Anyone else think this is a problem?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

The rise in gang activity coincides with the increase in recruits with records. Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

A hidden-camera investigation by CBS Denver station KCNC found one military recruiter was quick to offer the waiver option even when asked, "Does it matter that i was in a gang or anything?" That is well within military regulations

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/28/...tr=HOME_3107316

[Tiger in Spain 0]

That is well within military regulations

It appears according to this revelation that no rules were broken, so the military avoided a black eye.....this time. More hidden camera smear pieces are sure to follow.

If you ask me, we could use some more people with dirt on their hands. God knows we have enough peace corps flunkies that think our primary job is going out and painting orphanages and handing out candy.

There is a guy that works close to me that was a gang banger back in his adolescent years. Couldn't tell it today. The guy is one of the most professional military men I have known in my 21 years of service. The guy got a waiver to enter the military. The transformation did wonders for him. I guess, at least according to the pencil necks at KCNC, no one deserves the chance to try and better themselves. Not everyone in the military are saints, but the ones like the guys that took part in SGT Johnson's murder are located well in the outliers section of the armed forces demographic curve.

[AFTiger 282]

BTW TT, I answered your origianal question. The article implied to me there was a direct corelation between the intensity of military recruitment and the rise in gang activity.

The rise in gang activity coincides with the increase in recruits with records. Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

That is a false comparison and because liberals are anti-military only they could make that conclusion. Having spent many years in the military and during Vietnam, I understand the problems of recruiting in a hostile environment such as we have today.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

AFTiger, you completely misread the article and started this thread down the wrong path by responding like a snot based on your misreading.

I've deleted all the off topic crap and the personal sniping (both TT and AFTiger), as well as Bottomfeeder's foray which I'm getting increasingly sick of.

Stick to the subject which is whether the US Military granting waivers to gang bangers who have serious felonies on their rap sheet into the armed forces is a problem or not. Despite TIS's example, I'm thinking the policy needs to be reigned in. Having some gang ties is one thing. But if the kind of crap that happened to this kid can happen, something is screwed up in a big way with this policy.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

The rise in gang activity coincides with the increase in recruits with records. Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

That is a false comparison and because liberals are anti-military only they could make that conclusion. Having spent many years in the military and during Vietnam, I understand the problems of recruiting in a hostile environment such as we have today.

Why is it a false comparison? There's a rise in gang activity in the US Military. There is a corresponding increase in admitting recruits with felonies on their record. That sounds like a possible correlation. You don't have to be anti-military (I'm not) to see that as a possible cause for concern. Get off the liberal hobby horse for a second and just discuss the topic like a grown up. Explain exactly why it's a false comparison and expound on what recruiting in a hostile environment has to do with the subject. Otherwise, just don't post.

No one's saying the Dems and Republicans have to sing Kumbaya and wash each other's feet around here, but don't pounce on someone just for the hell of it either, simply because they are a "libbie" and you're not (and vice versa).

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Despite TIS's example, I'm thinking the policy needs to be reigned in. Having some gang ties is one thing. But if the kind of crap that happened to this kid can happen, something is screwed up in a big way with this policy.

A lot of these thugs have records that go back to their juvenile days and as such, their criminal records are sealed.

As stupid and senseless as SGT Johnson's murder was, this is no indication that the military is a hotbed of gang activity. We have our share of idiots, just like the civilian world, but we have a way of taking care of our problems.....we give them back to you!! Across the board, I'd say the military is a lot safer environment than the civilian world. We typically police our own very well, but regardless of all the safeguards and prevention policies that are put in place, sh*t is going to happen. When it does, you react to it. These animals that killed SGT Johnson are getting theirs now.

In the Navy, recruits can receive a "moral waiver" if they have reported being in a gang, but they must convince their recruiter, the recruiting station Chief, and the folks at MEPS they’ve severed ties with the group. It's not a rubber stamp affair. Most of these waivers are submitted for things like DUI, small possession of pot, and so forth. A kid is automatically disqualified for military service if they have any convictions of trafficking drugs or any sexually violent crimes, or if they have more than one felony conviction.

[AFTiger 282]

Well TitanTiger, you got carried away with your editing and deleted my original response. The military recruits from the civilian world. The attitudes and problems of the civilian world make their way into the military with the former civilians, The liberal's campaign of harassment of recruiters to discourage recruiting in high schools and colleges has an effect on the ability to recruit fine upstanding young citizens. War against the war has shaped the recruiting process.

During Vietnam, marijuana use disqualified one from service until it became difficult to find recruits that had not ever used marijuana. There is a rise in gang activity in the US and it is a national problem. I am not an expert in recruiting rules but I suppose that waviers are for membership in a gang, but not for criminal activity. If membership in a gang is an automatic disqualifier for employment, what would happen to pokice forces and fire departments?

As TIS says, the military solution to ill behaved soldiers is to make them civilians again.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

It seems, from the video that was deleted, that the gang thugs improve their street fighting skills through the military. That means that we are paying for our own destruction. I would like to see the residual rates of thugs who re-enlist, and how many of them play football for FSU and University of Miami.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Well TitanTiger, you got carried away with your editing and deleted my original response.

If I got carried away, it was only because whatever minute amount of actual response was so intertwined with belligerant, reactionary bloviating that I couldn't make heads or tails of it.

This isn't just a message for you, it's for everyone on this forum: Take 10 seconds to think before you post. Stop making your first response some sort of knee-jerk reaction that has nothing to do with the subject and is basically just a retort based on the perceived political persuasion of whoever you're responding to.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

I am not an expert in recruiting rules but I suppose that waviers are for membership in a gang, but not for criminal activity. If membership in a gang is an automatic disqualifier for employment, what would happen to pokice forces and fire departments?

As TIS says, the military solution to ill behaved soldiers is to make them civilians again.

The report clearly pointed out that waivers are being given out for far more than just "gang activity", but for people with criminal records, including felonies like robbery and assault.

[AFTiger 282]

I am not an expert in recruiting rules but I suppose that waviers are for membership in a gang, but not for criminal activity. If membership in a gang is an automatic disqualifier for employment, what would happen to pokice forces and fire departments?

As TIS says, the military solution to ill behaved soldiers is to make them civilians again.

The report clearly pointed out that waivers are being given out for far more than just "gang activity", but for people with criminal records, including felonies like robbery and assault.

Not at all.

"You may have had some gang activity in your past and everything ... OK ... but that in itself does not disqualify...," the recruiter said. "

The Johnson family wants it added as a disqualifier.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

The report clearly pointed out that waivers are being given out for far more than just "gang activity", but for people with criminal records, including felonies like robbery and assault.

Not at all.

So, this sentence...

Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

...means something else in your version of English?

"You may have had some gang activity in your past and everything ... OK ... but that in itself does not disqualify...," the recruiter said. "

The Johnson family wants it added as a disqualifier.

So we're in agreement on this point.

[AFTiger 282]

The report clearly pointed out that waivers are being given out for far more than just "gang activity", but for people with criminal records, including felonies like robbery and assault.

Not at all.

So, this sentence...

Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

...means something else in your version of English?

Unless the rules have changed it means the reporter got it wrong.

"You may have had some gang activity in your past and everything ... OK ... but that in itself does not disqualify...," the recruiter said. "

The Johnson family wants it added as a disqualifier.

So we're in agreement on this point.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

The report clearly pointed out that waivers are being given out for far more than just "gang activity", but for people with criminal records, including felonies like robbery and assault.

Not at all.

So, this sentence...

Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

...means something else in your version of English?

Unless the rules have changed it means the reporter got it wrong.

You have got to be kidding me. They researched the records. They found 125,000 recruits currently in the armed forces with criminal histories including robbery and assault. This isn't a matter of opinion.

[AFTiger 282]

The report clearly pointed out that waivers are being given out for far more than just "gang activity", but for people with criminal records, including felonies like robbery and assault.

Not at all.

So, this sentence...

Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

...means something else in your version of English?

Unless the rules have changed it means the reporter got it wrong.

You have got to be kidding me. They researched the records. They found 125,000 recruits currently in the armed forces with criminal histories including robbery and assault. This isn't a matter of opinion.

Before Clinton and in the AF, those were not waiverable. But with scarcity, restrictions drop.

Should federal money be cut off to school systems who interfere with recruiters? It is in the law but so far unenforced.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Then why on earth are you arguing about it and railing against liberals? The report says it's happening and you admit that since Clinton and because of scarcity, it's happening. All TexasTiger was saying is, "This is happening. Anyone think this is a problem?" But you go all apes**t over it. I don't get it.

[AFTiger 282]

Then why on earth are you arguing about it and railing against liberals? The report says it's happening and you admit that since Clinton and because of scarcity, it's happening. All TexasTiger was saying is, "This is happening. Anyone think this is a problem?" But you go all apes**t over it. I don't get it.

Should federal money be cut off to school systems who interfere with recruiters? It is in the law but so far unenforced.

Have liberal's war against the military caused it?

The original clip was

The rise in gang activity coincides with the increase in recruits with records. Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

A hidden-camera investigation by CBS Denver station KCNC found one military recruiter was quick to offer the waiver option even when asked, "Does it matter that i was in a gang or anything?" That is well within military regulations

CBS

Hidden camera ambush

TexasTiger

Rise in gang activity caused by recriuters

I had a knee jerk reaction.

BTW, how many of those 125,000 have been involuntarily discharged? Given a new chance in life, just how many have reverted to the old way?

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Should federal money be cut off to school systems who interfere with recruiters? It is in the law but so far unenforced.

Have liberal's war against the military caused it?

I don't know. Do you think a proper response to having trouble meeting recruiting goals is to let convicted felons be admitted in greater numbers?

The original clip was

The rise in gang activity coincides with the increase in recruits with records. Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as "moral waivers" for felonies including robbery and assault.

A hidden-camera investigation by CBS Denver station KCNC found one military recruiter was quick to offer the waiver option even when asked, "Does it matter that i was in a gang or anything?" That is well within military regulations

CBS

So?

Hidden camera ambush

Hidden camera does not equate to "ambush." That's a bad leap of logic. You use a hidden camera to get the answer someone would give if they didn't think they're answer could get them in trouble. I'm sure you've seen hidden camera reports that uncover things you thought should needed to be dealt with. This is a non-issue.

TexasTiger

Again, so?

Rise in gang activity caused by recriuters

That's being a tad simplistic. It's more like the Law of Unintended Consequences at work. Problem: We need to meet recruiting goals. For various reasons, we're having a hard time doing this. So many recruiters start relaxing the standards and allow convicted felons into the military. Unintended Consequence: The felons don't stop being thugs just because you give them a haircut, some fatigues and a drill sergeant and now they're settling gang scores within the ranks.

I had a knee jerk reaction.

Well, that's what I'm asking people to stop doing.

BTW, how many of those 125,000 have been involuntarily discharged? Given a new chance in life, just how many have reverted to the old way?

Don't know. Why don't you look that up and report back? All TT did was ask if this situation is a problem.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

The felons don't stop being thugs just because you give them a haircut, some fatigues and a drill sergeant and now they're settling gang scores within the ranks.

That's a huge stretch. One guy dies during gang initiation, which is against regulations BTW, and now our bases are suddenly turning into Compton? Nothing could be further from the truth. If you spent time on a military base, I think you'd be surprised at just how effective that haircut, fatigues, and drill sergeant (what we refer to discipline) are in changing people.

Believe what you want, but this type of activity isn't happening to the point where we have a problem with it.

BTW, retention has been great and all the branches of the armed forces have met their recruiting goals more than not. Some of the prior disqualifiers have been loosened, but we don't have an open door policy to felonious criminals. It's just not happening.

Take it for what it's worth.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

The felons don't stop being thugs just because you give them a haircut, some fatigues and a drill sergeant and now they're settling gang scores within the ranks.

That's a huge stretch. One guy dies during gang initiation, which is against regulations BTW, and now are bases are suddenly mirror images of Compton? Nothing could be further from the truth. If you spent time on a military base, I think you'd be surprised at just how effective that haircut, fatigues, and drill sergeant (what we refer to discipline) are in changing people.

Believe what you want, but this type of activity isn't happening to the point where we have a problem with it.

BTW, retention has been great and all the branches of the armed forces have met their recruiting goals more than not. Some of the prior disqualifiers have been loosened, but we don't have an open door policy to felonious criminals. It's just not happening.

Take it for what it's worth.

It isn't one guy dying that's prompting the worries about this. From the linked article:

Evidence of gang culture and gang activity in the military is increasing so much an FBI report calls it "a threat to law enforcement and national security." The signs are chilling: Marines in gang attire on Parris Island; paratroopers flashing gang hand signs at a nightclub near Ft. Bragg; infantrymen showing-off gang tattoos at Ft. Hood.

"It's obvious that many of these people do not give up their gang affiliations," said Hunter Glass, a retired police detective in Fayetteville, North Carolina, the home of Ft. Bragg and the 82nd Airborne. He monitors gang activity at the base and across the military.

"If we weren't in the middle of fighting a war, yes, I think the military would have a lot more control over this issue," Glass said. "But with a war going on, I think it's very difficult to do."

Gang activity clues are appearing in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. Gang graffiti is sprayed on blast walls – even on Humvees. Kilroy – the doodle made famous by U.S. soldiers in World War II – is here, but so is the star emblem of the Gangster Disciples.

The soldier who took photos if the graffiti told CBS News that he's been warned he's as good as dead if he ever returns to Iraq.

This is just a sampling, not an exhaustive report, but if the FBI is concerned, I'd take it to mean it's more than one kid dying from a gang initiation beatdown.

And if the military isn't having trouble meeting its recruiting goals, is that because they've lowered the bar too much? Or if they'd make it even without admitting the problem children, why bother to lower the bar at all?

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Sorry man, I just am not seeing it as this crisis CBS want us to believe it is. I'm not saying it isn't happening; it obviously is, but I think the writer of this piece is being just a tad melodramatic.

Remember about 10 years ago, the military (especially the Army) was supposed infested with Ku Klux Klansmen? If I remember correctly, it was supposedly so bad that unit mobilization readiness was affected. Turned out not to be as bad as the journalists had us believe.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Well, I certainly hope you're right, but the FBI having concerns gives me concern whether it was CBS, Fox News or just you telling me about it.

[Tigermike 3,053]

Anyone that has had any dealings with military police (all branches - Army in particular) knows activity like that described will be noticed, observed and dealt with and will be nipped in the bud and will not last.

[AFTiger 282]

Here is part of the problem:

A college student was arrested Sunday in the slashing of 42 tires on 13 government vehicles in an Army recruiting office parking lot, saying he was angry about the war in Iraq, authorities said.

Following a number of calls about a man wearing black and slashing tires, two deputies stopped a 19-year-old college student from Colorado as he tried to run from the lot shortly after midnight Sunday, a Kitsap County sheriff’s office report said.

The man put up his hands, dropped a knife and, after being made to lie on the ground and being read his rights, asked, “Is this the time where I can confess?” deputies wrote.

On a portable breath test, his blood alcohol level registered .168, more than twice the legal threshold for intoxication, according to the report.

He told deputies he decided to slash the tires of Army recruiting vehicles because he “hated the military and the government and the war we were in.”

Link

He probably wont be punished, but if he had slashed a Koran......

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Here is part of the problem:

A college student was arrested Sunday in the slashing of 42 tires on 13 government vehicles in an Army recruiting office parking lot, saying he was angry about the war in Iraq, authorities said.

Following a number of calls about a man wearing black and slashing tires, two deputies stopped a 19-year-old college student from Colorado as he tried to run from the lot shortly after midnight Sunday, a Kitsap County sheriff’s office report said.

The man put up his hands, dropped a knife and, after being made to lie on the ground and being read his rights, asked, “Is this the time where I can confess?” deputies wrote.

On a portable breath test, his blood alcohol level registered .168, more than twice the legal threshold for intoxication, according to the report.

He told deputies he decided to slash the tires of Army recruiting vehicles because he “hated the military and the government and the war we were in.”

Link

He probably wont be punished, but if he had slashed a Koran......

While this is a problem, I'm not sure how it has any relevance to the problem we're discussing on this thread. How is this story relevant to the discussion at hand?