No butts at the beach!

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Titan,

Are you saying all people that smoke are idiots?

Pretty much. At least they were idiots for starting in the first place...knowing how damaging it is to their health and how addictive it is. That's pretty idiotic.

[tiger88 934]

Why so judgemental?

I know several who smoke and I wouldn't call them idiots for starting. Almost everyone starts young when you still think you're invincible.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Why so judgemental?

I know several who smoke and I wouldn't call them idiots for starting. Almost everyone starts young when you still think you're invincible.

I know several who smoke too. That doesn't prevent me from making an honest assessment of the relative stupidity of a certain action. I'll soften it a little for you. Some smokers are just idiots. Law of averages and all. Some are people of otherwise average to above average intelligence that have made a supremely idiotic decision in this instance.

Why do I say that? Let's look at what we know:

Smoking: Pros and Cons

Pros

1. Nicotine has a pleasing, calming effect on the central nervous system.

2. It satisfies some people's oral fixation better than chewing gum or mints.

3. Seems to have some weight loss effects.

4. Helps you look cool (if your friends are into that sort of thing).

5. Some find the feeling of the smoke being breathed in pleasing.

Cons

1. You're almost certain to get lung cancer with likely result being radiation and chemo treatments and/or possible need for a lung transplant. 87% of all lung cancer cases are caused by smoking.

2. You are a likely candidate for emphysema. 80-90% of all cases are caused by smoking. You are likely to need either a lung transplant or serious lung surgery to remove the most seriously diseased portions of your lung(s).

3. Though it is doing the destructive things mentioned above (plus a whole host of other damaging things to you), it is extremely hard to quit because of the highly addictive properties of nicotine. Most people who do end up quitting do not succeed on the first try and have to resort to costly treatments such as nicotine gum, patches, or antidepressants such as Zyban. And even then, success is no guarantee because of how physically and psychologically addictive they are.

4. Your breath stinks. And if you think that being liberal with the mouthwash, teeth-brushing, and mints/gum takes it away, think again. A non-smoker can usually smell it on your breath despite your best efforts.

5. Your clothes stink. Cigarette smoke permeates clothing and requires one to spend a lot more time and money either washing or dry cleaning one's clothes...unless you just don't care that you smell.

6. Your hair stinks. This is especially true of women who tend of have longer hair that captures more of the smoke.

7. If you smoke in your car or home, both stink. Non-smokers can tell almost instantly. And they just love it when they ride in your car or sit on your sofa and leave stinking like cigarettes even though you didn't smoke while they were there.

8. Which brings me to this point: it damages your sense of smell. You don't even realize you and your stuff stinks as bad as it does because cigarette smoke dulls your sense of smell. This also affects the way food tastes because smell is a key component of one's sense of taste.

9. It's expensive. Cigarettes are not a cheap habit. Some spend hundreds of dollars a month on this habit...a habit that is slowly, but surely killing them.

I could go on, but I think the point is made. You have a product that has some psychological benefits and a few mildly pleasing physical effects balanced by overwhelming destructive effects and premature death, plus numerous negative social effects. The scale is severely tipped toward the cons.

Bottom line: taking up smoking is one of the dumbest things a human being with a working brain could do. The good thing is, unlike lung cancer or emphysema, this disease of stupidity is instantly curable upon quitting smoking. You suddenly become one of the smartest individuals around.

[tiger88 934]

I see your point. I just don't agree with the level of idiocy you have raised smokers to.

A small part of me agrees with what some say about " yeah it may take ten years off your life, but it's the 10 worst ones.

To me it's no worse for someone to die a little early of cancer than to die a slow painful death due to "natural causes". I have seen people live saintly lives only to whither away and suffer for years and years til they finally pass away. If smoking floats someones boat then I won't be the one calling them an idiot for doing what pleases them while depriving them of some of their senile years.

All that being said I am very glad that I don't smoke.

[Argo 8]

I see your point. I just don't agree with the level of idiocy you have raised smokers to.

A small part of me agrees with what some say about " yeah it may take ten years off your life, but it's the 10 worst ones.

To me it's no worse for someone to die a little early of cancer than to die a slow painful death due to "natural causes". I have seen people live saintly lives only to whither away and suffer for years and years til they finally pass away. If smoking floats someones boat then I won't be the one calling them an idiot for doing what pleases them while depriving them of some of their senile years.

All that being said I am very glad that I don't smoke.

Not to disagree with you completely, but my mother smokes and she has done nothing but bring those senile ages closer. My mother is 44 and is in worse shape than my 89 year old grandmother. Seriously. The only difference is, my grandmother hasn't smoked, and my mom has. If I had a choice of what road to go down,(and I do) I would rather live to see 89. I doubt my mom will live to be 50. Also, she can't be around her 2 yr old grandson because he is allergic to smoke. It's a shame when cigs take priority in that matter. Like I said though, this is a certain situation, and I'm not using it to disagree with your remarks completely.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

I see your point. I just don't agree with the level of idiocy you have raised smokers to.

A small part of me agrees with what some say about " yeah it may take ten years off your life, but it's the 10 worst ones.

To me it's no worse for someone to die a little early of cancer than to die a slow painful death due to "natural causes". I have seen people live saintly lives only to whither away and suffer for years and years til they finally pass away. If smoking floats someones boat then I won't be the one calling them an idiot for doing what pleases them while depriving them of some of their senile years.

All that being said I am very glad that I don't smoke.

Oh, your post made me realize that I forgot a huge con:

Smoking makes you multiple times more likely to die of a heart attack, even if you are otherwise healthy (such as not being overweight, not eating a high cholestorol/fat diet, not having a history of it in your family etc.). So, it's certainly no guarantee that you only lose "the worst 10 years". My stepdad died in his mid forties. Yes, he was probably bigger than he should have been (though he was by no means "obese"...he was just a big, tall guy with a tad too much weight on him). And yes, he could have eaten better. But I think he'd still be here if he hadn't smoked.

It's an idiotic decision. There isn't one good thing that isn't severely outweighed by an humongous bad one.

Oh, and smokers pay more for health insurance because of it too.

[tiger88 934]

I think that most people who die very early from smoking are those who most likely would have dropped early from something else if they hadn't smoked. Either that or they are one of those who smoked three packs a day or more, every day. I think the average everyday smoker would lose about 10 years give or take a few.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

I think that most people who die very early from smoking are those who most likely would have dropped early from something else if they hadn't smoked. Either that or they are one of those who smoked three packs a day or more, every day. I think the average everyday smoker would lose about 10 years give or take a few.

That belief doesn't line up with the research. A smoker's risk of heart attack is more than twice that of a non-smoker's. Cigarette smoking is the biggest risk factor for sudden cardiac death: smokers have two to four times the risk of nonsmokers. Smokers who have a heart attack are more likely to die and die suddenly (within an hour) than are nonsmokers. That's regardless of other risk factors. If you extract just the people who have a bad diet, or only have hereditary factors against them, etc. and add smoking to it, the increase in risk factor is the same within that group.

Sorry, but taking up smoking is an indefensible decision. It's instant admission into the dummy category.

[tiger88 934]

I think we've established that smoking will likely lead to an early demise.

Smoking is a defensible habit for many. I'm not saying they have the worlds best argument, just that to some it makes sense.

[Tigermike 3,029]

I think we've established that smoking will likely lead to an early demise.

Smoking is a defensible habit for many. I'm not saying they have the worlds best argument, just that to some it makes sense.

I don't think it's a matter of making sense, most if not all smokers either don't want to quit or are just too lazy to try. No matter what, they must ignore many reams of information letting them know it is bad for their health. Not only their health but their families as well.

[tiger88 934]

I don't smoke and wouldn't want anyone I really care for to do it either. I just try to be empathetic whenever possible and I am getting better and better at being non judgemental. I mean being judgemental is just the ego's way of feeding itself isn't it?

[Argo 8]

I don't smoke and wouldn't want anyone I really care for to do it either. I just try to be empathetic whenever possible and I am getting better and better at being non judgemental. I mean being judgemental is just the ego's way of feeding itself isn't it?

Are you a liberal?

[TitanTiger 20,482]

I wasn't attributing a motive to it. I'm just calling a spade a spade. That's not judgmental, that's just brutal truth. I've done some supremely stupid things in my life too and I don't mind someone calling it what it was: stupid, idiotic, moronic, etc.

And I am empathetic...especially to older people who started smoking before the Surgeon General warnings and such. How hard must it be to stop after all these years. But with all the information we have now, I simply don't understand why someone would get started now. I feel sorry for people trying to quit because I know from watching family members struggle with it that it's very hard to do.

[tiger88 934]

I don't smoke and wouldn't want anyone I really care for to do it either. I just try to be empathetic whenever possible and I am getting better and better at being non judgemental. I mean being judgemental is just the ego's way of feeding itself isn't it?

Are you a liberal?

Only when it comes to some personal issues. I am pretty conservative overall politically.

Did something bother you about the statement you quoted.

My point was that someone can recognize negative behavior such as smoking and that it is not good for most people to do it and can even tell people how they feel about it. To then label that person an idiot or dummy is being judgemental and is an attempt to make you feel better about yourself or pad your ego. I am judgemental too often myself, but I am working on it.

Your question of "Are you a liberal" is a perfect ex. of the ego hard at work, (assuming you are a conservative).

[Argo 8]

Actually, I meant to put some in there. Didn't mean anything personal. Just making a wise-crack to the statement

I just try to be empathetic whenever possible and I am getting better and better at being non judgemental. I mean being judgemental is just the ego's way of feeding itself isn't it?

It really sounds like the political correctness that the world is trying to shove down our throats.

p.s. I'm sure correctness isn't a word, so don't bother correcting me!

[tiger88 934]

Either way, I wasn't offended tf24.

Just notice the distinction I am making. Their is nothing wrong, imo, with having and stating an opinion. However, when you use that opinion to label others in a negative way that is the ego asserting itself.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

My point was that someone can recognize negative behavior such as smoking and that it is not good for most people to do it and can even tell people how they feel about it. To then label that person an idiot or dummy is being judgemental and is an attempt to make you feel better about yourself or pad your ego. I am judgemental too often myself, but I am working on it.

I think you're overblowing things a tad. It's not hard to see some things as idiotic or dumb. It really isn't. It doesn't mean the person is a moral reprobate. It just means they did something stupid. Other examples of stupidity (temporary or otherwise) that I have no problem stating as such:

--Antagonizing a dog that's big enough to hurt you.

--Picking a fight with someone who can kick your ass.

--Sniffing glue.

--Driving 90 mph through a residential neighborhood.

--Diving head first into water you haven't checked the depth of first.

--Walking outside with a big metal pole during an electrical storm.

I mean, there are some things where the risk and potential harm is well-known and common horse sense would tell you to avoid at all costs. If you still choose to do those things when you don't have to, then that is stupid. That's not judgmental, that's just telling it like it is.

[Ranger12 46]

Okay, I am finally going to chime in on this. Getting back to the original part of the post, if you want to keep sucking on death sticks, go ahead and do it by all means. Nobody can stop you. Just don't make me breath your crap and I should not have to go to a public place like a beach and see nasty butts around everywhere. That was probably the one thing that bugged me in the military since alot of soldiers, especially veterans, smoked and I had no choice to be around it alot of times. However, military bases did stay clean because most soldiers put their butts where they needed to be if they were on base.

[tiger88 934]

My point was that someone can recognize negative behavior such as smoking and that it is not good for most people to do it and can even tell people how they feel about it. To then label that person an idiot or dummy is being judgemental and is an attempt to make you feel better about yourself or pad your ego. I am judgemental too often myself, but I am working on it.

I think you're overblowing things a tad. It's not hard to see some things as idiotic or dumb. It really isn't. It doesn't mean the person is a moral reprobate. It just means they did something stupid. Other examples of stupidity (temporary or otherwise) that I have no problem stating as such:

--Antagonizing a dog that's big enough to hurt you.

--Picking a fight with someone who can kick your ass.

--Sniffing glue.

--Driving 90 mph through a residential neighborhood.

--Diving head first into water you haven't checked the depth of first.

--Walking outside with a big metal pole during an electrical storm.

I mean, there are some things where the risk and potential harm is well-known and common horse sense would tell you to avoid at all costs. If you still choose to do those things when you don't have to, then that is stupid. That's not judgmental, that's just telling it like it is.

Anytime you label someone or some act as stupid or idiotic you are doing so to feel better about yourself. I do it all the time myself. They are dumber therefor we are smarter. Whether we like to admit it or not we are passing judgement, be it a small or large judgement, and padding our ego. jmo

BTW I don't equate any of the examples you provided with smoking. Those are all examples of flirting with suicide/instant death , even the dog or the fight could kill you. When someone smokes, although it is very likely, there isn't a guarantee that they will lose one day off of their life because of it. There is certainly no imminent risk of death or extreme harm as in the examples you listed. Lumping these acts together w/ smoking makes very little sense, imo.

Anyways, I agree to disagree. I don't think people who smoke necessarily do so because of the temporary or permanent influence of idiocy or stupidity. You do. Did I at least get that right ?

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Anytime you label someone or some act as stupid or idiotic you are doing so to feel better about yourself. I do it all the time myself. They are dumber therefor we are smarter. Whether we like to admit it or not we are passing judgement, be it a small or large judgement, and padding our ego. jmo

What if I label something I did as "stupid"? Am I doing so to feel better than myself?

BTW I don't equate any of the examples you provided with smoking. Those are all examples of flirting with suicide/instant death , even the dog or the fight could kill you. When someone smokes, although it is very likely, there isn't a guarantee that they will lose one day off of their life because of it. There is certainly no imminent risk of death or extreme harm as in the examples you listed. Lumping these acts together w/ smoking makes very little sense, imo.

Well, one of the reasons I mixed it up with the dog and the fight was that I wasn't considering those things as death inducing...just painful and obviously dumb.

Anyways, I agree to disagree. I don't think people who smoke necessarily do so because of the temporary or permanent influence of idiocy or stupidity. You do. Did I at least get that right ?

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You did get that last part right. I think the well-known health, financial, and social negatives that come with smoking make taking that habit up a particularly dumb decision. It might be different if we weren't well-versed as a society to these risks. But anyway, we don't see eye to eye on this one.

So, let me start another brouhaha: WHY DO SMOKERS THINK THE WORLD IS THEIR PERSONAL ASHTRAY?!? I get so sick and tired of seeing people throw cigarette butts out their car windows, throw them on the ground and stamp them out and just leave them there, etc. Does nicotine affect the receptors in the brain that enable people to be considerate?

[tiger88 934]

I'm 100% w/ you on that one. it makes my blood boil when I see someone flicking butts out the window or while out in public.

I live out in the country and it is not unusual to be behind a car and have them chunk a whole fast food bag out the window. Thats even worse.