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From Fox News, a big dose of dumb on hydroxychloroquine

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/23/why-are-fox-news-opinion-hosts-so-wrong-about-hydroxychloroquine/

April 23, 2020 at 10:32 a.m. EDT

Fox News host Tucker Carlson found another scandal on CNN. Several of the network’s people, including Wolf Blitzer, Jim Acosta and Brian Stelter, had issued words of caution to contextualize President Trump’s hype of hydroxychloroquine, an antimalarial drug touted by some folks as a treatment for covid-19. To showcase CNN’s message on the drug, Carlson on April 7 ran a series of clips from the network’s air, including this from Acosta: “Despite only having a background as a businessman, President Trump is offering free medical advice, urging Americans to load up on an unproven drug used for malaria patients.”

After sampling CNN’s skepticism, Carlson sneered: “Watching people in the media talk down a potentially lifesaving medicine because a politician they don’t like has endorsed it is probably the most shameful thing I, as someone who has done this for 20 years, I’ve ever seen. [It] is making a lot of us ashamed to work in the same profession as those people.”

“Those people” are being patient, not to mention professional. President Trump indeed “endorsed” hydroxychloroquine, setting up a schism in the world of cable news — those who issued scientifically strong warnings about that endorsement, and those who sought to buttress it. In the latter group we have Fox News opinion hosts.

Owing to the novelty of the coronavirus, there’s no data yet from a large-scale clinical trial to test the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine as either a treatment or prophylaxis for covid-19. There was a small French study that fueled a great deal of optimism, though it was criticized for “methodological issues.” There was a small Chinese study, too, that showed promise for the treatment. “Game changer” was the preferred term of Trump, even though top coronavirus adviser Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, cautioned that accounts of the drug’s utility were merely “anecdotal."

“Anecdotal,” however, was plenty sufficient for Fox News. The network gave wide rotation to the stories of Michigan state legislator Karen Whitsett and others who came away convinced that the drug had aided their recovery. Jim Santilli, a recovered covid-19 sufferer, told Fox News host Laura Ingraham on March 30 about his bout with the disease and how things improved after he was given hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin. “Jim, your condition turned around completely,” said Ingraham, “You had a miraculous — I mean you described as a miraculous recovery and yet people are just blowing it off and saying, ‘Oh, azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine — they’re not proven.’”

Cheerleading for the drug on Fox News was an all-hands-on-deck orchestration among the network’s opinion folks. There was almost too much of it to track, though Media Matters has issued a comprehensive guide. Lowlights include host Sean Hannity citing a doctor describing the risks of the drug as “nil” — in an interview with Trump; Ingraham saying that “anecdotal doesn’t really describe the findings of the world’s top researchers”; “Fox & Friends” co-host Ainsley Earhardt calling it a “miracle drug”; Carlson hosting hydroxychloroquine optimist Gregory Rigano and introducing him as an adviser to the Stanford University School of Medicine, though he is not; and so much other happy talk. The craze made it out of Fox News’s temporary home studios: Weeks ago, Ingraham, accompanied by two doctors, met with Trump about the drug.

The wondrous power of hydroxychloroquine was approaching Benghazi-levels of hype at Fox News, until an April pivot. Around April 16, according to an analysis by Media Matters, other topics began crowding out hydroxychloroquine mentions on the programs that had once promoted it. “In a five-day period from April 11 to April 15, the treatment was mentioned on the network 87 times. Over the next five days, April 16 to April 20, it was mentioned only 20 times — a 77% decrease in coverage,” noted the nonprofit. The falloff coincided with similar behavior by Trump himself, who had used his daily coronavirus briefings to hail his intuition regarding the drug.

Why? A Brazilian study of chloroquine was discontinued after patients registered “irregular heart rates that increased their risk of a potentially fatal heart arrhythmia,” according to an April 12 account in the New York Times. Another French study found that hydroxychloroquine wasn’t helpful in treating covid-19 patients. And an analysis of 368 covid-19 patients at U.S. Veterans Health Administration medical centers until April 11 punctured the optimism of Fox News and its favorite president. Whereas the death rate for patients that had taken hydroxychloroquine was 27.8 percent, the rate for those who hadn’t was 11.4 percent. Ventilation rates for those two groups were similar.

None of these studies provides the sort of evidence that health professionals consider robust, like a large double-blind trial. Nasia Safdar, a professor with the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health, says the current state of research, while not optimal, has inspired caution. “At the moment there’s no evidence to suggest that this is a harmless, helpful treatment, as was suggested by some,” says Safdar. The pitfalls of the studies to date, says Safdar, are “exactly why you need to wait for the science to demonstrate whether it works.”

Wait for science? Not when there’s a president to protect; not when there’s false hope to project; not when there’s this one guy out there who says hydroxychloroquine saved his life! And who’s going to say he’s wrong? The compulsion to seek an answer to something as devastating as the coronavirus, says Safdar, is understandable. “I think it’s a natural response whenever there’s a new and novel infection that carries a high death rate," she says. “Every doctor goes through this feeling of intense anxiety” related to the availability of and effectiveness of treatments.

It’s not shocking, of course, that Fox News hosts would team up with the president on public-health messaging, even if the consequences include shortages and generalized mayhem on the pharmaceutical market. The network’s top personalities — prime-timers like Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham, in addition to the morning crew of “Fox & Friends — have found their own trademarked ways of advancing the president’s agenda, with some notable exceptions.

What is gobsmacking is the network’s barren stupidity. An entire flotilla of Fox News anchors teamed up to goose the credibility of hydroxychloroquine, when they could/should have known that there were research projects and clinical trials in the offing. Those undertakings would surface within weeks or months. And they might very well undermine the message from Fox Newsers.

That’s what happened, though there will be more rigorous trial results in the months ahead. Fox News hosts proceeded with their promotions anyhow.

The shortsightedness raises a question among close Fox News watchers: Where was the Brain Room? That’s the network’s research hive, long cited on Fox News as a place that fishes hard facts from the world and dishes them out to the network’s various shows. Sometimes, however, there’s not a great demand for reality, as we learned during the Trump Ukraine scandal. While Hannity spun pro-Trump distortion after pro-Trump distortion, the Brain Room produced a Ukraine timeline of unfathomable brilliance and comprehensiveness. We’ve asked Fox News if the Brain Room provided input on the hydroxychloroquine matter, and we will update with any response.

As a 24/7 outlet, Fox News has on occasion counterprogrammed its own famous opinionators. In perhaps the most memorable such instance, a guest on Dana Perino’s daytime program on April 6 denounced the drug as a “quack cure” for covid-19. Moments of skepticism also arose here and there on other shows. On Wednesday morning, surgeon Mehmet Oz, better known as Dr. Oz, cited continued uncertainty about the drug and said definitive judgments should await the sort of trials that Fauci has emphasized. Network correspondent Jonathan Serrie covered the Veterans Health Administration test. And FoxNews.com posted a write-up on those results.

On balance, though, Fox News did something that defies even the elastic absurdity of contemporary American politics. It proved that there’s no Trump talking point too trivial, no Trump obsession too out-there, no Trump scientific betrayal too egregious to serve as the organizing principle behind endless and mindless Fox News segments. There’s nothing that these people cannot politicize.

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A comprehensive guide to Fox’s promotion of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine

As the coronavirus spread throughout the country in March, Fox News repeatedly promoted the antimalarial drug chloroquine and a derivative, hydroxychloroquine, as treatment and prophylaxis for COVID-19 -- even though neither drug is proved to be effective or approved by the Food and Drug Administration as a treatment for this novel coronavirus.

In a now-familiar sequence of events, President Donald Trump began promoting hydroxychloroquine seemingly after watching positive coverage about it on Fox. The network responded to Trump’s promotion with additional coverage of the drug, and host Laura Ingraham even touted her ability to influence Trump’s thinking on its use. Trump has repeatedly contradicted his own medical experts, including Dr. Anthony Fauci, in making unsupported claims about the drug’s effectiveness.

Hydroxychloroquine sulfate and some versions of chloroquine phosphate are approved by the FDA to treat malaria, but neither drug has been approved to treat COVID-19. The FDA did, however, issue an “emergency use authorization” on March 28 after Fox News promoted the drugs for weeks. The FDA’s authorization enables doctors to prescribe these drugs to coronavirus patients under limited circumstances, but former FDA leaders have criticized the decision, noting that it could actually impede clinical trials, contribute to drug shortages, and undermine the FDA’s scientific authority, while other experts have warned of the risks of off-label drug use.

Evidence supporting the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine is largely anecdotal and mixed, and advocates of the drugs mainly point to flawed studies from France and China to promote their use. (Fox has paid most attention to hydroxychloroquine, which is also commonly used to treat lupus and arthritis, as a potential coronavirus treatment and prophylactic, particularly when used in conjunction with the antibiotic azithromycin, known as Z-pak.) One or both of these drugs may eventually prove effective in treating the coronavirus, but currently there are no results of their effectiveness for COVID-19 from randomized controlled clinical trials, the gold standard for measuring the effectiveness of a treatment. (At publication time, the National Institutes of Health listed 399 clinical trials involving potential treatments for COVID-19, and less than a third of these trials involve hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine.)

Fox’s single-minded promotion of these drugs has far outstripped any evidence supporting their effectiveness for coronavirus treatments:

  • During a two-week span between March 23 and April 6, Fox hosts and guests promoted hydroxychloroquine nearly 300 times.
  • Of these nearly 300 mentions, the vast majority came from four Fox shows: The Ingraham Angle (84 promotional mentions), Fox & Friends (76, including Fox & Friends First and Fox & Friends Weekend), Hannity (53), and Tucker Carlson Tonight (22).
  • Host Laura Ingraham, who was one of the first Fox personalities to introduce her audience to hydroxychloroquine, said that “there are stories of people saying that they've had this Lazarus effect by using this drug.” Weeks later, Ingraham reportedly brought two doctors who had appeared on her show to the White House to discuss the drug with Trump directly.
  • Fox prime-time host and unofficial Trump adviser Sean Hannity has frequently told his audience that he would take these drugs if he contracted COVID-19.
  • Hannity has also used his radio show to promote these drugs, and he even went so far as to encourage his audience to stock up on chloroquine if they have, or are “at risk” of contracting, COVID-19.
  • Television personality Dr. Mehmet Oz has been one of the most persistent promoters of hydroxychloroquine on Fox, and Trump reportedly told his aides to seek Oz’s advice on treating coronavirus patients. According to Media Matters’ internal database, Oz has made at least 23 appearances on Fox News weekday programming between March 12 and April 7 to discuss hydroxychloroquine.

Fox’s and Trump’s promotion of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine has dangerous consequences. After Trump’s statements, lupus and arthritis patients who use hydroxychloroquine for its FDA-approved purpose have faced drug shortages as doctors and patients started hoarding it, and some people have mistakenly taken harmful chemicals that contained the same active ingredients as the drugs to try to prevent the coronavirus. The CIA has warned that hydroxychloroquine could have dangerous side effects and has urged employees not to take the drug outside of medical studies. Experts have also expressed concern that focusing on one particular drug could blind researchers to other promising treatments.

Below is a comprehensive guide to all the ways Fox News recklessly promoted chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine during critical weeks of the crisis, from March 12 to April 7, 2020. Fox hosts, contributors, and guests relied on anecdotal evidence, dismissed possible side effects, rejected the need for long-term clinical trials, suggested to their audiences that they would personally use the drugs, and lashed out at anyone who raised concerns about Trump’s promotion of these unproven treatments.

https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/comprehensive-guide-foxs-promotion-hydroxychloroquine-and-chloroquine

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Fox News hosts try to discredit study that finds no benefit from unproven drug therapy for COVID-19

After touting a discredited French study to hype the drug, Fox hosts criticize "shockingly irresponsible" research

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/23/fox-news-hosts-try-to-discredit-study-that-finds-no-benefit-from-unproven-drug-therapy-for-covid-19/

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I am confused again. Did Trump make the medication over the counter so that anyone could get it? Did he give himself an honorary MD degree and start writing prescriptions for it? Do you think that physicians wrote prescriptions for the medication just because Trump praised the drug? I contend that Trump said yet another thing that he knows very little about. But I am not sure how that really matters here.

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2 hours ago, Grumps said:

I am confused again. Did Trump make the medication over the counter so that anyone could get it? Did he give himself an honorary MD degree and start writing prescriptions for it? Do you think that physicians wrote prescriptions for the medication just because Trump praised the drug? I contend that Trump said yet another thing that he knows very little about. But I am not sure how that really matters here.

He hyped it.  When Dear Leader hypes something, it gets legs, especially from Trump sychophants - like Fox News - and other MAGAs who are apparently deficient in cognitive thinking.

Does that help?

Edited by homersapien
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Trump suggests injecting coronavirus patients with light or disinfectants to cure them

After an administration official presented findings from a lab study that showed direct sunlight helps to kill the coronavirus, Trump had ideas.

“Supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way,” Trump said to Bill Bryan, the undersecretary for science and technology at the Homeland Security Department during the evening White House briefing. He urged him to test it.

The president then mused that perhaps bleach or another disinfectant can also be injected into the body to kill the virus.

“Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets on the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs,” the president said.

He encouraged Bryan to test that theory too, but noted the government should involve medical doctors on that one.

Trump also reminded everyone that he had once suggested that heat would kill the virus.

“I just threw it out as a suggestion, but it seems like that’s the case, because when it’s on a surface, that would last for a long time. When that surface is outside, it goes very quickly. It dies very quickly with the sun,” Trump said.

Later, the president again mentioned that Bryan should test whether light and heat could be used to cure the coronavirus.

“If you could and maybe you can, maybe you can’t. Again, I say maybe you can. Maybe you can’t. I’m not a doctor. I’m like a person that has a good you know what,” Trump said, pointing to his head.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/04/22/coronavirus-latest-news-2/#link-Q57IYEMZONHGHANC5XIAZENJ3M

Edited by homersapien

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7 hours ago, homersapien said:

Fox’s and Trump’s promotion of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine has dangerous consequences. After Trump’s statements, lupus and arthritis patients who use hydroxychloroquine for its FDA-approved purpose have faced drug shortages as doctors and patients started hoarding it

Find this pretty amazing. Obviously you agree with everything you post. Are you saying there is a shortage of the drug for approved purposes due to doctors listening to Fox and Trump?

      

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Trump team wanted 'nationwide' access to malaria drugs, ousted vaccine chief claims

Dr. Rick Bright says administration’s position would have offered little physician oversight for unproven Covid-19 treatments.

The Trump administration pushed for nationwide access to a malaria drug touted by President Donald Trump as a Covid-19 treatment “with limited physician oversight,” according to a person familiar with the allegations of Dr. Rick Bright, the HHS vaccine chief who was ousted from his position earlier this week.

Bright felt such a move was dangerous and responded by pushing for more clinical trials, the person said, but, under pressure from his superiors in the health department, eventually agreed to sign off on an emergency use authorization that allowed the Trump administration to acquire tens of millions of doses of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine and distribute the medicines to some patients hospitalized for Covid-19.

Bright, who was pushed out this week as head of the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, is now alleging that he was sidelined after pushing back against the administration's demands.

The Department of Health and Human Services did not immediately respond to request for comment. POLITICO reported last month that career health officials had concerns about how Trump’s fixation on malaria drugs was undermining the nation’s response to the Covid-19 outbreak and that the White House was pressuring career health officials to prioritize the drug despite scant evidence. The drug was also championed by Trump allies like Oracle founder Larry Ellison and an array of Fox News contributors.

Bright’s lawyers on Thursday said that they would soon file a whistleblower complaint with the HHS inspector general and decried what they said were Trump administration efforts to undercut Bright’s credibility.

“In our filing we will make clear that Dr. Bright was sidelined for one reason only — because he resisted efforts to provide unfettered access to potentially dangerous drugs, including chloroquine, a drug promoted by the Administration as a panacea, but which is untested and possibly deadly when used improperly,” Debra S. Katz and Lisa J. Banks said in a statement. “The facts and concerns raised by Dr. Bright are compelling and well-documented and soon they will be public.”

Administration officials had discussed removing Bright from his post last year amid management complaints, according to interviews that POLITICO conducted in January, prior to the Covid-19 outbreak.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/23/trump-vaccine-malaria-bright-coronavirus-205414

 

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10 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Find this pretty amazing. Obviously you agree with everything you post. Are you saying there is a shortage of the drug for approved purposes due to doctors listening to Fox and Trump?

      

Yes.

It was one of the consequences of Trump 's hyping it, with the help of Fox.

(And fyi, I know someone with with Lupus.)

What exactly do you find "amazing" about it?  Did you bother to read any reference links? (They are underlined.)

Edited by homersapien

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1 minute ago, homersapien said:

What exactly do you find "amazing" about it?  Did you bother to read the reference link? (It's underlined.)

Just find it hard to believe we have doctors or prescribers that that would treat any virus due to anything presented to them by Fox, CNN, ABC, CBS...... or a president. 

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6 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Just find it hard to believe we have doctors or prescribers that that would treat any virus due to anything presented to them by Fox, CNN, ABC, CBS...... or a president. 

Yeah, right. 

It's always somebody else's fault when it comes to Trump's mistakes. And you apparently don't know the difference between "presenting" and "hyping".  

What a MAGA you are - a passive aggressive MAGA, but still a MAGA. :no:

 

 

After Trump's statements about hydroxychloroquine, lupus and arthritis patients face drug shortage

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/health/hydroxychloroquine-shortage-lupus-arthritis/index.html

Edited by homersapien

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8 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Yeah, right.  It's always somebody else's fault when it comes to Trump's mistakes.

Wish the man would shut the hell up when speaking of treatments. Just saying I find it hard to believe the medical community would prescribe based on the media  and  a president. 

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40 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Trump suggests injecting coronavirus patients with light or disinfectants to cure them

After an administration official presented findings from a lab study that showed direct sunlight helps to kill the coronavirus, Trump had ideas.

“Supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way,” Trump said to Bill Bryan, the undersecretary for science and technology at the Homeland Security Department during the evening White House briefing. He urged him to test it.

The president then mused that perhaps bleach or another disinfectant can also be injected into the body to kill the virus.

“Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets on the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs,” the president said.

He encouraged Bryan to test that theory too, but noted the government should involve medical doctors on that one.

Trump also reminded everyone that he had once suggested that heat would kill the virus.

“I just threw it out as a suggestion, but it seems like that’s the case, because when it’s on a surface, that would last for a long time. When that surface is outside, it goes very quickly. It dies very quickly with the sun,” Trump said.

Later, the president again mentioned that Bryan should test whether light and heat could be used to cure the coronavirus.

“If you could and maybe you can, maybe you can’t. Again, I say maybe you can. Maybe you can’t. I’m not a doctor. I’m like a person that has a good you know what,” Trump said, pointing to his head.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/04/22/coronavirus-latest-news-2/#link-Q57IYEMZONHGHANC5XIAZENJ3M

 

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16 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Wish the man would shut the hell up when speaking of treatments. Just saying I find it hard to believe the medical community would prescribe based on the media  and  a president. 

Really?  

You don't think it's possible for an MD to be incompetent,  guilty of malpractice, just a money grubbing con man (much less a criminal)? 

That seems a little naive' to me.

And no one said anything about the medical "community".  It doesn't take a "community" to create a run on a particular drug that may not be all that widely used.

Edited by homersapien

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1 minute ago, homersapien said:

Really?   You don't think it's possible for an MD to be a money grubbing con man, much less a criminal? 

So you are saying that criminals with MD credentials  snatched up the drug after it was hyped by Trump? 

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14 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

So you are saying that criminals with MD credentials  snatched up the drug after it was hyped by Trump? 

Not exactly.  (But what a weaseling, begging the question response!)

First, I was responding to your naive' incredulity that the "medical community" could prescribe unproven drugs  - as though they were incapable of it.  As you note, I said that range of "capability" extends to criminal, which is fact.

Second, I am saying that there are enough MDs - regardless of where they fall on the human ethical spectrum - to cause a run on hydroxychloroquine because Trump and others (like Fox) were hyping it as a miracle cure.

Is this really so hard for you to understand or are you just weaseling for fun?

Regardless, keep it up. I am enjoying it. ;)

Edited by homersapien
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11 hours ago, homersapien said:

He hyped it.  When Dear Leader hypes something, it gets legs, especially from Trump sychophants - like Fox News - and other MAGAs who are apparently deficient in cognitive thinking.

Does that help?

I agree with you in theory, but Hydoxychloriquine requires a prescription from someone with prescribing authority. Do you REALLY think that physicians base their prescribing on what Trump or Fox says?

EDIT: Never mind, I now see that you DO think that enough prescribers base their prescribing habits on the whims of medical idiots like Trump to cause a shortage of the medication.

As a funny (to me) side note: your comment "I have a friend with lupus" implying that you therefore have knowledge of hydroxychloroquine is like me saying "I have a friend who is black" to imply that I am not racist. 😃

Edited by Grumps
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2 minutes ago, alexava said:

I am pretty sure that Lysol already has warnings against ingestion or internal use.

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Pretty astonishing that the MAGA set continues to defend King Orange Jackass's incessant verbal defecation with "Well you should know better than to listen to the President."

Or at least it should be astonishing. But I guess we've learned by now that there's no bottom to that gutter. 

 

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7 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Pretty astonishing that the MAGA set continues to defend King Orange Jackass's incessant verbal defecation with "Well you should know better than to listen to the President."

Or at least it should be astonishing. But I guess we've learned by now that there's no bottom to that gutter. 

 

It truly fascinates me that someone as intelligent as compassionate as you can completely miss the point so easily. Trump almost constantly says REALLY stupid things. It seems perfectly reasonable to call him a jackass for saying the things he does.

Do you not think it is also stupid to go bat***t crazy when Trump says something stupid that SHOULD have no effect on anything???? If physicians and nurse practitioners write prescriptions for hydroxychloroquine because of something that Trump says then THEY are even more stupid than Trump is. Similarly, if people inject or drink Lysol because they think that Trump said it was a good idea, then THEY also are even more stupid than Trump.

I don't consider myself to be defending Trump. He has NO BUSINESS talking about things he has no knowledge of. But he will continue to do so because that is who he is. And who he is is tragic. We can't change who he is, but we can have some affect on those around us. Encouraging hate is NOT HELPING. Getting all worked up because Trump says that hydroxychloroquine is a medical cure for COVID-19 doesn't help anything. Similarly, thinking Trump's off-the-cuff remarks about UV light and disinfectants is a big deal is not helping either.

But you have us (meaning those who don't agree with you on everything) all figured out. We are what is wrong with this country. We are the scum in the deepest part of the gutter. Maybe one day we can strive to be as full of hate as y'all are. Then we can all be happy,right?

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8 minutes ago, Grumps said:

It truly fascinates me that someone as intelligent as compassionate as you can completely miss the point so easily. Trump almost constantly says REALLY stupid things. It seems perfectly reasonable to call him a jackass for saying the things he does.

Do you not think it is also stupid to go bat***t crazy when Trump says something stupid that SHOULD have no effect on anything???? If physicians and nurse practitioners write prescriptions for hydroxychloroquine because of something that Trump says then THEY are even more stupid than Trump is. Similarly, if people inject or drink Lysol because they think that Trump said it was a good idea, then THEY also are even more stupid than Trump.

I don't consider myself to be defending Trump. He has NO BUSINESS talking about things he has no knowledge of. But he will continue to do so because that is who he is. And who he is is tragic. We can't change who he is, but we can have some affect on those around us. Encouraging hate is NOT HELPING. Getting all worked up because Trump says that hydroxychloroquine is a medical cure for COVID-19 doesn't help anything. Similarly, thinking Trump's off-the-cuff remarks about UV light and disinfectants is a big deal is not helping either.

But you have us (meaning those who don't agree with you on everything) all figured out. We are what is wrong with this country. We are the scum in the deepest part of the gutter. Maybe one day we can strive to be as full of hate as y'all are. Then we can all be happy,right?

Your normalizing, devil's advocacy, and victim blaming isn't nearly as far from defending and supporting as you want it to be.

Also, that bolded bit? AYFKM? The guy you voted for offered to pay the legal fees of anyone who beat up a Lib.

And for God's sake, quit with the persecution complex. You're better than that. 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Your normalizing, devil's advocacy, and victim blaming isn't nearly as far from defending and supporting as you want it to be.

Also, that bolded bit? AYFKM? The guy you voted for offered to pay the legal fees of anyone who beat up a Lib.

And for God's sake, quit with the persecution complex. You're better than that. 

 

 

 

If you are implying that someone who injects or drinks Lysol as being the victim then I overestimated you.

I never said that y'all are as full of hate as Trump, did I?

Fine. I'll go out and buy a MAGA hat. Thanks for your support, I AM better than that.

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