HEROES DON'T SHOUT

[CCTAU 3,342]

I would have made the flight. You know why, because I could! Bush was getting in on the first ariving soldiers back and wanted the country to know that he supported the soldiers. The only people that had a problem with it are the whiny little dems. They can't get a candidate that can say they can fly a jet. I mean, riding out to an aircraft carrier in a swift boat just doesn't cut it. Of course he would have had to turn around after the first big wave to go back and get a purple heart for the bump on the head he received!

Bush is everything good that the dem's candidate is NOT.

ABB is slowly dying. So rant and rave now while you can.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Bush is everything good that the dem's candidate is NOT.

Good at lying, good at acting tough, even though he's a wimp, good butchering his native tongue, good at being stubborn, etc.

[Tiger Al 0]

Commanders knew about the platoon's atrocities in 1967, and in some cases, encouraged the soldiers to continue the violence.

Two soldiers who tried to stop the atrocities were warned by their commanders to remain quiet before transferring to other units.

The Army investigated 30 war-crime allegations against Tiger Force between February, 1971, and June, 1975, finding a total of 18 soldiers committed crimes, including murder and assault. But no one was ever charged.

Six platoon soldiers suspected of war crimes - including an officer - were allowed to resign during the investigation, escaping military prosecution.

The findings of the investigation were sent to the offices of the secretary of the Army and the secretary of defense, records show, but no action was taken.

Top White House officials, including John Dean, former chief counsel to President Richard Nixon, repeatedly were sent reports on the progress of the investigation.

To this day, the Army's Criminal Investigation Command refuses to release thousands of records that could explain what happened and why the case was dropped. Army spokesman Joe Burlas said last week it may have been difficult to press charges, but he couldn't explain flaws in the investigation.

The Army interviewed 137 witnesses and tracked down former Tiger Force members in more than 60 cities around the world.

LINK

An eight-month investigation by The Blade, based on thousands of military records and interviews, shows:

Commanders knew of the platoon's atrocities in 1967 but refused to investigate.

Soldiers went to Army commanders in 1967 to complain about the killing of civilians, but their pleas were ignored.

Army investigators learned about the atrocities in February, 1971, but took a year to interview witnesses.

Two Army investigators pretended to investigate while encouraging soldiers to keep quiet so they wouldn't be prosecuted.

By the time the investigation was completed in June, 1975, six key suspects were allowed to leave the Army - escaping the reach of military prosecutors.

When the Army's final report reached commanders in 1975 for possible prosecution against four remaining suspects, investigators gave inaccurate and at times, incomplete information.

In three cases in which the final report accused people of "murder," commanders took no action.

Investigators found that five other soldiers carried out atrocities, but their names were never mentioned in the final report.

Four military legal experts who reviewed the report for The Blade questioned why the case was closed so abruptly.

"There should have been a [military grand jury] investigation of some kind done on this," said retired Lt. Col. H. Wayne Elliott, a former Army law professor. "I just can't believe this wasn't a pretty high profile thing in the Pentagon."

LINK

Torn by bullets, the body of Dao Hue was found near the river, a mile from the hut he shared with his niece.

The elderly carpenter was one of the first civilians killed by Tiger Force soldiers in a chain of atrocities that forever changed the Song Ve Valley.

The reminders are everywhere: the unmarked graves along the trails, the bend in the river where the men tried to hide from the soldiers, the rice paddy where the bodies were pulled from the mud.

The stories of the troops firing on unarmed civilians in the summer of 1967 are told in schools, communal centers, and prayer services.

Elderly villagers still describe the Army helicopters dropping leaflets, warning the people to go to relocation camps.

Within days, the soldiers wearing the "chicken patches" - the eagle insignia of the 101st Airborne Division worn by Tiger Force - were rounding up families, seizing their food, and torching their huts.

Over the next six weeks, platoon members killed an untold number who refused to go to the decrepit camps, according to a Blade investigation based on Army records and interviews with more than 100 former Tiger Force soldiers and Vietnamese villagers.

To this day, the shooting deaths evoke anger in those who survived the rampage - with some people calling for the former soldiers to be prosecuted.

"The people who carried out these crimes need to be held responsible," said Vo Thanh Tien, 50, a local provincial official. "They made it very hard for the people who live along the river."

In seven months of atrocities - May to November, 1967 - a third took place in this valley in Quang Ngai province, a place so remote and timeless the effects are visible decades later.

LINK

For Barry Bowman, the images return at night.

The elderly man praying on his knees. The officer pointing a rifle at the man's head.

The shot.

That piercing shot.

Before it's over, the old man drops to the ground - his body twitching in the blood-soaked grass.

Over and over, Mr. Bowman relives the execution of the Vietnamese villager known as Dao Hue.

Despite years of therapy, the former Tiger Force soldier is still deeply troubled by the brutal shooting he witnessed as a young medic in the Song Ve Valley.

He's not alone.

Of the 43 former platoon members interviewed by The Blade in an eight-month investigation of Tiger Force, a dozen expressed remorse for committing or failing to stop atrocities.

They share some of the same symptoms - flashbacks or nightmares - and over the past 36 years have sought counseling, they said.

Nine have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, a psychiatric condition that can occur following life-threatening experiences.

To this day, they wrestle with memories of Tiger Force's rampage through more than 40 hamlets in the Central Highlands of South Vietnam in 1967.

Mr. Bowman, who was standing next to Mr. Dao when he was shot to death by a platoon leader, said he remains shaken by the unprovoked attack on the 68-year-old man as he prayed for mercy.

"It was devastating," he said.

"It's another layer that needs to be addressed," Dr. Dewleen Baker, director of a PTSD research clinic in Cincinnati, said. "It's not that easy. How do you reconcile killing civilians? It's hard, especially when you have a core set of values."

"The killing haunts me every minute of my life,'' he said in a recent interview. "To survive, you had to say, `The killing don't mean nothing.' That's how you got through it, man. But eventually, it all catches up with you.''

Former Sgt. Ernest Moreland refuses to talk about his role in the stabbing death of a detainee near Duc Pho, saying he fears he could be charged. But he said he still tries to rationalize the killing.

"The things you did. You think back and say, `I can't believe I did that.' At the time, it seemed right," he said. "But now, you know what you did was wrong. The killing gets to you. The nightmares get to you. You just can't escape it. You can't escape the past."

LINK

[CCTAU 3,342]

Bush is everything good that the dem's candidate is NOT.

Good at lying, good at acting tough, even though he's a wimp, good butchering his native tongue, good at being stubborn, etc.

I see your posts (lips moving), but I can't hear a thing you're saying.

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, BUSH LIED, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, ABB, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, NO WMDs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, VOTE sKERRY, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Michael Moore is GOD, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and oh yeah, swift boat veterans are liars..

SSDD with you guys.

[MDM4AU 336]

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One?

Probably not anymore than what it cost to send Hillary to Iraq when you consider all the secret service et al. Both were there for the same reasons, Congrats to troops and of course a photo op.

[Tiger Al 0]

TexasTiger, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but, when Bush did that it was a staged photo-op. The ship was no more than two miles off the coast of San Diego. The ship was turned around so that the city wouldn't be visible on camera so as to look like it was 'out to sea.' The pilot let him hold the stick for a few seconds so he could say he actually flew the plane. I'll guarantee we'll see plenty of those pics at the RNC, since that's what they were probably shot for. Mission Accomplished...Hoorah!!!

Do you think you're the only genius that figured out this was a photo op? I thought it was just another one of bush's daily jet flights myself? I thought they were returning from some top secret bombing mission in Iraq! :ph34r:

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One? Or, is government waste only an issue when discussing the Dept. of Education and other unnecessary programs?

Well you can either chalk it up as a training exercise/photo op, which it pretty much was, or you can cry and whine some more about it. Hmmm, I wonder which one you'll choose?

Wasn't a training exercise...they were returning from their tour in the Persian Gulf (or, Iraq, if you like). Remember, that was the official 'reason' given for the 'Mission Accomplished' banner.

Hmmm, I wonder which one you'll continue to choose?

[tiger88 934]

Whats your point al? Everyone knows war is hell and sometimes people lose it and do hellish things. The point made on this thread is that it was nowhere remotely near as widespread as kerry claimed upon his return. These articles incriminate about 18 people give or take a few. Is that widespread?

[Tiger Al 0]

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One?

Probably not anymore than what it cost to send Hillary to Iraq when you consider all the secret service et al. Both were there for the same reasons, Congrats to troops and of course a photo op.

Was that Thanksgiving when she ate real chow with the troops while Bush paraded around with that delicious looking PLASTIC turkey on yet another photo-op? Thanks for reminding me about that one!

[MDM4AU 336]

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One?

Probably not anymore than what it cost to send Hillary to Iraq when you consider all the secret service et al. Both were there for the same reasons, Congrats to troops and of course a photo op.

Was that Thanksgiving when she ate real chow with the troops while Bush paraded around with that delicious looking PLASTIC turkey on yet another photo-op? Thanks for reminding me about that one!

Nice way to dodge the point. Got a link for all that slime you are throwing around about the grub? Or is that more DNC Idiot's Guide to Talking Points?

[tiger88 934]

TexasTiger, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but, when Bush did that it was a staged photo-op. The ship was no more than two miles off the coast of San Diego. The ship was turned around so that the city wouldn't be visible on camera so as to look like it was 'out to sea.' The pilot let him hold the stick for a few seconds so he could say he actually flew the plane. I'll guarantee we'll see plenty of those pics at the RNC, since that's what they were probably shot for. Mission Accomplished...Hoorah!!!

Do you think you're the only genius that figured out this was a photo op? I thought it was just another one of bush's daily jet flights myself? I thought they were returning from some top secret bombing mission in Iraq! :ph34r:

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One? Or, is government waste only an issue when discussing the Dept. of Education and other unnecessary programs?

Well you can either chalk it up as a training exercise/photo op, which it pretty much was, or you can cry and whine some more about it. Hmmm, I wonder which one you'll choose?

Wasn't a training exercise...they were returning from their tour in the Persian Gulf (or, Iraq, if you like). Remember, that was the official 'reason' given for the 'Mission Accomplished' banner.

Hmmm, I wonder which one you'll continue to choose?

Sure it was. Everybody received additional training on turning the boat around and landing the plane on it. How much extra did that cost? Couldn't have been that much. This is so amusing, please continue crying and whining about something so that is so silly it is barely worth an afterthought.

[Tiger Al 0]

Whats your point al? Everyone knows war is hell and sometimes people lose it and do hellish things. The point made on this thread is that it was nowhere remotely near as widespread as kerry claimed upon his return. These articles incriminate about 18 people give or take a few. Is that widespread?

Better look at those numbers a little closer. Yeah, war's hell. So are we moving from the 'no war crimes were committed' stance to the 'so we killed a bunch of civilians, war is hell and it was justified homocide anyway' defense? Oh, wait, you're the people who likened the torture at Abu Ghraib to college fraternity pranks.

Blind nationalism...ain't it grand!!!

[CCTAU 3,342]

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One?

Probably not anymore than what it cost to send Hillary to Iraq when you consider all the secret service et al. Both were there for the same reasons, Congrats to troops and of course a photo op.

Was that Thanksgiving when she ate real chow with the troops while Bush paraded around with that delicious looking PLASTIC turkey on yet another photo-op? Thanks for reminding me about that one!

It was actually a real turkey, just wasn't meant for eating. Go blow yourself TA. You get a new friend on the board and you think you actually have clue once again. Most, if not all of your (relevant) lies have been debunked. I don't care to look at those pics on an open forum. But I guarantdamntee you that there wasn't nearly as many victims in your pics as in the hole that Sadaam burried his own people in.

Bush is a good man. Your guy is a gigolo. I at least want someone who has experience (even if it wasn't great) in the business world running my country as opposed to a guy who has only screwed women associated with the money that comes from a business.

[Tigermike 3,053]

Commanders knew about the platoon's atrocities in 1967, and in some cases, encouraged the soldiers to continue the violence.

Two soldiers who tried to stop the atrocities were warned by their commanders to remain quiet before transferring to other units.

The Army investigated 30 war-crime allegations against Tiger Force between February, 1971, and June, 1975, finding a total of 18 soldiers committed crimes, including murder and assault. But no one was ever charged.

Six platoon soldiers suspected of war crimes - including an officer - were allowed to resign during the investigation, escaping military prosecution.

The findings of the investigation were sent to the offices of the secretary of the Army and the secretary of defense, records show, but no action was taken.

Top White House officials, including John Dean, former chief counsel to President Richard Nixon, repeatedly were sent reports on the progress of the investigation.

To this day, the Army's Criminal Investigation Command refuses to release thousands of records that could explain what happened and why the case was dropped. Army spokesman Joe Burlas said last week it may have been difficult to press charges, but he couldn't explain flaws in the investigation.

The Army interviewed 137 witnesses and tracked down former Tiger Force members in more than 60 cities around the world.

LINK

An eight-month investigation by The Blade, based on thousands of military records and interviews, shows:

Commanders knew of the platoon's atrocities in 1967 but refused to investigate.

Soldiers went to Army commanders in 1967 to complain about the killing of civilians, but their pleas were ignored.

Army investigators learned about the atrocities in February, 1971, but took a year to interview witnesses.

Two Army investigators pretended to investigate while encouraging soldiers to keep quiet so they wouldn't be prosecuted.

By the time the investigation was completed in June, 1975, six key suspects were allowed to leave the Army - escaping the reach of military prosecutors.

When the Army's final report reached commanders in 1975 for possible prosecution against four remaining suspects, investigators gave inaccurate and at times, incomplete information.

In three cases in which the final report accused people of "murder," commanders took no action.

Investigators found that five other soldiers carried out atrocities, but their names were never mentioned in the final report.

Four military legal experts who reviewed the report for The Blade questioned why the case was closed so abruptly.

"There should have been a [military grand jury] investigation of some kind done on this," said retired Lt. Col. H. Wayne Elliott, a former Army law professor. "I just can't believe this wasn't a pretty high profile thing in the Pentagon."

LINK

Torn by bullets, the body of Dao Hue was found near the river, a mile from the hut he shared with his niece.

The elderly carpenter was one of the first civilians killed by Tiger Force soldiers in a chain of atrocities that forever changed the Song Ve Valley.

The reminders are everywhere: the unmarked graves along the trails, the bend in the river where the men tried to hide from the soldiers, the rice paddy where the bodies were pulled from the mud.

The stories of the troops firing on unarmed civilians in the summer of 1967 are told in schools, communal centers, and prayer services.

Elderly villagers still describe the Army helicopters dropping leaflets, warning the people to go to relocation camps.

Within days, the soldiers wearing the "chicken patches" - the eagle insignia of the 101st Airborne Division worn by Tiger Force - were rounding up families, seizing their food, and torching their huts.

Over the next six weeks, platoon members killed an untold number who refused to go to the decrepit camps, according to a Blade investigation based on Army records and interviews with more than 100 former Tiger Force soldiers and Vietnamese villagers.

To this day, the shooting deaths evoke anger in those who survived the rampage - with some people calling for the former soldiers to be prosecuted.

"The people who carried out these crimes need to be held responsible," said Vo Thanh Tien, 50, a local provincial official. "They made it very hard for the people who live along the river."

In seven months of atrocities - May to November, 1967 - a third took place in this valley in Quang Ngai province, a place so remote and timeless the effects are visible decades later.

LINK

For Barry Bowman, the images return at night.

The elderly man praying on his knees. The officer pointing a rifle at the man's head.

The shot.

That piercing shot.

Before it's over, the old man drops to the ground - his body twitching in the blood-soaked grass.

Over and over, Mr. Bowman relives the execution of the Vietnamese villager known as Dao Hue.

Despite years of therapy, the former Tiger Force soldier is still deeply troubled by the brutal shooting he witnessed as a young medic in the Song Ve Valley.

He's not alone.

Of the 43 former platoon members interviewed by The Blade in an eight-month investigation of Tiger Force, a dozen expressed remorse for committing or failing to stop atrocities.

They share some of the same symptoms - flashbacks or nightmares - and over the past 36 years have sought counseling, they said.

Nine have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, a psychiatric condition that can occur following life-threatening experiences.

To this day, they wrestle with memories of Tiger Force's rampage through more than 40 hamlets in the Central Highlands of South Vietnam in 1967.

Mr. Bowman, who was standing next to Mr. Dao when he was shot to death by a platoon leader, said he remains shaken by the unprovoked attack on the 68-year-old man as he prayed for mercy.

"It was devastating," he said.

"It's another layer that needs to be addressed," Dr. Dewleen Baker, director of a PTSD research clinic in Cincinnati, said. "It's not that easy. How do you reconcile killing civilians? It's hard, especially when you have a core set of values."

"The killing haunts me every minute of my life,'' he said in a recent interview. "To survive, you had to say, `The killing don't mean nothing.' That's how you got through it, man. But eventually, it all catches up with you.''

Former Sgt. Ernest Moreland refuses to talk about his role in the stabbing death of a detainee near Duc Pho, saying he fears he could be charged. But he said he still tries to rationalize the killing.

"The things you did. You think back and say, `I can't believe I did that.' At the time, it seemed right," he said. "But now, you know what you did was wrong. The killing gets to you. The nightmares get to you. You just can't escape it. You can't escape the past."

LINK

No one here has ever denied that some of those things did happen. We have denied that it was widespread, condoned and encouraged at all levels, despite what Mr. Kerry testified to in the 70's.

o Kerry claimed that war crimes were being committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." In fact, military personnel were warned that "if you disobey the rules of engagement, you can be tried and punished." War crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Keys

[tiger88 934]

Whats your point al? Everyone knows war is hell and sometimes people lose it and do hellish things. The point made on this thread is that it was nowhere remotely near as widespread as kerry claimed upon his return. These articles incriminate about 18 people give or take a few. Is that widespread?

Better look at those numbers a little closer. Yeah, war's hell. So are we moving from the 'no war crimes were committed' stance to the 'so we killed a bunch of civilians, war is hell and it was justified homocide anyway' defense? Oh, wait, you're the people who likened the torture at Abu Ghraib to college fraternity pranks.

Blind nationalism...ain't it grand!!!

You are the king of melodrama. Who has a no war crimes were committed stance? Thats just stupid. Everyone has known since before vietnam was over that there were war crimes committed. Still waiting to see your evidence that these crimes were as widespread as kerry indicated. All I've seen so far is that several members of one group went alotta ape$heet and killed some people. A horrible act no doubt.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Bush is everything good that the dem's candidate is NOT.

Good at lying, good at acting tough, even though he's a wimp, good butchering his native tongue, good at being stubborn, etc.

I see your posts (lips moving), but I can't hear a thing you're saying.

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, BUSH LIED, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, ABB, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, NO WMDs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, VOTE sKERRY, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Michael Moore is GOD, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and oh yeah, swift boat veterans are liars..

SSDD with you guys.

You're so right. It doesn't matter what we say, you only hear what you've been programmed to hear.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

You are the king of melodrama.

Let me introduce you to David and Bama Grad sometime.

[Tigermike 3,053]

Cite the specific lie or lies you are asserting.

Try these and start the spin cycle.

o In his April 1971 speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, John Kerry claimed that war crimes committed by the American military against Vietnamese civilians were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis..." War crimes in Vietnam were actually quite rare.

o Kerry claimed that war crimes were being committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." In fact, military personnel were warned that "if you disobey the rules of engagement, you can be tried and punished." War crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.

o Kerry charged that the war in Vietnam was a racist war, that "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." Research published in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor" and other sources shows that casualty rates for black and white soldiers during Vietnam closely matched the proportion of America's overall population represented by each race.

o Kerry claimed that Vietnam was "ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism..." Later in his remarks, Kerry responded to a question about what might happen to the South Vietnamese after our withdrawal with "So what I am saying is that yes, there will be some recrimination but far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America..." Yet according to historian Guenter Lewy in "America in Vietnam," "...the number of civilians killed deliberately by the VC is appallingly high. No counterpart to this death toll caused by communist terror tactics exists on the allied side."

o Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges, although none of the witnesses there were willing to sign depositions affirming their claims. Later investigators were unable to confirm any of the reported atrocities, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses had never been in Vietnam, had never been in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Keys

Tex, are you ignoring these lies of Mr. Kerry?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Cite the specific lie or lies you are asserting.

Try these and start the spin cycle.

o In his April 1971 speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, John Kerry claimed that war crimes committed by the American military against Vietnamese civilians were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis..." War crimes in Vietnam were actually quite rare.

o Kerry claimed that war crimes were being committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." In fact, military personnel were warned that "if you disobey the rules of engagement, you can be tried and punished." War crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.

o Kerry charged that the war in Vietnam was a racist war, that "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." Research published in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor" and other sources shows that casualty rates for black and white soldiers during Vietnam closely matched the proportion of America's overall population represented by each race.

o Kerry claimed that Vietnam was "ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism..." Later in his remarks, Kerry responded to a question about what might happen to the South Vietnamese after our withdrawal with "So what I am saying is that yes, there will be some recrimination but far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America..." Yet according to historian Guenter Lewy in "America in Vietnam," "...the number of civilians killed deliberately by the VC is appallingly high. No counterpart to this death toll caused by communist terror tactics exists on the allied side."

o Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges, although none of the witnesses there were willing to sign depositions affirming their claims. Later investigators were unable to confirm any of the reported atrocities, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses had never been in Vietnam, had never been in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Keys

Tex, are you ignoring these lies of Mr. Kerry?

You haven't proven they're lies.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One?

Probably not anymore than what it cost to send Hillary to Iraq when you consider all the secret service et al. Both were there for the same reasons, Congrats to troops and of course a photo op.

Was that Thanksgiving when she ate real chow with the troops while Bush paraded around with that delicious looking PLASTIC turkey on yet another photo-op? Thanks for reminding me about that one!

It was actually a real turkey, just wasn't meant for eating. Go blow yourself TA. You get a new friend on the board and you think you actually have clue once again. Most, if not all of your (relevant) lies have been debunked. I don't care to look at those pics on an open forum. But I guarantdamntee you that there wasn't nearly as many victims in your pics as in the hole that Sadaam burried his own people in.

Bush is a good man. Your guy is a gigolo. I at least want someone who has experience (even if it wasn't great) in the business world running my country as opposed to a guy who has only screwed women associated with the money that comes from a business.

Unlike Bush, Kerry started and sold a successful business-- and he didn't need Daddy's handpicked guy at the SEC to bail him out for breaking the law-- again.

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:CMoJB...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[CCTAU 3,342]

Cite the specific lie or lies you are asserting.

Try these and start the spin cycle.

o In his April 1971 speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, John Kerry claimed that war crimes committed by the American military against Vietnamese civilians were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis..." War crimes in Vietnam were actually quite rare.

o Kerry claimed that war crimes were being committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." In fact, military personnel were warned that "if you disobey the rules of engagement, you can be tried and punished." War crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.

o Kerry charged that the war in Vietnam was a racist war, that "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." Research published in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor" and other sources shows that casualty rates for black and white soldiers during Vietnam closely matched the proportion of America's overall population represented by each race.

o Kerry claimed that Vietnam was "ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism..." Later in his remarks, Kerry responded to a question about what might happen to the South Vietnamese after our withdrawal with "So what I am saying is that yes, there will be some recrimination but far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America..." Yet according to historian Guenter Lewy in "America in Vietnam," "...the number of civilians killed deliberately by the VC is appallingly high. No counterpart to this death toll caused by communist terror tactics exists on the allied side."

o Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges, although none of the witnesses there were willing to sign depositions affirming their claims. Later investigators were unable to confirm any of the reported atrocities, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses had never been in Vietnam, had never been in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Keys

Tex, are you ignoring these lies of Mr. Kerry?

You haven't proven they're lies.

You haven't proven you have a brain yet either. What's your point?

[Tiger Al 0]

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One?

Probably not anymore than what it cost to send Hillary to Iraq when you consider all the secret service et al. Both were there for the same reasons, Congrats to troops and of course a photo op.

Was that Thanksgiving when she ate real chow with the troops while Bush paraded around with that delicious looking PLASTIC turkey on yet another photo-op? Thanks for reminding me about that one!

Nice way to dodge the point. Got a link for all that slime you are throwing around about the grub? Or is that more DNC Idiot's Guide to Talking Points?

President Bush's Baghdad turkey was for looking, not for eating.

In the most widely published image from his Thanksgiving day trip to Baghdad, the beaming president is wearing an Army workout jacket and surrounded by soldiers as he cradles a huge platter laden with a golden-brown turkey.

The bird is so perfect it looks as if it came from a food magazine, with bunches of grapes and other trimmings completing a Norman Rockwell image that evokes bounty and security in one of the most dangerous parts of the world.

But as a small sign of the many ways the White House maximized the impact of the 21/2-hour stop at the Baghdad airport, administration officials said yesterday that Bush picked up a decoration, not a serving plate.

LINK

You can now read my signature quote, MDM!!!

[TexasTiger 13,006]

Cite the specific lie or lies you are asserting.

Try these and start the spin cycle.

o In his April 1971 speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, John Kerry claimed that war crimes committed by the American military against Vietnamese civilians were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis..." War crimes in Vietnam were actually quite rare.

o Kerry claimed that war crimes were being committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." In fact, military personnel were warned that "if you disobey the rules of engagement, you can be tried and punished." War crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.

o Kerry charged that the war in Vietnam was a racist war, that "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." Research published in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor" and other sources shows that casualty rates for black and white soldiers during Vietnam closely matched the proportion of America's overall population represented by each race.

o Kerry claimed that Vietnam was "ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism..." Later in his remarks, Kerry responded to a question about what might happen to the South Vietnamese after our withdrawal with "So what I am saying is that yes, there will be some recrimination but far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America..." Yet according to historian Guenter Lewy in "America in Vietnam," "...the number of civilians killed deliberately by the VC is appallingly high. No counterpart to this death toll caused by communist terror tactics exists on the allied side."

o Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges, although none of the witnesses there were willing to sign depositions affirming their claims. Later investigators were unable to confirm any of the reported atrocities, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses had never been in Vietnam, had never been in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Keys

Tex, are you ignoring these lies of Mr. Kerry?

You haven't proven they're lies.

You haven't proven you have a brain yet either. What's your point?

blah, blah, blah, did, blah, you, blah, get, blah, an, blah, interpreter?

[CCTAU 3,342]

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One?

Probably not anymore than what it cost to send Hillary to Iraq when you consider all the secret service et al. Both were there for the same reasons, Congrats to troops and of course a photo op.

Was that Thanksgiving when she ate real chow with the troops while Bush paraded around with that delicious looking PLASTIC turkey on yet another photo-op? Thanks for reminding me about that one!

Nice way to dodge the point. Got a link for all that slime you are throwing around about the grub? Or is that more DNC Idiot's Guide to Talking Points?

President Bush's Baghdad turkey was for looking, not for eating.

In the most widely published image from his Thanksgiving day trip to Baghdad, the beaming president is wearing an Army workout jacket and surrounded by soldiers as he cradles a huge platter laden with a golden-brown turkey.

The bird is so perfect it looks as if it came from a food magazine, with bunches of grapes and other trimmings completing a Norman Rockwell image that evokes bounty and security in one of the most dangerous parts of the world.

But as a small sign of the many ways the White House maximized the impact of the 21/2-hour stop at the Baghdad airport, administration officials said yesterday that Bush picked up a decoration, not a serving plate.

LINK

You can now read my signature quote, MDM!!!

Just because it was a "decoration" does not make it plastic.

Now stick your sig where all of your opinions come from.

[Tiger Al 0]

I wonder how much that little photo-op cost you, me and the other taxpayers vs. a normal ride on Marine One?

Probably not anymore than what it cost to send Hillary to Iraq when you consider all the secret service et al. Both were there for the same reasons, Congrats to troops and of course a photo op.

Was that Thanksgiving when she ate real chow with the troops while Bush paraded around with that delicious looking PLASTIC turkey on yet another photo-op? Thanks for reminding me about that one!

Nice way to dodge the point. Got a link for all that slime you are throwing around about the grub? Or is that more DNC Idiot's Guide to Talking Points?

President Bush's Baghdad turkey was for looking, not for eating.

In the most widely published image from his Thanksgiving day trip to Baghdad, the beaming president is wearing an Army workout jacket and surrounded by soldiers as he cradles a huge platter laden with a golden-brown turkey.

The bird is so perfect it looks as if it came from a food magazine, with bunches of grapes and other trimmings completing a Norman Rockwell image that evokes bounty and security in one of the most dangerous parts of the world.

But as a small sign of the many ways the White House maximized the impact of the 21/2-hour stop at the Baghdad airport, administration officials said yesterday that Bush picked up a decoration, not a serving plate.

LINK

You can now read my signature quote, MDM!!!

Just because it was a "decoration" does not make it plastic.

Now stick your sig where all of your opinions come from.

The 1980s movie The Ploughman's Lunch took its title from an early example of what we have now come to know as spin. Ian McEwan's script took its central image from the fact that the bread-and-cheese snack that claimed to link yuppies in pubs to their ancestors who toiled on the soil was an invention of the contemporary advertising and catering trades. In Richard Eyre's film, this fraudulent food became a metaphor for political lying and pretence at the time of the Falklands war.

If anyone makes a similar film about the attack on Iraq, the title would now have to be The Plastic Turkey. In a revelation certain to be taught at schools of democracy and journalism for years to come, it has been revealed that the apparently appetizing turkey that President Bush carried towards beaming troops last week in Baghdad had been genetically modified to a degree that would lead even the most profit-hungry farmers to protest. The bird was the kind of model used by butchers and Hollywood set-dressers.

Following this disclosure, the president is, unlike his political prop, stuffed: with a gap in the storyboards for his re-election commercials. A picture intended to say to viewers "The Eagle Has Landed", in fact spelled out: "This Bird Never Flew."

The fakery went further. The hoax roast in the president's hands cannot even be claimed as a symbolic stand-in for the steaming birds that were actually served. Reports say that the US troops were given airline-style meals of pre-packaged meat. And the pretend chef had flown to Baghdad in an Air Force One that filed a fake flight-plan, pretending to be a small corporate jet.

LINK

[AUloggerhead 2,253]

I think the whole point of Bush going over there was to surpise the troops by celebrating Thanksgiving with them. In this respect, "Mission Accomplished." I doubt seriously if anyone expects the Commander in Chief to act as a waiter or food server in a case such as this, despite if the picture is staged or not. You must admit, the response from the troops over Bush's gesture was genuine. O.K. it was a photo op. So what? It worked to perfection.

Unlike this photo op: