The Herd talkin Bama Football

[aubiescottie 1]

Just was out for lunch and had Colin Cowheard on XM talkin about Bama and specifically Saban...don't normally listen because Colin is basically a loudmouth but I was in a buddy's car and he had it on and thought this was pretty good.

He had some sound bite from a recent press conference where one reporter asked him how they have 91 scholarship players when they (obv) can only have 85. Saban goes absolutely bonkers and says its nobody's business how they are going to work it out, and don't give him this crap about the 'fans need to know" because they don't, and don't ask him questions for writing an article and he won't call [this reporter] you for help with football.

Colin went on to say that he thought Saban was a very good football coach, but was NOT a miracle worker, citing how long it took to turn things around at MSU and LSU, and comparing him to Urban Meyer who has seemingly performed miracles (Utah, Bowling Green). Colin went a little further and said (basically what we already know) bama will be improved this year, but isn't going to compete for any sort of title, especially with JPW running the show.

*Sorry there's already a thread devoted to this in the woodshed, mods feel free to do what you do.

[WinCrimson 61]

MSU was on probation when he arrived and has traditionally been a doormat. The 360 that program took under his control is something they've yet to do since the day he left.

He won the SEC title in year two at LSU. Is that not good enough?

[AUloggerhead 2,241]

MSU was on probation when he arrived and has traditionally been a doormat. The 360 that program took under his control is something they've yet to do since the day he left.

He won the SEC title in year two at LSU. Is that not good enough?

He had one year at MSU where he compiled a 9-2 record. One. The other years were not marginally different than the W/L records they're putting up now. Hardly, a "360 turnaround." Maybe, the real truth is that he left town at the right time? Incidentally, he was also an early recruiter of one Albert Means in 1999, before he left MSU. {Hmmm ... well, he does have a reputation as a "relentless" recruiter.}

At LSU, he did have some early success (with DiNardo's recruits) but he also was losing 3 SEC contests per season until they lucked up & got to face Chokelahoma in the BS title game. $abun's last year at LSU was a 9-3 record. We won't even talk about his Dolphins' fiasco.

I'm not expecting the facts to keep you inbreds from continuing to deify the man, but just once I'd like to see an honest assesment of "$ the Coach," as an Xs & Os type. Or, even as a game-day strategist. I cannot think of one instance where his game-day acumen or innovation made any difference. Can you? What he seems to be is a recruiter of the 1st magnitude and he wins by assembling more raw talent than the other guy. Which, when you think it through -- is exactly what I think is responsible for Phillip Fulmer's success at UT. In my eyes, that makes $abun a virtual "Mini-me" of Phillip Fulmer.

[lca408 366]

Saban is a good coach. He may be a great coach, but he's not the best coach in the SEC. He's had one double digit win season during his head coaching career. Granted, its tough to win in the SEC, but I don't really understand why people bring that up when the Sabans and Tubervilles of the world can only manage 8 or 9 wins in a given season, and yet when Les Miles has averaged 11+ wins a season in 3 seasons, he's not doing enough with his talent.

LSwho is very talented, and yes, Miles was playing with mostly Saban recruits in these past three years, but talent doesn't make a team. How many years have Tennessee and Florida State gotten top ten recruiting classes year after year, and cannot accomplish what teams like Auburn can accomplish? Miles isn't the best coach in the SEC either, but I just don't understand why you can't give him credit for what he's done. We always talk about the SEC being the toughest conference in the nation, and when Les goes 11-2 in his first year, we criticize him for not doing more?

Sorry, thats a little off topic, but I can't stand it when people don't give credit where credit is due. I don't like Les Miles either, but I think his SEC record speaks for itself. Saban has shown some flashes of greatness, mostly in 2003, but other than that, he has shown himself to be a slightly above average coach. I think its funny when Bama fans talk about his 2001 title, which admittedly was an accomplishment, yet refuse to give Miles credit for his wins. Saban won with DiNardo's recruits in 2001. If Miles' wins are really Saban's recruiting genius, could we award the 2001 SEC title to DiNardo?

Ryan

[WarTiger 3,909]

MSU was on probation when he arrived and has traditionally been a doormat. The 360 that program took under his control is something they've yet to do since the day he left.

He won the SEC title in year two at LSU. Is that not good enough?

I need a definition from you of what you consider a 360? Looking back at saban's record at MSU, it doesn't appear he did much of anything to crow about...

He took over a team that had gone 0-11 the year before...so there's really no way to go but up...

1995 - 6-5-1

1996 - 6-6

1997 - 7-5

1998 - 6-6

1999 - 10-2

he bolts and the team then went 5-6 the following year. Exactly where is this 360 that you keep talking about? Must have a very superficial definition of turning a program around. Does one season really constitute a 360?

[lca408 366]

My mistake. He has won 10 or more games twice in his head coaching career.

Ryan

[BamaGrad03 0]

Saban is a good coach. He may be a great coach, but he's not the best coach in the SEC. He's had one double digit win season during his head coaching career. Granted, its tough to win in the SEC, but I don't really understand why people bring that up when the Sabans and Tubervilles of the world can only manage 8 or 9 wins in a given season, and yet when Les Miles has averaged 11+ wins a season in 3 seasons, he's not doing enough with his talent.

LSwho is very talented, and yes, Miles was playing with mostly Saban recruits in these past three years, but talent doesn't make a team. How many years have Tennessee and Florida State gotten top ten recruiting classes year after year, and cannot accomplish what teams like Auburn can accomplish? Miles isn't the best coach in the SEC either, but I just don't understand why you can't give him credit for what he's done. We always talk about the SEC being the toughest conference in the nation, and when Les goes 11-2 in his first year, we criticize him for not doing more?

Sorry, thats a little off topic, but I can't stand it when people don't give credit where credit is due. I don't like Les Miles either, but I think his SEC record speaks for itself. Saban has shown some flashes of greatness, mostly in 2003, but other than that, he has shown himself to be a slightly above average coach. I think its funny when Bama fans talk about his 2001 title, which admittedly was an accomplishment, yet refuse to give Miles credit for his wins. Saban won with DiNardo's recruits in 2001. If Miles' wins are really Saban's recruiting genius, could we award the 2001 SEC title to DiNardo?

Ryan

So you think Les Miles is a better coach than CTT?

[The Prowler 1]

MSU was on probation when he arrived and has traditionally been a doormat. The 360 that program took under his control is something they've yet to do since the day he left.

He won the SEC title in year two at LSU. Is that not good enough?

I need a definition from you of what you consider a 360? Looking back at saban's record at MSU, it doesn't appear he did much of anything to crow about...

He took over a team that had gone 0-11 the year before...so there's really no way to go but up...

1995 - 6-5-1

1996 - 6-6

1997 - 7-5

1998 - 6-6

1999 - 10-2

he bolts and the team then went 5-6 the following year. Exactly where is this 360 that you keep talking about? Must have a very superficial definition of turning a program around. Does one season really constitute a 360?

Let me 'splain it to y'all....When monkey man got to MSU, they were Horrible...he then had the program FIVE YEARS later do a 180 and become a pretty darn good program, but when he left (from what I've heard was because of the impending Albert Means ordeal) the program did another 180. And now, it's back to being mediocre....a Complete 360.

[PigskinPat 2,579]

MSU was on probation when he arrived and has traditionally been a doormat. The 360 that program took under his control is something they've yet to do since the day he left.

He won the SEC title in year two at LSU. Is that not good enough?

I need a definition from you of what you consider a 360? Looking back at saban's record at MSU, it doesn't appear he did much of anything to crow about...

He took over a team that had gone 0-11 the year before...so there's really no way to go but up...

1995 - 6-5-1

1996 - 6-6

1997 - 7-5

1998 - 6-6

1999 - 10-2

he bolts and the team then went 5-6 the following year. Exactly where is this 360 that you keep talking about? Must have a very superficial definition of turning a program around. Does one season really constitute a 360?

Let me 'splain it to y'all....When monkey man got to MSU, they were Horrible...he then had the program FIVE YEARS later do a 180 and become a pretty darn good program, but when he left (from what I've heard was because of the impending Albert Means ordeal) the program did another 180. And now, it's back to being mediocre....a Complete 360.

You stole my thunder! A 360 only means you're right back where you started from!!

[aubiescottie 1]

I think some of y'all are missing the point of the post (Colin's Opinions)

A. Saban is a jerk

B. Saban is a very good football coach, and an excellent recruiter. Thats why it takes him a little while to turn programs around-not the best with X's and O's, but gets the talent. In 2001 LSU and Saban fell ass-backwards into the championship. 2001 was a weird year all together, with schedule changes due to 9/11, and the SEC West was terrible. We were just starting to get our feet under us, Bama was a complete disaster, Ole Miss was basically the second best team. LSU somehow beat highly favored UT in the Champ game after getting smoked by them earlier in the year.

[mcgufcm 4,107]

The biggest thing that happened to LSU in 2001 was Auburn beating Florida in Jordan-Hare. The Gators were the most talented team in the conference that year hands. down. The two losses they had (at Auburn and at UT in the late season rescheduled game) were huge upsets. If we'd run our game back 10 times, we would've lost the next ten.

That said, LSU was playing the best ball in the conference at the end of the season and lucked out with a bad SEC West year. Bama was bad. The wheels fell off Auburn's wagon mid-season. Ole Miss was decent, but Eli was young. Arkansas was pretty average. Most importantly, MSU (the preseason favorite in every single magazine in the country) was complete crap from start to finish. That team was coming off a West title in 98, 10-wins in 99, and a late season collapse in 2000 when they had dominated the West the full season... 2001 was supposed to be their year, but they only won 3 games. Thus, LSU wins the West.

$aban is a good coach. I can't stand Cowherd so I refuse to give him credit for anything. Bama will get better with him. And for the record, I'd rather have $aban is I was trying to rebuild (or just build in the first place), but I'd rather have Miles if the foundation is already poured. I'd rather have Tubby over both b/c he has built a team AND had prolonged success (and he's less of an ahole or a sideshow, respectively).

[Nay4AU 2]

MSU was on probation when he arrived and has traditionally been a doormat. The 360 that program took under his control is something they've yet to do since the day he left.

He won the SEC title in year two at LSU. Is that not good enough?

I need a definition from you of what you consider a 360? Looking back at saban's record at MSU, it doesn't appear he did much of anything to crow about...

He took over a team that had gone 0-11 the year before...so there's really no way to go but up...

1995 - 6-5-1

1996 - 6-6

1997 - 7-5

1998 - 6-6

1999 - 10-2

he bolts and the team then went 5-6 the following year. Exactly where is this 360 that you keep talking about? Must have a very superficial definition of turning a program around. Does one season really constitute a 360?

Actually he would have been 9-2 in 1999. He didn’t coach the ball game because he left for LSU. The interim HC won the game and got the job as HC. I can’t think of his name right now but believe he’s the newest addition to Saban’s staff.

[lca408 366]

So you think Les Miles is a better coach than CTT?

No. Not necessarily. I don't necessarily think Miles is a better coach than Saban. I just think that when people talk about the best coaches in the league, they need to include Miles with the likes of Tuberville, Saban, Richt, and Meyer. He's done about as well as any of those coaches could do. Certainly he's come up short at times, and he was very lucky to get into the BCS championship game this year, but again, talent can't win every football game, especially in the SEC. He must be doing something right, to win 11+ games a year.

If Tuberville, or Saban, or Meyer were in his position, they'd probably do about as good, but not much better than Miles.

Ryan

[BamaGrad03 0]

I just think that when people talk about the best coaches in the league, they need to include Miles with the likes of Tuberville, Saban, Richt, and Meyer

To me, there's one name that doesn't belong on that list...and it's Miles.

[AUloggerhead 2,241]

I just think that when people talk about the best coaches in the league, they need to include Miles with the likes of Tuberville, Saban, Richt, and Meyer

To me, there's one name that doesn't belong on that list...and it's Miles.

I will reserve judgement on Miles for now. One HC name in a similar situation that comes to mind: Larry Coker at the U.

[mcgufcm 4,107]

Miles doesn't remind me of Coker. Larry's record declined every single year at the U except 2004 to 2005 (he was 9-3 both years). Miles had his best year in the third season, AND he's kinda shown that his ceiling is a couple of losses in a given year. If you can't do better with one of these past three years... I question whether the ceiling is a lot higher.

[lca408 366]

I just think that when people talk about the best coaches in the league, they need to include Miles with the likes of Tuberville, Saban, Richt, and Meyer

To me, there's one name that doesn't belong on that list...and it's Miles.

Why? Please indulge me. What has he done or not done to warrant such prejudice?

[BamaGrad03 0]

I just think that when people talk about the best coaches in the league, they need to include Miles with the likes of Tuberville, Saban, Richt, and Meyer

To me, there's one name that doesn't belong on that list...and it's Miles.

Why? Please indulge me. What has he done or not done to warrant such prejudice?

It's not prejudice. I think he's a good coach who's not in the SEC elite. I think he walked into a VERY favorable position at LSU with a team stacked full of NFL prospects. His in game coaching leaves me underwhelmed, and I'd like him to coach a few more years in the SEC with his own players before I'm ready to knight him the leagues best.

Guys like CTT, Saban, Richt have proven themselves through lean years. They've shown that they can turn programs around, and that they can be shrewd in gameday decisions. I think Meyer is a douche, and a bit of a snake, but his track record for winning isn't really arguable.

[OldNewby 27]

In four years at Oklahoma State, Les Miles went 28-21 (regular season). Home: 18-8, away: 9-10, neutral: 1-3. 2001: 4-7; 2002: 8-5; 2003: 9-4; 2004: 7-5. Four year average: 7 wins - 5.2 losses.

Granted, Oklahoma State is not LSU.

link: http://www.okstate.com/pdf4/81822.pdf?ATCL...p;DB_OEM_ID=200 page 13

[SouthLink02 8]

Miles won the SEC last year. He showed me he can do that and that is impressive

With that said, the HARD time for him will come this year with a LOT of his own kids now starting

If he wins from here on out, it is because of HIM and his staff

[mcgufcm 4,107]

I got into a conversation about coaching last year. My buddies and I decided that coaching really broke down into a number of things, and you don't have to be great at all of them to be a great coach. The question, however, is if you can be really really bad at one and still be great. Here was our list:

Recruiting (Miles has looked pretty dang solid here)

In-Game Strategy (he's a total disaster here)

Gameplanning (his teams are rarely even unprepared so this is pretty good)

Motivation (he seems pretty good here as well)

Tone Setting (this is what he's best at maybe in the whole conference)

I guess the stuff breaks down kinda like this: recruiting is self-explanatory; in-game strategy is getting your players settled after bad stuff, clock management, seeing weaknesses you didn't expect and exploiting them; gameplanning is how you prepare the team and whether you found stuff to take advantage of early; motivation is getting the players ready from week to week and keeping them up during the game; tone setting is about being the face of the program and getting the players to buy into the tone you set (for Auburn is workmanlike, for LSU its gusto and balls to the wall, for UGA last year it was the thuggish ruggish bone ).

I think there are other parts to being a head man (fundraising, setting the off-field tone, graduating players, etc.), but those things are the way I measure a coach's worth strictly as a football coach.

To me, Miles has proven himself in 1 and 5, looks pretty good in 3 and 4, is utterly embarrassing at 2.

[lca408 366]

It's not prejudice. I think he's a good coach who's not in the SEC elite. I think he walked into a VERY favorable position at LSU with a team stacked full of NFL prospects. His in game coaching leaves me underwhelmed, and I'd like him to coach a few more years in the SEC with his own players before I'm ready to knight him the leagues best.

Guys like CTT, Saban, Richt have proven themselves through lean years. They've shown that they can turn programs around, and that they can be shrewd in gameday decisions. I think Meyer is a douche, and a bit of a snake, but his track record for winning isn't really arguable.

There's no question he walked into a favorable position at LSwho. But, he has proven himself to be an excellent recruiter. He has also shown that he can win games consistently. Granted, his in-game strategy is absolutely bonkers, but I think his attitude is what drives his players to excel. I thought losing Russell at QB would really hurt them in 2007, but Flynn passed with fluttering (not flying) colors. He loses some damn fine playmakers, yet turns his new talent into winners just as quickly.

With the conference as crazy and tough as it was in 2007, I think it makes it that much more remarkable that Miles was able to win the way he did, even though it involved an incredible amount of luck. Winning 11 games in your first season with great talent may be suspect, but going 11-2 and 12-2 the following years would indicate a trend. I think Miles has proven himself as a top coach at the moment. He will impress me more if he wins 10 or 11 games again this year, which I'm not sure he will be able to do, but I see no reason why he should be considered a below average or even an average coach with his record in the league.

Ryan

[DKW 86 7,429]

Guys, just for the lurkers on this board can we make one error correction? A 360 degree turn would mean that you are going in the same direction you were going in before. IOW, a 360 would mean you have made no progress as far as turning things around.

A 180 would mean you have reversed course with the problem. Please folks, there are high school dropouts that know this. We are supposed ot be a more educated crowd here, no matter what school we support.

[WinCrimson 61]

Guys, just for the lurkers on this board can we make one error correction? A 360 degree turn would mean that you are going in the same direction you were going in before. IOW, a 360 would mean you have made no progress as far as turning things around.

A 180 would mean you have reversed course with the problem. Please folks, there are high school dropouts that know this. We are supposed ot be a more educated crowd here, no matter what school we support.

Hindsight's 50/50.

[WarTim 3,456]

Bama acts like they were the first to turn out a lot for a spring game.

i would think 92,000+ qualifies as "a lot".

....."IT is what IT is".......... Auight?