-increasing irrelevance.

And marriage was always treated with the reverence of a sacrament and considered permanent. The fact that it was only officially catalogued as a sacrament doesn't mean it was treated totally different for 12 centuries until then. It was merely officially defined as a sacrament to combat the heretical Gnostic notion that marriage was merely a human institution and thus inferior to more "spiritual" matters. It was a part of a bigger argument over the worth of the "spiritual" and the "material."

Add indulgences, floggings and tortures for minor violations, unspeakable corruption, excessive taxations, enslavement, suppression of learning, etc. etc., and you find that the Church displayed lamentable conduct throughout his history, far worse conduct than was expected of its adherents--Protestants and Catholics alike.

This gets back to whether they were living up to what the Bible and the early church fathers taught and handed down to us. It doesn't invalidate what was the official understanding on these matters.

So, yes, I think a principled Christian has to be mindful that the Church is a human institution, subject to the same fallacies and temptations as any individual. So when the Christian right begins to dabble in the political sphere, and finds itself stooping to the tactics of an unprincipled ward heel to pick up votes, the faith gets tarnished in the process.

The Church is instituted and kept by God, but comprised of humans. That is an important distinction. When God says that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it and that it is the bulwark and pillar of truth, that tells me that though they may lose sight of the ultimate purpose from time to time or that various individuals or pockets of individuals may do wrong, He will preserve it and guide it back on to the right path. But that's very different from what congregations like the UCC and their ilk essentially claim with their novel theology which is not that the Church made mistakes but that they have gotten it so spectacularly wrong that we should toss aside almost all systematic theology or church teaching prior to the 20th century.

otterinbham · June 28, 2007

Titan, you're very selective in your quotation of the church fathers on the question of abortion, which I regard as an absolute wrong.

St. Augustine held to the Aristotelian notion that the soul cannot exist in an undeveloped fetus. Only in the later stages of pregnancy could abortion be considered murder. St. Jerome held to the same beliefs in letters, basically declaring abortion to be a sin only dependent on what stage of gestation the fetus was. St. Thomas Aquinas believed that the fetus did not have a soul until its "quickening," the time when the mother could detect movement of the fetus in the womb. I hardly think you could term Augustine, Jerome, and Aquinas as fringe elements in the theological life of the church.

Further, the pendulum on this question swayed back and forth among various popes. Pope Innocent III agreed with the church theologians I mention above, and set guidelines based on the criteria of quickening. While Sixtus V had a papal bull prohibiting abortion at any stage of pregnancy, his successor Pope Gregory XIV revoked that bull with one of his own stating that quickening only occured 116 days into pregnancy. The debate within the church went back and forth on this over the centuries, with the church only reaching its present position in 1869.

So your position that the Church had a consistent policy on this subject is dubious. Given its inconsistency on an issue as fundamental as abortion, your position that the church has been unchanged for 2000 years on a range of other issues is equally unfounded.

In fact, a very good case can be made that the Church has typically been a reactive force to fundamental social change, whether through the dissemination of knowledge by scientists such as Galileo and Copernicus, the continued struggle for equal rights for women and minorities, or the belief in religious self-determination. In all these issues, the mainstream conservative churches have often stood squarely in the way of what we all would consider to be absolute goods today.

TitanTiger · June 28, 2007

Titan, you're very selective in your quotation of the church fathers on the question of abortion, which I regard as an absolute wrong.
St. Augustine held to the Aristotelian notion that the soul cannot exist in an undeveloped fetus. Only in the later stages of pregnancy could abortion be considered murder. St. Jerome held to the same beliefs in letters, basically declaring abortion to be a sin only dependent on what stage of gestation the fetus was. St. Thomas Aquinas believed that the fetus did not have a soul until its "quickening," the time when the mother could detect movement of the fetus in the womb. I hardly think you could term Augustine, Jerome, and Aquinas as fringe elements in the theological life of the church.

Further, the pendulum on this question swayed back and forth among various popes. Pope Innocent III agreed with the church theologians I mention above, and set guidelines based on the criteria of quickening. While Sixtus V had a papal bull prohibiting abortion at any stage of pregnancy, his successor Pope Gregory XIV revoked that bull with one of his own stating that quickening only occured 116 days into pregnancy. The debate within the church went back and forth on this over the centuries, with the church only reaching its present position in 1869.

So your position that the Church had a consistent policy on this subject is dubious. Given its inconsistency on an issue as fundamental as abortion, your position that the church has been unchanged for 2000 years on a range of other issues is equally unfounded.

First, I wasn't trying to be selective. I just went to the earliest writings I could find as those would tend to be more reliable gauges of what the Apostles taught on the matter than those several centuries removed. There was no attempt to tip the scales by leaving something out. It was just resolutely the position of the earliest Christians that the soul was imparted at conception.

Second, the notion of quickening or the soul coming several weeks after conception is not quite accurate. They didn't believe that conception happened at an instant early on, then the baby developed and later got a soul. In their limited scientific understanding, Aquinas (and Aristotle) believed that conception was a process that took between 40 and 90 days to finish. But they still believed that the soul was given at conception.

"The conception of the male finishes on the fortieth day and that of the woman on the ninetieth, as Aristotle says in the IX Book of the Animals" (Aquinas, Commentary on III Sentences 3:5:2).

Being mistaken on when conception was finished is far different from believing it's finished and then the soul comes at some arbitrary moment later in gestation. This was a common misunderstanding based on the science available until advances in biology in the 19th century proved it wrong and we eventually came to realize conception is almost instantaneous. Once we understood that, the Catholic church (and basically all Protestants as well) took that knowledge into account when reaffirming that the soul is given at conception and abortion is wrong from the time the soul is given.

Third, even when they were ignorant of how conception worked they didn't consider abortion morally acceptable. It was still considered a sin, just not to the level of homicide (which is what they considered it after conception had "finished." I'm not Catholic but since the Church was the Catholic Church before the 1500's their writings are the ones I'm pointing to. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith noted in 1974's "Declaration on Procured Abortion" explains it well:

In the course of history, the Fathers of the Church, her Pastors and her Doctors have taught the same doctrine (that human life must be protected and favored from the beginning, just as at the various stages of its development) - the various opinions on the infusion of the spiritual soul did not introduce any doubt about the illicitness of abortion. It is true that in the Middle Ages, when the opinion was generally held that the spiritual soul was not present until after the first few weeks, a distinction was made in the evaluation of the sin and the gravity of penal sanctions. Excellent authors allowed for this first period more lenient case solutions which they rejected for following periods. But it was never denied at that time that procured abortion, even during the first days, was objectively grave fault. This condemnation was in fact unanimous.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...bortion_en.html

Even the aforementioned Aquinas who made a distinction based on ignorance still held that no direct abortion was morally licit, that all abortions were a grave sin (peccatum grave); among evil deeds (inter maleficia), and against nature (contra naturam); (''Commentary on Sentences,'' Bk. 4, dist. 1, art. 3)

I could give more sources if they are desired but the historical evidence is clear...Christians from the times of the Apostles to only within the last century regarded abortion as a grave moral evil and only to the degree over which there was ignorance in the biology of conception did they make any distinction in the penalty for procuring one. Similarly the church's understanding of marriage and of sexual immorality particularly as it pertains to homosexual acts have been virtually the same and unwavering from the times of the Apostles. That the UCC and others think that Christendom has gotten in so wrong and politicians like Obama would chide her about those beliefs is laughable.

TexasTiger · June 29, 2007

Well, there are two problems with your phrasing. First, Obama (whom I have a lot of respect for) said "Christian Right" which lumps a lot of people together. He didn't call out specific people he had problems with.

He actually said "so-called leaders of the Christian Right", and specified a particular position of the Christian Coalition.

I guess it irritates me that he rather flippantly dismisses moral issues like abortion and traditional sexual morality while elevating his own pet "matters of conscience" in their place. He (and many Democrats) lose credibility on this issue with people like me because they substitute their contemporary moral issues and dismiss the rest as irrelevant or much less important. Had he said that the issues he champions should be added to the list of important moral issues, I might have responded differently.

I don't know if you read the actual speech, instead of the edited, unsourced excerpt TM listed above, but I don't think you fairly characterize what he actually said. He didn't dismiss those things at all:

So doing the Lord's work is a thread that's run through our politics since the very beginning. And it puts the lie to the notion that the separation of church and state in America means faith should have no role in public life. Imagine Lincoln's Second Inaugural without its reference to "the judgments of the Lord." Or King's "I Have a Dream" speech without its reference to "all of God's children." Or President Kennedy's Inaugural without the words, "here on Earth, God's work must truly be our own." At each of these junctures, by summoning a higher truth and embracing a universal faith, our leaders inspired ordinary people to achieve extraordinary things.

But somehow, somewhere along the way, faith stopped being used to bring us together and started being used to drive us apart. It got hijacked. Part of it's because of the so-called leaders of the Christian Right, who've been all too eager to exploit what divides us. At every opportunity, they've told evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design. There was even a time when the Christian Coalition determined that its number one legislative priority was tax cuts for the rich. I don't know what Bible they're reading, but it doesn't jibe with my version.

But I'm hopeful because I think there's an awakening taking place in America. People are coming together around a simple truth - that we are all connected, that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper. And that it's not enough to just believe this - we have to do our part to make it a reality. My faith teaches me that I can sit in church and pray all I want, but I won't be fulfilling God's will unless I go out and do the Lord's work.

That's why pastors, friends of mine like Rick Warren and T.D. Jakes and organizations like World Vision and Catholic Charities are wielding their enormous influence to confront poverty, HIV/AIDS, and the genocide in Darfur. Religious leaders like my friends Rev. Jim Wallis and Rabbi David Saperstein and Nathan Diament are working for justice and fighting for change. And all across the country, communities of faith are sponsoring day care programs, building senior centers, and in so many other ways, taking part in the project of American renewal.

...

Our conscience can't rest so long as 37 million Americans are poor and forgotten by their leaders in Washington and by the media elites. We need to heed the biblical call to care for "the least of these" and lift the poor out of despair.

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/06/23/a_po...onscience_1.php

I don't think he "added moral issues", but rather focused on Christ's command to us that how we treat "the least of these", we treat him. This is how Christ said nations would be judged. To our knowledge, Christ never said anything about homosexuality, but to watch the Christian Right over the last few years, one would think it was at the top of Christ's agenda.

The Judgment of the Nations
31 Ã‚Â¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 for I was ahungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 for I was ahungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

CCTAU · June 29, 2007

Forgive me if I don't get my religious inspiration form Obama. As if he even has a clue. I want God, guns, and country. Short of that, if you shave your noogies (or even look like it), your opinion means nothing to me. So I ignore Obama and his idiocy. He is the black John Edwards.

TitanTiger · June 29, 2007

I don't know if you read the actual speech, instead of the edited, unsourced excerpt TM listed above, but I don't think you fairly characterize what he actually said. He didn't dismiss those things at all:

So doing the Lord's work is a thread that's run through our politics since the very beginning. And it puts the lie to the notion that the separation of church and state in America means faith should have no role in public life. Imagine Lincoln's Second Inaugural without its reference to "the judgments of the Lord." Or King's "I Have a Dream" speech without its reference to "all of God's children." Or President Kennedy's Inaugural without the words, "here on Earth, God's work must truly be our own." At each of these junctures, by summoning a higher truth and embracing a universal faith, our leaders inspired ordinary people to achieve extraordinary things.

But somehow, somewhere along the way, faith stopped being used to bring us together and started being used to drive us apart. It got hijacked. Part of it's because of the so-called leaders of the Christian Right, who've been all too eager to exploit what divides us. At every opportunity, they've told evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design. There was even a time when the Christian Coalition determined that its number one legislative priority was tax cuts for the rich. I don't know what Bible they're reading, but it doesn't jibe with my version.

But I'm hopeful because I think there's an awakening taking place in America. People are coming together around a simple truth - that we are all connected, that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper. And that it's not enough to just believe this - we have to do our part to make it a reality. My faith teaches me that I can sit in church and pray all I want, but I won't be fulfilling God's will unless I go out and do the Lord's work.

That's why pastors, friends of mine like Rick Warren and T.D. Jakes and organizations like World Vision and Catholic Charities are wielding their enormous influence to confront poverty, HIV/AIDS, and the genocide in Darfur. Religious leaders like my friends Rev. Jim Wallis and Rabbi David Saperstein and Nathan Diament are working for justice and fighting for change. And all across the country, communities of faith are sponsoring day care programs, building senior centers, and in so many other ways, taking part in the project of American renewal.

...

Our conscience can't rest so long as 37 million Americans are poor and forgotten by their leaders in Washington and by the media elites. We need to heed the biblical call to care for "the least of these" and lift the poor out of despair.

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/06/23/a_po...onscience_1.php

I don't think he "added moral issues", but rather focused on Christ's command to us that how we treat "the least of these", we treat him. This is how Christ said nations would be judged. To our knowledge, Christ never said anything about homosexuality, but to watch the Christian Right over the last few years, one would think it was at the top of Christ's agenda.

That's better. The portion I originally read sounded like just another Democrat trying to preach to us silly conservatives that our moral issues are petty and theirs are what really matter. I actually agree that concern and care for "the least of these" needs to be higher up list of moral concerns for some Christians.

But on a side note, it's true that Christ never specifically spoke on homosexuality. Then again he never spoke on beastiality, incest, group sex or porn either, but it doesn't mean such things didn't matter to him. Christ did affirm God's design for sexuality and marriage which deals with all of the above and more. Understand that and the answers to homosexuality and other sexual matters are perfectly clear. Christ never said not to beat your wife specifically either but he did speak of how to treat people and love others as you love yourself, so if you can't glean that beating your wife is wrong from that, you're being purposely dense.

CCTAU · June 29, 2007

But on a side note, it's true that Christ never specifically spoke on homosexuality.

By the time he came along, hadn't God already addressed that in the form of many billions of gallons of water?

TitanTiger · June 29, 2007

But on a side note, it's true that Christ never specifically spoke on homosexuality.

By the time he came along, hadn't God already addressed that in the form of many billions of gallons of water?

Well perhaps. But probably more directly when He addressed it (and numerous other sins) with a hail of fire and brimstone.

TexasTiger · June 30, 2007

I don't know if you read the actual speech, instead of the edited, unsourced excerpt TM listed above, but I don't think you fairly characterize what he actually said. He didn't dismiss those things at all:

So doing the Lord's work is a thread that's run through our politics since the very beginning. And it puts the lie to the notion that the separation of church and state in America means faith should have no role in public life. Imagine Lincoln's Second Inaugural without its reference to "the judgments of the Lord." Or King's "I Have a Dream" speech without its reference to "all of God's children." Or President Kennedy's Inaugural without the words, "here on Earth, God's work must truly be our own." At each of these junctures, by summoning a higher truth and embracing a universal faith, our leaders inspired ordinary people to achieve extraordinary things.

But somehow, somewhere along the way, faith stopped being used to bring us together and started being used to drive us apart. It got hijacked. Part of it's because of the so-called leaders of the Christian Right, who've been all too eager to exploit what divides us. At every opportunity, they've told evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design. There was even a time when the Christian Coalition determined that its number one legislative priority was tax cuts for the rich. I don't know what Bible they're reading, but it doesn't jibe with my version.

But I'm hopeful because I think there's an awakening taking place in America. People are coming together around a simple truth - that we are all connected, that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper. And that it's not enough to just believe this - we have to do our part to make it a reality. My faith teaches me that I can sit in church and pray all I want, but I won't be fulfilling God's will unless I go out and do the Lord's work.

That's why pastors, friends of mine like Rick Warren and T.D. Jakes and organizations like World Vision and Catholic Charities are wielding their enormous influence to confront poverty, HIV/AIDS, and the genocide in Darfur. Religious leaders like my friends Rev. Jim Wallis and Rabbi David Saperstein and Nathan Diament are working for justice and fighting for change. And all across the country, communities of faith are sponsoring day care programs, building senior centers, and in so many other ways, taking part in the project of American renewal.

...

Our conscience can't rest so long as 37 million Americans are poor and forgotten by their leaders in Washington and by the media elites. We need to heed the biblical call to care for "the least of these" and lift the poor out of despair.

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/06/23/a_po...onscience_1.php

I don't think he "added moral issues", but rather focused on Christ's command to us that how we treat "the least of these", we treat him. This is how Christ said nations would be judged. To our knowledge, Christ never said anything about homosexuality, but to watch the Christian Right over the last few years, one would think it was at the top of Christ's agenda.

That's better. The portion I originally read sounded like just another Democrat trying to preach to us silly conservatives that our moral issues are petty and theirs are what really matter. I actually agree that concern and care for "the least of these" needs to be higher up list of moral concerns for some Christians.

But on a side note, it's true that Christ never specifically spoke on homosexuality. Then again he never spoke on beastiality, incest, group sex or porn either, but it doesn't mean such things didn't matter to him. Christ did affirm God's design for sexuality and marriage which deals with all of the above and more. Understand that and the answers to homosexuality and other sexual matters are perfectly clear. Christ never said not to beat your wife specifically either but he did speak of how to treat people and love others as you love yourself, so if you can't glean that beating your wife is wrong from that, you're being purposely dense.

Of course Christ didn't detail every possible wrong. But there was a strong theme throughout his teachings that one rarely sees the so-called Christian Right champion. When I hear those on the far right suggest how we as a nation will be judged, I don't hear them quoting what Christ explicitly stated nations would be judged on. I do hear simplistic and misinformed references to Sodom and Gomorrah. But there is also Biblical support for the notion that those cities were destroyed for reasons similar to what Christ stated about how we treat "the least of these."

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

Tigermike · July 1, 2007

Trinity United Church of Christ
About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically ChristianÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some excerpts from the "Black Value System" via the Trinity ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s website (pdf):

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%...ue%20system.pdf

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM
Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School SystemÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The God of our weary yearsÃ¢â‚¬Â will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankindÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of Ã¢â‚¬Å“MiddleclassnessÃ¢â‚¬Â

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the Ã¢â‚¬Å“talented tenthÃ¢â‚¬Â of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of Ã¢â‚¬Å“weÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“theyÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“usÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

A visit to the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bookstore shows they have been true to their word. It is full of "Afrocentric" books, many of which make the usual preposterous Afrocentric claims, such as that Cleopatra was black (who cares) etc. etc. etc.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Those are some great points. But looking at the website for Obama's church it would seem that the church is Afrocentric, Racist and way over the edge. Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am I have no doubt that it will be pointed out. If a business is Afrocentric there is nothing at all wrong with that and no one should care at all. But a church? A presidential candidate?

If a church of a candidate ® was "whitecentric", wouldn't that be played up and denounced by democrats & the MSM?

Any thoughts?

TexasTiger · July 1, 2007

Trinity United Church of Christ
About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically ChristianÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some excerpts from the "Black Value System" via the Trinity ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s website (pdf):

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%...ue%20system.pdf

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM
Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School SystemÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The God of our weary yearsÃ¢â‚¬Â will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankindÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of Ã¢â‚¬Å“MiddleclassnessÃ¢â‚¬Â

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the Ã¢â‚¬Å“talented tenthÃ¢â‚¬Â of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of Ã¢â‚¬Å“weÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“theyÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“usÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

A visit to the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bookstore shows they have been true to their word. It is full of "Afrocentric" books, many of which make the usual preposterous Afrocentric claims, such as that Cleopatra was black (who cares) etc. etc. etc.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Those are some great points. But looking at the website for Obama's church it would seem that the church is Afrocentric, Racist and way over the edge. Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am I have no doubt that it will be pointed out. If a business is Afrocentric there is nothing at all wrong with that and no one should care at all. But a church? A presidential candidate?

If a church of a candidate Ã‚Â® was "whitecentric", wouldn't that be played up and denounced by democrats & the MSM?

Any thoughts?

What's your source? Your first link is not identical to what you posted.

Tigermike · July 1, 2007

Trinity United Church of Christ
About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically ChristianÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some excerpts from the "Black Value System" via the Trinity ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s website (pdf):

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%...ue%20system.pdf

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM
Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School SystemÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The God of our weary yearsÃ¢â‚¬Â will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankindÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of Ã¢â‚¬Å“MiddleclassnessÃ¢â‚¬Â

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the Ã¢â‚¬Å“talented tenthÃ¢â‚¬Â of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of Ã¢â‚¬Å“weÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“theyÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“usÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

A visit to the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bookstore shows they have been true to their word. It is full of "Afrocentric" books, many of which make the usual preposterous Afrocentric claims, such as that Cleopatra was black (who cares) etc. etc. etc.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Those are some great points. But looking at the website for Obama's church it would seem that the church is Afrocentric, Racist and way over the edge. Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am I have no doubt that it will be pointed out. If a business is Afrocentric there is nothing at all wrong with that and no one should care at all. But a church? A presidential candidate?

If a church of a candidate ( R ) was "whitecentric", wouldn't that be played up and denounced by democrats & the MSM?

Any thoughts?

What's your source? Your first link is not identical to what you posted.

All of these links (and the link in the original post) go to the church's website, I didn't make any of it up. I first read his statement (somewhere on the web and I am not sure where). Then I did a little search and came up with the information that Obama attended the church linked here.

It all seemed a little odd for Obama to make the statement he did when the church he attends has the philosophy/agenda it does. When the rubber meets the road, we all look at things the way we do things. On a personal note I wouldn't attend a church that espoused an obvious racists agenda. And I would think it a little bit important to know if a presidential candidate did as well. No matter what party he/she was affiliated with. If it's no big deal say so and we will move on. I just thought it was interesting. When these people R & D are running for the highest office in the land it does not hurt to know as much as possible about them and not just what they and the media want you to know.

TexasTiger · July 1, 2007

Trinity United Church of Christ
About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically ChristianÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some excerpts from the "Black Value System" via the Trinity ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s website (pdf):

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%...ue%20system.pdf

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM
Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School SystemÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The God of our weary yearsÃ¢â‚¬Â will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankindÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of Ã¢â‚¬Å“MiddleclassnessÃ¢â‚¬Â

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the Ã¢â‚¬Å“talented tenthÃ¢â‚¬Â of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of Ã¢â‚¬Å“weÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“theyÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“usÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

A visit to the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bookstore shows they have been true to their word. It is full of "Afrocentric" books, many of which make the usual preposterous Afrocentric claims, such as that Cleopatra was black (who cares) etc. etc. etc.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Those are some great points. But looking at the website for Obama's church it would seem that the church is Afrocentric, Racist and way over the edge. Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am I have no doubt that it will be pointed out. If a business is Afrocentric there is nothing at all wrong with that and no one should care at all. But a church? A presidential candidate?

If a church of a candidate ( R ) was "whitecentric", wouldn't that be played up and denounced by democrats & the MSM?

Any thoughts?

What's your source? Your first link is not identical to what you posted.

All of these links (and the link in the original post) go to the church's website, I didn't make any of it up. I first read his statement (somewhere on the web and I am not sure where). Then I did a little search and came up with the information that Obama attended the church linked here.

It all seemed a little odd for Obama to make the statement he did when the church he attends has the philosophy/agenda it does. When the rubber meets the road, we all look at things the way we do things. On a personal note I wouldn't attend a church that espoused an obvious racists agenda. And I would think it a little bit important to know if a presidential candidate did as well. No matter what party he/she was affiliated with. If it's no big deal say so and we will move on. I just thought it was interesting. When these people R & D are running for the highest office in the land it does not hurt to know as much as possible about them and not just what they and the media want you to know.

Well, if you click the first link, you'll find this:

About Us
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.

A congregation preaching SALVATION.

A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Click here to read about Dr. WrightÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s talking points for Trinity United Church of Christ its Web site and the Black Value System.

So what specifically do you find racist?

Tigermike · July 1, 2007

Trinity United Church of Christ
About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically ChristianÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some excerpts from the "Black Value System" via the Trinity ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s website (pdf):

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%...ue%20system.pdf

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM
Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School SystemÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The God of our weary yearsÃ¢â‚¬Â will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankindÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of Ã¢â‚¬Å“MiddleclassnessÃ¢â‚¬Â

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the Ã¢â‚¬Å“talented tenthÃ¢â‚¬Â of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of Ã¢â‚¬Å“weÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“theyÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“usÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

A visit to the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bookstore shows they have been true to their word. It is full of "Afrocentric" books, many of which make the usual preposterous Afrocentric claims, such as that Cleopatra was black (who cares) etc. etc. etc.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Those are some great points. But looking at the website for Obama's church it would seem that the church is Afrocentric, Racist and way over the edge. Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am I have no doubt that it will be pointed out. If a business is Afrocentric there is nothing at all wrong with that and no one should care at all. But a church? A presidential candidate?

If a church of a candidate ( R ) was "whitecentric", wouldn't that be played up and denounced by democrats & the MSM?

Any thoughts?

What's your source? Your first link is not identical to what you posted.

All of these links (and the link in the original post) go to the church's website, I didn't make any of it up. I first read his statement (somewhere on the web and I am not sure where). Then I did a little search and came up with the information that Obama attended the church linked here.

It all seemed a little odd for Obama to make the statement he did when the church he attends has the philosophy/agenda it does. When the rubber meets the road, we all look at things the way we do things. On a personal note I wouldn't attend a church that espoused an obvious racists agenda. And I would think it a little bit important to know if a presidential candidate did as well. No matter what party he/she was affiliated with. If it's no big deal say so and we will move on. I just thought it was interesting. When these people R & D are running for the highest office in the land it does not hurt to know as much as possible about them and not just what they and the media want you to know.

Well, if you click the first link, you'll find this:

About Us
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.

A congregation preaching SALVATION.

A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Click here to read about Dr. WrightÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s talking points for Trinity United Church of Christ its Web site and the Black Value System.

So what specifically do you find racist?

And if you do the other link you find this. PDF

Is this more of your normal deflection?

TexasTiger · July 1, 2007

Trinity United Church of Christ
About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically ChristianÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some excerpts from the "Black Value System" via the Trinity ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s website (pdf):

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%...ue%20system.pdf

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM
Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School SystemÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The God of our weary yearsÃ¢â‚¬Â will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankindÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of Ã¢â‚¬Å“MiddleclassnessÃ¢â‚¬Â

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the Ã¢â‚¬Å“talented tenthÃ¢â‚¬Â of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of Ã¢â‚¬Å“weÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“theyÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“usÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

A visit to the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bookstore shows they have been true to their word. It is full of "Afrocentric" books, many of which make the usual preposterous Afrocentric claims, such as that Cleopatra was black (who cares) etc. etc. etc.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Those are some great points. But looking at the website for Obama's church it would seem that the church is Afrocentric, Racist and way over the edge. Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am I have no doubt that it will be pointed out. If a business is Afrocentric there is nothing at all wrong with that and no one should care at all. But a church? A presidential candidate?

If a church of a candidate ( R ) was "whitecentric", wouldn't that be played up and denounced by democrats & the MSM?

Any thoughts?

What's your source? Your first link is not identical to what you posted.

All of these links (and the link in the original post) go to the church's website, I didn't make any of it up. I first read his statement (somewhere on the web and I am not sure where). Then I did a little search and came up with the information that Obama attended the church linked here.

It all seemed a little odd for Obama to make the statement he did when the church he attends has the philosophy/agenda it does. When the rubber meets the road, we all look at things the way we do things. On a personal note I wouldn't attend a church that espoused an obvious racists agenda. And I would think it a little bit important to know if a presidential candidate did as well. No matter what party he/she was affiliated with. If it's no big deal say so and we will move on. I just thought it was interesting. When these people R & D are running for the highest office in the land it does not hurt to know as much as possible about them and not just what they and the media want you to know.

Well, if you click the first link, you'll find this:

About Us
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.

A congregation preaching SALVATION.

A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Click here to read about Dr. WrightÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s talking points for Trinity United Church of Christ its Web site and the Black Value System.

So what specifically do you find racist?

And if you do the other link you find this. PDF

Is this more of your normal deflection?

I asked a specific question you haven't answered. Is that your normal deflection?

Your links don't jive with your post. Don't blame me for that.

Tigermike · July 1, 2007

Trinity United Church of Christ
About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically ChristianÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some excerpts from the "Black Value System" via the Trinity ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s website (pdf):

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%...ue%20system.pdf

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM
Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School SystemÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The God of our weary yearsÃ¢â‚¬Â will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankindÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of Ã¢â‚¬Å“MiddleclassnessÃ¢â‚¬Â

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the Ã¢â‚¬Å“talented tenthÃ¢â‚¬Â of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of Ã¢â‚¬Å“weÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“theyÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“usÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

A visit to the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bookstore shows they have been true to their word. It is full of "Afrocentric" books, many of which make the usual preposterous Afrocentric claims, such as that Cleopatra was black (who cares) etc. etc. etc.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Those are some great points. But looking at the website for Obama's church it would seem that the church is Afrocentric, Racist and way over the edge. Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am I have no doubt that it will be pointed out. If a business is Afrocentric there is nothing at all wrong with that and no one should care at all. But a church? A presidential candidate?

If a church of a candidate ( R ) was "whitecentric", wouldn't that be played up and denounced by democrats & the MSM?

Any thoughts?

What's your source? Your first link is not identical to what you posted.

All of these links (and the link in the original post) go to the church's website, I didn't make any of it up. I first read his statement (somewhere on the web and I am not sure where). Then I did a little search and came up with the information that Obama attended the church linked here.

It all seemed a little odd for Obama to make the statement he did when the church he attends has the philosophy/agenda it does. When the rubber meets the road, we all look at things the way we do things. On a personal note I wouldn't attend a church that espoused an obvious racists agenda. And I would think it a little bit important to know if a presidential candidate did as well. No matter what party he/she was affiliated with. If it's no big deal say so and we will move on. I just thought it was interesting. When these people R & D are running for the highest office in the land it does not hurt to know as much as possible about them and not just what they and the media want you to know.

Well, if you click the first link, you'll find this:

About Us
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.

A congregation preaching SALVATION.

A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Click here to read about Dr. WrightÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s talking points for Trinity United Church of Christ its Web site and the Black Value System.

So what specifically do you find racist?

And if you do the other link you find this. PDF

Is this more of your normal deflection?

I asked a specific question you haven't answered. Is that your normal deflection?

Your links don't jive with your post. Don't blame me for that.

First of all the links do jive with the post and they all come from the same place.

If you can't answer the questions I asked that's fine, but don't start your BS.

TexasTiger · July 1, 2007

Trinity United Church of Christ
About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically ChristianÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some excerpts from the "Black Value System" via the Trinity ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s website (pdf):

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%...ue%20system.pdf

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM
Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School SystemÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The God of our weary yearsÃ¢â‚¬Â will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankindÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of Ã¢â‚¬Å“MiddleclassnessÃ¢â‚¬Â

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the Ã¢â‚¬Å“talented tenthÃ¢â‚¬Â of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of Ã¢â‚¬Å“weÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“theyÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“usÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

A visit to the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bookstore shows they have been true to their word. It is full of "Afrocentric" books, many of which make the usual preposterous Afrocentric claims, such as that Cleopatra was black (who cares) etc. etc. etc.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Those are some great points. But looking at the website for Obama's church it would seem that the church is Afrocentric, Racist and way over the edge. Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am I have no doubt that it will be pointed out. If a business is Afrocentric there is nothing at all wrong with that and no one should care at all. But a church? A presidential candidate?

If a church of a candidate ( R ) was "whitecentric", wouldn't that be played up and denounced by democrats & the MSM?

Any thoughts?

What's your source? Your first link is not identical to what you posted.

All of these links (and the link in the original post) go to the church's website, I didn't make any of it up. I first read his statement (somewhere on the web and I am not sure where). Then I did a little search and came up with the information that Obama attended the church linked here.

It all seemed a little odd for Obama to make the statement he did when the church he attends has the philosophy/agenda it does. When the rubber meets the road, we all look at things the way we do things. On a personal note I wouldn't attend a church that espoused an obvious racists agenda. And I would think it a little bit important to know if a presidential candidate did as well. No matter what party he/she was affiliated with. If it's no big deal say so and we will move on. I just thought it was interesting. When these people R & D are running for the highest office in the land it does not hurt to know as much as possible about them and not just what they and the media want you to know.

Well, if you click the first link, you'll find this:

About Us
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.

A congregation preaching SALVATION.

A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Click here to read about Dr. WrightÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s talking points for Trinity United Church of Christ its Web site and the Black Value System.

So what specifically do you find racist?

And if you do the other link you find this. PDF

Is this more of your normal deflection?

I asked a specific question you haven't answered. Is that your normal deflection?

Your links don't jive with your post. Don't blame me for that.

First of all the links do jive with the post and they all come from the same place.

If you can't answer the questions I asked that's fine, but don't start your BS.

Your questions are based on your unexplained assertion that the church is "racist". To answer you question, I need to understand what you are basing that on.

Tigermike · July 1, 2007

First you started with "the links don't jive", but they do.

Now you say "Your questions are based on your unexplained assertion that the church is "racist". To answer your question, I need to understand what you are basing that on."

I based it on information on their website. Which it appears was just too much for you to follow.

Here it is again and I am typing real slow for you.

All of these links (and the link in the original post) go to the church's website, I didn't make any of it up. I first read his statement (somewhere on the web and I am not sure where). Then I did a little search and came up with the information that Obama attended the church linked here.

It all seemed a little odd for Obama to make the statement he did when the church he attends has the philosophy/agenda it does. When the rubber meets the road, we all look at things the way we do things. On a personal note I wouldn't attend a church that espoused an obvious racists agenda. And I would think it a little bit important to know if a presidential candidate did as well. No matter what party he/she was affiliated with. If it's no big deal say so and we will move on. I just thought it was interesting. When these people R & D are running for the highest office in the land it does not hurt to know as much as possible about them and not just what they and the media want you to know.

Here is an easy question for you. After looking at the info from their web site do you consider it Afrocentric, biased or racists in any way?

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TexasTiger 13,006

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CCTAU 3,342

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TitanTiger 20,510

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CCTAU 3,342

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TitanTiger 20,510

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TexasTiger 13,006

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Tigermike 3,053

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TexasTiger 13,006

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