HEROES DON'T SHOUT

[Tigermike 3,053]

HEROES DON'T SHOUT

By RALPH PETERS

August 24, 2004 -- JOHN Kerry went to Vietnam. Voluntarily. Given that President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and every chicken-hawk in the coop did all they could to avoid getting the mud of Indochina on their loafers, his service should make Kerry the election-year choice of those who serve, or once served, in our country's uniform.

Instead, military men and women are overwhelmingly suspicious of Kerry. Many despise him so intensely that their emotions verge on hatred.

What went wrong?

There are three big problems with Kerry from the standpoint of those who are proud of their military service. And one of those reservations has been overlooked entirely by the parade of talking heads, so few of whom have served in uniform themselves.

As far as the swift-boat controversy goes, it's likely to remain a he-said-she-said issue through Election Day. The red flag to military men and women is that so many swift-boat veterans have come out against John Kerry. Not just one. Not 10. Dozens upon dozens.

This is as rare as humility in the Hamptons. Vets stick together. Kerry likes to play up his "band of brothers" image, but if he's got a band, his opponents have a symphony. And even if the first violinist turns out to be a "Republican stooge," it's nonetheless stunning for so many vets to denounce a former comrade publicly. It just doesn't happen unless something's really wrong.

As for Kerry's support from his own crew, that's normal military psychology. You get the most objective view of a junior leader from his peers — the other swift-boat commanders (and their crews) who had to fear a weak link in the chain.

I'm not a Vietnam vet, so I don't have as big an emotional dog in the fight as those who served so bravely and so thanklessly in Indochina. But some values are universal among those who wear or wore our country's uniform.

Yes, Kerry deserves credit for serving, whether he volunteered out of patriotism or because he had cast himself as the "next JFK," with a swift boat subbing for PT-109.

The first show-stopper problem with Kerry began after his return. He had the right to protest against the war — more than most, since he had served himself. But he had not earned the right to lie about the honorable service of millions of others.

Kerry's lies — and they were nothing but lies — about "routine" atrocities committed by average American soldiers and sanctioned by the chain of command were sheer political opportunism. Kerry knew that none of the charges were true.

He'd been there. He may have done some stupid things himself, but atrocities were statistically very rare. Contrary to the myths cherished by film-makers, American troops behaved remarkably well under dreadful conditions.

John Kerry lied. Without remorse. To advance his budding political career. He tarnished the reputation of his comrades when the military was out of vogue.

Now, three decades later, camouflage is back in the fall fashion line-up. Suddenly, Kerry's proud of his service, portraying himself as a war hero.

But it doesn't work that way. You can't trash those who served in front of Congress and the American people, spend your senatorial career voting against our nation's security interests, then expect vets to love you when you abruptly change your tune.

Kerry might have won support had he apologized frankly for what he said in the early 1970s. But he no more disavowed his lies than he disclaimed the lies of Michael Moore.

Which brings us to problems two and three.

John Kerry doesn't show a trace of integrity. Those constant flip-flops to suit the prevailing political winds are more troubling to military folks than many of the issues themselves.

Integrity matters to those in uniform. You have to be able to depend on the guy in the next foxhole — or swift boat. Trust is more important than any technology.

And John Kerry just doesn't seem trustworthy.

Finally — and this is the one the pundits have trouble grasping, given the self-promoting nature of today's culture — real heroes don't call themselves heroes. Honorable soldiers or sailors don't brag. They let their deeds speak for themselves. Some of the most off-putting words any veteran can utter are "I'm a war hero."

Real heroes (and I've been honored to know some) never portray their service in grandiose terms, telling TV cameras that they're reporting for duty. Real heroes may be proud of the sacrifices they offered, but they don't shout for attention.

This is so profoundly a part of the military code of behavior that it cannot be over-emphasized. The rule is that those who brag about being heroes usually aren't heroes at all. Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets. And certainly not for anyone who wishes to trade on his service to become our commander-in-chief.

I wish Kerry were better. The truth is that I'm appalled by Bush's domestic policies. I believe that the Cheney-Halliburton connection stinks to high heaven. And I'm convinced that Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld & Co. have done colossal damage to our military and to our foreign policy.

But we're at war. And for all his faults, Bush has proven himself as a great wartime leader. Despite painful mistakes, he's served our security needs remarkably well. And security trumps all else in the age of terror.

Kerry says many of the right things. But I can't believe a word of it. I just can't trust John Kerry. I can't trust him to lead, I can't trust him to fight — and I can't trust him to make the right kind of peace.

I have reservations about voting for George W. Bush. But I have no reservations about voting against John Kerry. And I'm not alone.

Ralph Peters is a retired Army officer and a regular Post contributor.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/29339.htm

[CCTAU 3,342]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

[Tigermike 3,053]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

You act as if NO President has ever flown in a Navy jet? Or been to a Navy ship.

[AURainman 6]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

When was the last time a president of the USA went to battle? Is that what you would've preferred?

[LegalEagle 22]

Question. What makes one a hero?

Apparently being killed in war does, regardless of the conduct leading up to the death.

That is true of being wounded also. Unless, arguably, you're Kerry with schrapnel in your back side.

As you know, I'm not a fan of any of the candidates, but I heard Republican "Hero," Ollie North (Remember his heroism in the Iran-Contra saga with guest appearances by Fawn Hall who needed her bra stuffed anyway?) who really banged on Kerry for coming back home and saying what he said about his fellow soldiers. (Then the argument commenced about what he said. . . yada, yada, yada.)

Well, do any of us really think that no "war crimes" were commited by any American soldiers in Viet Nam? (And I don't necessarily blame them.) In my mind, him speaking out about the war was most admirable. And if he caused that stupid war to end one day sooner, I'm proud of him. If you just sit over here and say this or that, it's okay, but when you did your duty, you have a right to say what you believe when you come home.

So I ask, what really makes one a "hero?" That word is really being thrown about lately.

[Ranger12 46]

In all honesty, I think the word "hero" is thrown around way too loosely.

[LegalEagle 22]

In all honesty, I think the word "hero" is thrown around way too loosely.

Gee Ranger, I'm at a loss for words! We agree on something!! War Damn Eagle!!

[Tigermike 3,053]

Well, do any of us really think that no "war crimes" were commited by any American soldiers in Viet Nam? (And I don't necessarily blame them.) In my mind, him speaking out about the war was most admirable. And if he caused that stupid war to end one day sooner, I'm proud of him. If you just sit over here and say this or that, it's okay, but when you did your duty, you have a right to say what you believe when you come home.

There is no doubt that there were some "war crimes" committed. But they were in no way as wide spread and as pervasive as Mr. Kerry testified.

If he had only told the truth I don't think near as many Vietnam Vets would feel so strongly about him testifying. But he not only exaggerated, but outright lied in his testimony. He also traveled to Paris and had talks with the North Vietnamese delegates. All while there were still service men and women fighting and dieing and POW's still in captivity.

He was also present in a meeting where his VVAW cronies actually discussed the assassination of several U.S. Senator's. He never bothered to report that discussions. He claims he quit the VVAW before this happened, but there is evidence otherwise.

"November 12 - 15, 1971 -- the VVAW leadership meets in Kansas City. Fearing surveillance by authorities, the group relocates the meeting to another building. They debate, then vote down a plan to assassinate several pro-war U.S. Senators. Despite John Kerry's claim to have left the VVAW before this event, several witnesses, meeting minutes and FBI records eventually place Kerry at the Kansas City meeting."

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Timeline

[Ranger12 46]

Guys, you have to realize that we use the term hero way too much these days. I don't expect anybody to pat me on the back for my service and when somebody has called me a hero for my service, I really did not feel comfortable being called that and I was quick to point out that I am not a hero. I was only doing the job I volunteered for. A hero is somebody that does something extraordinary. They went way above and beyond the call of duty and did something that most men would not do in that same situation. A hero is also somebody that does the right thing when it seems that most would rather not. We need to respect our veterans and current military personnel and thank them for their service and sacrifice. We need to teahc our kids to look up to them with that same respect. However, we need to avoid need using the word hero to describe everybody that served or that currently serves. I have seen people get purple hearts for what barely classifies as a wound, and I have seen people not get purple hearts because they died in a humvee accident and I personnaly lost a friend when a claymore went off in their face while they were setting it. Neither got a Purple heart for that, but they are more of a hero in my book then those that got a Purple heart because of the flesh wound they received. Hope I am making a point on how the term hero is misused sometimes. Unfortunately I received my PH for more then a flesh wound, but I would give it back in a heartbeat to avoid what I had go through to be "awarded" (term used loosely ) that PH. My heros are the 22 buddies of mine that I served alongside that are not longer with us. I would gladly give all my medals back and I would even give my Ranger tab up to have those guys back. As much as I think Kerry is a two faced liar, I am getting sick of the debate if he is a hero or not and I am gettin sick of hearing that term thrown around so much about other veterans.

[tiger88 934]

There is a huge difference between performing a heroic act and being a hero, imo.

Hero is probably hands down the most overused word that is in the english dictionary.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Well, do any of us really think that no "war crimes" were commited by any American soldiers in Viet Nam?  (And I don't necessarily blame them.)  In my mind, him speaking out about the war was most admirable.  And if he caused that stupid war to end one day sooner, I'm proud of him.  If you just sit over here and say this or that, it's okay, but when you did your duty, you have a right to say what you believe when you come home.

There is no doubt that there were some "war crimes" committed. But they were in no way as wide spread and as pervasive as Mr. Kerry testified.

If he had only told the truth I don't think near as many Vietnam Vets would feel so strongly about him testifying. But he not only exaggerated, but outright lied in his testimony. He also traveled to Paris and had talks with the North Vietnamese delegates. All while there were still service men and women fighting and dieing and POW's still in captivity.

He was also present in a meeting where his VVAW cronies actually discussed the assassination of several U.S. Senator's. He never bothered to report that discussions. He claims he quit the VVAW before this happened, but there is evidence otherwise.

"November 12 - 15, 1971 -- the VVAW leadership meets in Kansas City. Fearing surveillance by authorities, the group relocates the meeting to another building. They debate, then vote down a plan to assassinate several pro-war U.S. Senators. Despite John Kerry's claim to have left the VVAW before this event, several witnesses, meeting minutes and FBI records eventually place Kerry at the Kansas City meeting."

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Timeline

But he not only exaggerated, but outright lied in his testimony.

Cite the specific lie or lies you are asserting.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

When was the last time a president of the USA went to battle? Is that what you would've preferred?

If that's how you interpet my comment, then its no wonder your a Bush supporter.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

You act as if NO President has ever flown in a Navy jet? Or been to a Navy ship.

Competing with Rainman for the least logical interpretation of a comment? It's close.

[Tiger Al 0]

TexasTiger, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but, when Bush did that it was a staged photo-op. The ship was no more than two miles off the coast of San Diego. The ship was turned around so that the city wouldn't be visible on camera so as to look like it was 'out to sea.' The pilot let him hold the stick for a few seconds so he could say he actually flew the plane. I'll guarantee we'll see plenty of those pics at the RNC, since that's what they were probably shot for. Mission Accomplished...Hoorah!!!

[tiger88 934]

TexasTiger, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but, when Bush did that it was a staged photo-op. The ship was no more than two miles off the coast of San Diego. The ship was turned around so that the city wouldn't be visible on camera so as to look like it was 'out to sea.' The pilot let him hold the stick for a few seconds so he could say he actually flew the plane. I'll guarantee we'll see plenty of those pics at the RNC, since that's what they were probably shot for. Mission Accomplished...Hoorah!!!

Do you think you're the only genius that figured out this was a photo op? I thought it was just another one of bush's daily jet flights myself? I thought they were returning from some top secret bombing mission in Iraq! :ph34r:

[tiger88 934]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

When was the last time a president of the USA went to battle? Is that what you would've preferred?

If that's how you interpet my comment, then its no wonder your a Bush supporter.

Well your point is confusing to say the least. Where exactly has the claim been made that Bush's actions in the photo op had anything to do with heroism? What was he shouting in the flight suit? You seem to imply that he is pretending to be some kind of war hero yet he never even went to war so I'm sure that's not the case.

I for one have never thought of bush as a hero and I doubt too many republicans do yet you point out he is not one. "Acting like he had won a battle....", thats just plain stupid. Sure he was a little pumped like anyone who just landed on the deck of an aircraft carrier would be but your interpretation is just more of your typical blind hatred of bush.

The guy flew jets in the guard and had the opportunity to go for another ride. I wouldn't have done it but he did. So freaking what? He probably was just in the mood for some more libbie whining :roll: .

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

When was the last time a president of the USA went to battle? Is that what you would've preferred?

If that's how you interpet my comment, then its no wonder your a Bush supporter.

Well your point is confusing to say the least. Where exactly has the claim been made that Bush's actions in the photo op had anything to do with heroism? What was he shouting in the flight suit? You seem to imply that he is pretending to be some kind of war hero yet he never even went to war so I'm sure that's not the case.

I for one have never thought of bush as a hero and I doubt too many republicans do yet you point out he is not one. "Acting like he had won a battle....", thats just plain stupid. Sure he was a little pumped like anyone who just landed on the deck of an aircraft carrier would be but your interpretation is just more of your typical blind hatred of bush.

The guy flew jets in the guard and had the opportunity to go for another ride. I wouldn't have done it but he did. So freaking what? He probably was just in the mood for some more libbie whining :roll: .

Have you bought your's yet?

http://www.whatonearthcatalog.com/whatonea...302_ps_dpr.html

http://www.dutchguard.com/page/DG/PROD/tv/flight

The Bush doll joins many other Navy Seals, Blue Angels and World War II aviators in Blue Box's "Elite Force" series.

Bush is the first president to be so honored, "and maybe the last," said the company's spokeswoman, Lauri Aibel, who notes that some complaints have already been received. "We don't condone or endorse the president, but he fit the criteria of our Elite Force collection. . . . It would have to be somebody in uniform, a military hero of some kind, or depicting a military uniform."

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/Bush-...ator12aug03.htm

[Tiger Al 0]

TexasTiger, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but, when Bush did that it was a staged photo-op. The ship was no more than two miles off the coast of San Diego. The ship was turned around so that the city wouldn't be visible on camera so as to look like it was 'out to sea.' The pilot let him hold the stick for a few seconds so he could say he actually flew the plane. I'll guarantee we'll see plenty of those pics at the RNC, since that's what they were probably shot for. Mission Accomplished...Hoorah!!!

Do you think you're the only genius that figured out this was a photo op? I thought it was just another one of bush's daily jet flights myself? I thought they were returning from some top secret bombing mission in Iraq! :ph34r:

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One? Or, is government waste only an issue when discussing the Dept. of Education and other unnecessary programs?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

TexasTiger, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but, when Bush did that it was a staged photo-op. The ship was no more than two miles off the coast of San Diego. The ship was turned around so that the city wouldn't be visible on camera so as to look like it was 'out to sea.' The pilot let him hold the stick for a few seconds so he could say he actually flew the plane. I'll guarantee we'll see plenty of those pics at the RNC, since that's what they were probably shot for. Mission Accomplished...Hoorah!!!

Do you think you're the only genius that figured out this was a photo op? I thought it was just another one of bush's daily jet flights myself? I thought they were returning from some top secret bombing mission in Iraq! :ph34r:

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One? Or, is government waste only an issue when discussing the Dept. of Education and other unnecessary programs?

If you don't sprinkle emoticons generously, they can't follow you. Conservatives need pictures to understand the words.

[Tiger Al 0]

...he fit the criteria of our Elite Force collection. . . . It would have to be somebody in uniform, a military hero of some kind, or depicting a military uniform."

:huh: Dubya???

[Tigermike 3,053]

Cite the specific lie or lies you are asserting.

Try these and start the spin cycle.

o In his April 1971 speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, John Kerry claimed that war crimes committed by the American military against Vietnamese civilians were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis..." War crimes in Vietnam were actually quite rare.

o Kerry claimed that war crimes were being committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." In fact, military personnel were warned that "if you disobey the rules of engagement, you can be tried and punished." War crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.

o Kerry charged that the war in Vietnam was a racist war, that "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." Research published in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor" and other sources shows that casualty rates for black and white soldiers during Vietnam closely matched the proportion of America's overall population represented by each race.

o Kerry claimed that Vietnam was "ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism..." Later in his remarks, Kerry responded to a question about what might happen to the South Vietnamese after our withdrawal with "So what I am saying is that yes, there will be some recrimination but far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America..." Yet according to historian Guenter Lewy in "America in Vietnam," "...the number of civilians killed deliberately by the VC is appallingly high. No counterpart to this death toll caused by communist terror tactics exists on the allied side."

o Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges, although none of the witnesses there were willing to sign depositions affirming their claims. Later investigators were unable to confirm any of the reported atrocities, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses had never been in Vietnam, had never been in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Keys

[Tigermike 3,053]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

You act as if NO President has ever flown in a Navy jet? Or been to a Navy ship.

Competing with Rainman for the least logical interpretation of a comment? It's close.

One thing is for dang sure, if Mr. Kerry had made that exact same flight he would have figured out how to get a medal for it.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Bragging is for drunks at the end of the bar, not for real vets.

I've never spoken to a vet who patted his own back. I only knew of his heroic efforts through others. A hero usually does what he has to do, not what he wants to do. And often times what you had to do is too painful to bring up.

Heroes don't prance around in specially made flight suits acting like their ace fighter pilots who somehow won a battle they didn't even fight in, either. That's shouting, ain't it?

You act as if NO President has ever flown in a Navy jet? Or been to a Navy ship.

Competing with Rainman for the least logical interpretation of a comment? It's close.

One thing is for dang sure, if Mr. Kerry had made that exact same flight he would have figured out how to get a medal for it.

Well, if there had been any real danger to it, Bush would have pulled some strings to get out of it. Or just not show up.

[tiger88 934]

TexasTiger, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but, when Bush did that it was a staged photo-op. The ship was no more than two miles off the coast of San Diego. The ship was turned around so that the city wouldn't be visible on camera so as to look like it was 'out to sea.' The pilot let him hold the stick for a few seconds so he could say he actually flew the plane. I'll guarantee we'll see plenty of those pics at the RNC, since that's what they were probably shot for. Mission Accomplished...Hoorah!!!

Do you think you're the only genius that figured out this was a photo op? I thought it was just another one of bush's daily jet flights myself? I thought they were returning from some top secret bombing mission in Iraq! :ph34r:

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One? Or, is government waste only an issue when discussing the Dept. of Education and other unnecessary programs?

Well you can either chalk it up as a training exercise/photo op, which it pretty much was, or you can cry and whine some more about it. Hmmm, I wonder which one you'll choose?