The Moral and Strategic Calculus of Voting for Joe Biden to Defeat Trump — or Not

[DKW 86 7,419]

 

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The Moral and Strategic Calculus of Voting for Joe Biden to Defeat Trump — or Not

Just the Biden part, this is a LLLOOONNNGGG Article 

 

...IT IS IN contemplating all of the above that the emergence of Joe Biden as the Democratic Party’s presumptive choice to take on Trump is a deeply disturbing and risky response to the threats we face. It is easy to underestimate Biden’s chance of winning in November. Biden is a terrible candidate in many ways, but it is possible that “I’m not Trump” combined with Biden having been Obama’s vice president will appeal to enough of the population to win not only the popular vote (a virtual certainty) but the Electoral College — especially if the party keeps him under wraps until the final stretch, as appears to be the strategy. Still, that seems to be a dangerous gamble given what is at stake.

There is also another factor that must not be ignored: Republicans are masters of voter suppression and disenfranchisement. That, combined with Trump’s core belief that corruption isn’t corrupt if he does it places an ominous cloud over the election’s integrity before it even occurs. And we know that the pandemic will cast a long enough shadow over normal life that there will be plenty of opportunities for irregularities.

Biden has an abominable public policy record on a wide range of issues. He has a penchant for lying — about his role in the civil rights movement and about being arrested in apartheid South Africa. He continues to lie and mislead about his support for the war in Iraq, the most consequential foreign policy decision of the post-Vietnam era. He has been accused by eight women of misconduct, including one allegation of very serious sexual assault by his former Senate staffer Tara Reade. Biden’s cognitive health and mental acuity is, to say the least, questionable, particularly when you compare his current performance with videos from just a few years ago. He frequently rambles without a clear point, forgets what office he is running for, and has to rely on teleprompters and notes to make it through interviews and speeches without saying something embarrassing. In numerous interactions with voters, Biden has poked their chests in an aggressive manner; told an immigrant rights activist to “vote for Trump”; called voters childish names; and threatened a union worker in Detroit, telling the man to stop objecting to Biden pointing his finger in his face unless the worker “want to go outside with me.” Let’s not even discuss the tale of his showdown with a rusty razor-wielding “Corn Pop” at the pool. Trump’s temperament is frightening, but Biden isn’t exactly a cool head who exudes competence or confidence.

Liberals may poo poo the whole Hunter Biden-Burisma-Ukraine-China attacks from Trump, but this is going to be a problem in the general election. On many of the key issues where Democrats could attack Trump, Biden is going to be virtually incapacitated by his own skeletons. What Sen. Elizabeth Warren did to Mike Bloomberg at a February debate would be impossible for Biden to do to Trump. “You have more allegations of sexual assault than I do, Donald,” is not a good line. “Your sons have profited off the presidency more than my son did off my vice presidency” — also not a winning zinger. And don’t think for a moment that Trump won’t hammer away on Biden’s Iraq War vote and his trade policies. The Democratic primary is not the general election.

It’s always worth remembering that Biden was picked in 2008 to make Obama less threatening to moderates — so we can’t even bank on a return to Obama’s brand of neoliberalism.

There is no point to going through and listing all of the terrible aspects of Biden’s career, his policy record, his mental stamina, or his substantial failures to make himself visible or consistently cogent since securing the presumptive nomination. All of this is going to be put on display for the next six months. The Democratic Party and the voters in the roughly 50 percent of primaries that were held have committed our fate to Biden’s candidacy. Obama and other senior party leaders, major news organizations, and a lot of money deployed to attack Sen. Bernie Sanders also played a role in manufacturing this reality. Sanders ending his campaign and vowing to support Biden leaves people with two viable candidates on the ballot. Barring a health crisis or death of one of these older men, the only two candidates with enough public support to win the presidency will be Donald Trump and Joe Biden.

What we get with Trump is as clear as it is terrifying. What we get with Biden, in his current form, is less apparent. Biden will have a team of competent (for better and worse) technocrats and, in all likelihood, an incredibly influential vice president and an unelected chief of staff running the show. Biden’s administration will also include appointments aimed at throwing some bones to progressives and likely other Cabinet appointments that recognize the growing influence of progressive ideas. It will, without a doubt, also be riddled with a disproportionate number of hawkish, corporatist Democratic apparatchiks. It will be an administration that does the bidding of Wall Street, believes in bloated war budgets, and will put a friendlier face on the worst excesses of empire. It’s always worth remembering that Biden was picked in 2008 to make Obama less threatening to moderates — so we can’t even bank on a return to Obama’s brand of neoliberalism. But there will be policy areas where some victories may be possible for a well-organized and militant left willing to take Biden on. Such a dynamic wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world and would be better for more people than a second Trump term in virtually every tangible way.

Biden isn’t great on many issues that motivate young voters. His health care plan keeps the profit-driven system intact, and it will result in millions of Americans remaining uninsured. His policy to confront massive student and consumer debt is anemic. Biden’s climate plan is uninspiring and generally milquetoast when weighed against the severity of the crisis the planet faces, though this is an area in which he might be susceptible to pressure from activists. Some of his foreign policy positions are downright disturbing, if not explicitly right-wing. The latest Biden campaign ad is a fearmongering attack on China and an effort to outbid Trump’s xenophobic rhetoric. Biden’s long record indicates that he could prove more inclined to authorize military interventions than Trump, who has been quite belligerent himself, without following through on most of his threats. Biden is almost certainly going to start and continue wars, impose deadly economic sanctions, and support or enact regime change efforts.

There is an abundance of justification to oppose a Biden presidency. And principled people are right to ring loud alarms over Biden’s record, policies, and some of his personal conduct. At the same time, it is not honest to imply there would be no difference between a Biden and Trump administration.

The Obama-Biden administration’s immigration policy has now been dwarfed in awfulness by Trump, but in its own right it operated as a cruel, mass deportation machine that also separated families. During the campaign, Biden has responded to extraordinary activist pressure and eventually began to carefully distance himself from the record of the “deporter in chief,” as Obama was labeled by immigrant rights activists. When pressed on the mass deportations under Obama, Biden acknowledged that deporting people without criminal records was a “big mistake.” At a Democratic debate, Biden was asked whether he would resume Obama’s torrid pace of deportations. “Absolutely not,” he said, adding that he was vice president, not president, drawing a rebuke from Julián Castro, who observed accurately that Biden was content to bathe in the glow of his former Obama boss while looking to sidestep responsibility for his more unpopular policies. At the same time, Biden’s campaign has made a sweeping series of pledges that he could implement as president that would potentially protect millions of vulnerable people. On immigration, the alternative to that is four more years of Trump adviser Stephen Miller, an extremist nut who shouldn’t be allowed within 100 feet of a consequential decision-making process.

We are not actually being asked to vote for Biden as the candidate, because the Biden we see is a shell of his former self. We are being asked to vote for a spin-off of the Obama show.

Biden has pledged to immediately lift the Muslim travel ban, as well as other racist immigration and asylum policies Trump has put in place. It is also worth noting that toward the end of the Obama administration, under pressure from Black Lives Matter activists, Obama placed a dozen city police forces under Department of Justice consent decrees in response to police killings and other abuses. Trump cannot be pressured by BLM, but Biden can.

Biden has a troubling record on Iran, including his support for deadly sanctions, but he has emphatically said he would reenter the Iran nuclear agreement, which is also no small matter. Similarly, Biden has been politically forced to denounce the genocidal Saudi war against Yemen, despite the fact that it was initiated under the Obama-Biden administration. He has also had to publicly accept that viewing Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman as an unsavory murderer is now widely held by many Democrats, including centrist figures. Remarkably, Biden has vowed to turn Saudi Arabia into “a pariah.” That’s an incredible statement given the long bipartisan love affair with the kingdom’s despots and raises all sorts of questions about what that would mean if Biden is elected.

Among the wild cards of a Biden administration will be the issue of whether he has the actual mental stamina to govern, or if he is going to be frequently disoriented and infrequently seen or heard. Setting aside the protestations of people who pretend they don’t see exactly what everyone else does when Biden speaks in public, we are not actually being asked to vote for Biden as the candidate, because the Biden we see is a shell of his former self. We are being asked to vote for a spin-off of the Obama show, a cast of familiar characters and a few exciting new additions who would take charge of the executive branch, without the popular star of the original show among the visible cast. The fact that the Democrats have forced through a candidate that many people don’t believe is fully functional and will rely on the strength of “the team” assembled around him is a pretty grim statement about the state of democracy in the U.S. If Biden is the best the Democrats have to offer in the face of Trump, the system is rotten.

So what should people who want Trump gone but cannot stand Biden do? First of all, no one should be shamed for letting their conscience dictate their vote or decision not to vote. (Full disclosure: I always vote.) Our system is dominated by corporate influence, big money, and the skewed rules of a default duopoly, and it actively fights to prevent third parties from receiving federal matching funds, joining debates, or gaining ballot access. There is no mandatory voting in the U.S., roughly 40 percent of Americans do not belong to either major political party, and people have a right to register their dissatisfaction with the entire system by not voting. In an atmosphere where tens of millions of U.S. citizens choose not to vote, shaming the minuscule number of people who vote for the Green Party is a disgrace. There are hundreds of thousands of voters whose principled belief is that breaking the two-party stranglehold on U.S. democracy is the only path to meaningful systemic change. Votes for Jill Stein or Howie Hawkins are not being taken away from corporate Democrats. Those votes belong to the people who cast them and they have a right to vote however they choose, and the candidates they support have a right to run for office.

It is also an understandable and morally principled decision to say, “I believe Tara Reade was sexually assaulted by Joe Biden, and I will not vote for a rapist.” It is an understandable and morally principled position to say, “I will not vote for anyone who supported the war against Iraq.” None of these people’s votes belong to Biden or Hillary Clinton or the Democratic Party or Twitter mobs — and they are not votes for Trump.

In an atmosphere where tens of millions of U.S. citizens choose not to vote, shaming the minuscule number of people who vote for the Green Party is a disgrace.

Ultimately, however, given the abomination of our two-party system, progressive voters are forced to make not just a moral but a strategic choice with their votes. Recognizing that Biden is a terrible candidate and being honest about that but voting for him in an effort to prevent Trump from further consolidating his agenda is a strategically sound position. This is ultimately what the majority of Sanders supporters will do, just as they did in 2016. It certainly has a better chance of improving the country and the world than enthusiastically pledging to vote for Biden while closing your ears to everything that is wrong about him and his record. Voters in swing states, where voting for a candidate other than Biden or not voting at all may help tip the balance to Trump, face a more consequential moral and strategic choice than people in New York or California. In 2004, the Green Party candidate told his supporters to vote their conscience in swing states, including if they believed they needed to hold their nose and vote for John Kerry to defeat Bush.

If you believe that progressives or leftists should be “bending the knee” for Biden by promising right this second that they will vote for him in six months and that they will never utter an inconvenient fact about him or express their anger with their meager Election Day options, please show them all of your work fighting for Medicare for All, for ending the carceral state, for serious radical action on climate change, your work opposing the most dangerous aspects of the Obama-Biden administration, including on issues of war, immigration, and, yes, health care.

Many of the social and political movements that backed Sanders were populated by people in the crosshairs of the Trump administration. It was an incredibly diverse coalition of supporters and drew millions of primary voters in 2016 and 2020. Its backbone was young voters, including young African Americans, Latinos, students, immigrants, and independents. These groups and many of Sanders’s supporters have spent nearly four years fighting Trump nonstop. Many of them organized against Obama’s troubling policies before that. That should be commended not scorned. You want to label these people Trump supporters because they are intensely disturbed by the corporatist candidate you have chosen to take on Trump? Show them your work on the issues they care about, explain what Biden’s policies are on those issues and make the most convincing case you can for why they should vote for him. Better yet, explain to them how you are fighting to make Biden’s platform one that even minimally pretends to want their votes.

In the bigger picture, Sanders organized the most significant challenge to the Democratic Party’s centrist and center-right establishment since Jesse Jackson ran twice for president in the 1980s. Unlike Ralph Nader’s independent runs for president, Sanders attempted to deliver sweeping change within the Democratic Party’s own framework. He fought against an extremely hostile corporate media environment and some pretty vile smear campaigns, where he was compared to the coronavirus, his supporters were called brown shirts, and his primary victories described as akin to the Nazi invasion of France on liberal TV networks. Despite the powerful chorus of red-baiting and lies, Sanders still came extremely close to pulling off a victory.

Biden was usually the frontrunner and always the favorite, even though he came close to being defeated by Sanders early on. The establishment fiercely defended its territory in an effort capped off by the last-minute secret diplomacy from Obama ahead of Super Tuesday to pressure other candidates and the party to coalesce around Biden. Ultimately, the party’s primary voters, at the crucial moment, threw their weight behind a name they know and who served as vice president of an administration they trusted. These voters should not be collectively shamed either. Most of them are not party cogs, but people genuinely scared of what four more years of Trump will mean for their survival, particularly older African American voters.

The traditional, moderate, and right-wing forces within the Democratic Party united and won the primary battle. Sanders may have surrendered too early, but there is little value to debating that right now or wasting energy attacking Sanders.

Most people on the left who oppose Biden but also view Trump as the gravest danger are going to vote against Trump by voting for Biden. But those who disagree with that strategy do not support Trump.
The war for the future of the Democratic Party is intensifying. There is a possibility of a fracture or at least more clearly defined factions within the party. There will be serious discussions around forming a new party that isn’t the Green Party, but rather an outgrowth of the “Not Me, Us” framework of the Sanders campaign and the growing popularity of groups like the Justice Democrats, the Sunrise Movement, prison abolitionists, immigrant rights groups, and Democratic Socialists of America. It would be a great thing for this country to have a democratic socialist party grow, one that runs serious political campaigns. We have already seen early stage efforts at this with mixed results. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez understands the need to engage in strategic partnerships with establishment Democrats to achieve meaningful policy change and strengthen the areas of common ground. But there will need to be a lot more like-minded politicians elected for the strategy to succeed. This primary has shaken the Democratic establishment to its core, and that is a good thing and should be built on.

But none of that is going to happen before November.

Some Sanders supporters who are deeply concerned by the candidacy of Biden have said he can have their vote but not their soul. For many people that will be their strategic rationale. For others, it will be a question of individual or collective morality in the face of Trump’s horrors. Leftist voters in swing states shoulder a greater moral burden than the rest of us, and many will decide to vote against Trump by pulling the lever for Biden.

There are also very vocal opponents of Biden who are fed up and are flat out going to refuse to vote for him. They recognize that the opposite of Trump is not Biden. They want a society where free health care is a right and wars are ended, where everyone has housing and work that pays livable wages, where you don’t amass a mountain of debt to get an education, and one that treats immigrants and workers with dignity and defends a woman’s absolute right to choose. They want the racist justice system dismantled and ICE to be abolished. They believe we are in a climate emergency and that Biden is a part of the problem. Mainstream Democrats tell them they want much of that too and electing Biden is a strategic step in that direction or that President Biden will be more susceptible to progressive pressure. They reject that. They don’t believe that forcing a choice between two bad candidates is right, even if one is admittedly worse. Electing Biden might solve some problems, but it also could result in a strengthening of the far right in the U.S. and could produce a worse threat than Trump in 2024. A Biden administration, they believe, will undoubtedly be a massive corporate-friendly juggernaut that wages military and economic wars and, for them, voting in the affirmative for that is a bridge too far. And many of these people hold the Democratic Party responsible for Trump because of the terrible campaign it ran in 2016, so trying to convince them to buy into the same strategy twice is a losing battle. They are tired of being Democrats’ cheap dates — treated with contempt, offered few and paltry concessions, and expected to go along. As a strategic matter, at this juncture, they regard supporting Biden as tantamount to telling Democrats to continue to take them for granted.

If Democrats want to try to win them over, they should use the next six months to show them you take their concerns about 2016 seriously and map out the ways this campaign is different. Most people on the left who oppose Biden but also view Trump as the gravest danger are going to vote against Trump by voting for Biden. But those who disagree with that strategy do not support Trump. For them, “He’s not Trump” is not a gamble worth taking. The onus is on the Biden campaign and its supporters to make their case to every eligible voter in this country and earn their votes. No one should be taken for granted.

 

[johnnyAU 3,630]

How some of these folks will react...

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

How some of these folks will react...

Huh?  I haven't seen anyone on here give a full throated endorsement of Biden.  We're all pretty much in the same boat of "He's boring, has flaws, and that's fine because that's what we need right now."

This idea that any part of the Democratic party must capitulate to the progressive movement is a pile of horse ****.  2016 and 2018 should have taught everyone that winning the suburbs and the over 65 vote is the way to win elections.  You know what two voting blocs are driving Biden's large lead right now?  The suburbs and the over 65 crowd.  Progressives didn't show up to the polls in 2016, but they aren't the ones that cost Hillary.  It was traditionally Democratic voters staying home because she sucked as a candidate.  Seriously, just look at the African-American vote totals in Wisconsin vs previous election years as an example of what I'm talking about.  Those voters came home in those same states (looking at you rust belt) in 2018 and appear to be doing the same if you believe current polling.  Not to mention they are surging Biden ahead in Florida, Ohio, Arizona, and even into a current tie in Texas.

The problem I've seen with progressives is this: they don't vote in large scale numbers.  They'll whine and complain online, but just look at this year's primary as a case study.  Bernie received far less support this year than in 2016, even in places that you would think are progressive strongholds.  Hell, Bernie still received about 3M fewer votes than Hillary in the 2016 primary.

The Democratic party moving forward has an opportunity to take a stranglehold on Washington.  Flipping places like the aforementioned states in the Senate would be huge for them.  To do that, it needs to be more centrist because center-right to center-left is where about 70% of the country currently sits.  Republicans have drifted further and further right with each passing year, leaving many of their constituents behind.  The worst thing the Democratic party could do is pulled further left by folks like Bernie and AOC.  They have some good ideas, but their governing philosophy is dangerous and at odds with what a vast majority of Americans want.

Essentially, the OP article is not one based in a reality backed by numbers.  It's one based on pure emotion, and that isn't a long term winning strategy in politics.

[DKW 86 7,419]

We'll see. We have people hurting like hell in America right at this moment. Healthcare, Minimum Wage, Education, etc etc etc.

If you think the Corporate Democrats are going to do anything to help those folks, you are stoned. Just look at the Summit. And if Progressives dont mean anything, than please quit trying to shame them into voting for Biden. Just stop. Afterall, they are "irrelevant." Already got the coalition built and Biden is already President, apparently. The Democrats already had a stranglehold on DC in 2009-2010. Did any of their Masters on Wall Street get arrested after the 2008 Implosion? Tried? Convicted? Hell they werent even Investigated. SSDD. What would have been different if the Republicans had been in power? Nothing.

As for writing off the Progressives? Sounds just like 2016 to me.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

I'm not shaming anyone into voting for Biden.  Vote how you feel you need to vote.  But your anger, while somewhat justified, is far from the political mainstream of this country.  I also think many issues progressives complain about are, quite frankly, short sighted and against the American way, particularly in their efforts to stunt capitalism. 

Progressives and their counterparts on the right are on the fringes of our political spectrum.   Their voices are needed.  But to use a football analogy, they are currently like Boise State or UCF.  Will they pull the big upset from time to time?  Sure.  But they don't have the numbers to win big long term.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Only in 2020 can the concept of lesser of 2 evils be so confusing and contentious. 

[DAG 33,980]

As a strong independent, this upcoming election will be like partaking in the NC game between UGA and Alabama. Both options are buzzkills. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 minute ago, DAG said:

As a strong independent, this upcoming election will be like partaking in the NC game between UGA and Alabama. Both options are buzzkills. 

I was so happy to be on a cruise that night.  I chose playing craps over subjecting myself to that game.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

Just now, Brad_ATX said:

I was so happy to be on a cruise that night.  I chose playing craps over subjecting myself to that game.

I didn't watch a single play of that game until the highlights the next morning. 

[aubiefifty 16,766]

i would watch it now lol. i miss college ball so much. i miss the fellowship it brings.

[aubiefifty 16,766]

besides how often do you get the chance to hate on two teams at the same time? it is almost like a bargain.  grins

[SLAG-91 1,483]

49 minutes ago, DAG said:

As a strong independent, this upcoming election will be like partaking in the NC game between UGA and Alabama. Both options are buzzkills. 

I hear that loud and clear. As someone who did postgraduate work at Texas A&M after graduating from AU, the Alabama-Texas title game after the 2009 season was no fun.

When I think about the major party choices lately (felt this way in '16 as well), I'm reminded of the line from "Mrs. Robinson."

"Laugh about it, shout about it, when you've got to choose...every way you look at it, you lose."

[homersapien 11,367]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Only in 2020 can the concept of lesser of 2 evils be so confusing and contentious. 

It's truly mind boggling.  And it's not like Biden is "evil" at all, especially compared to Trump.

He certainly wasn't my first choice but if he beats Trump I am more than happy with him.

[savorytiger 182]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

besides how often do you get the chance to hate on two teams at the same time? it is almost like a bargain.  grins

But in the end one of them has to win, and no one here wants to see that.

[McLoofus 35,182]

9 minutes ago, homersapien said:

It's truly mind boggling.  And it's not like Biden is "evil" at all, especially compared to Trump.

He certainly wasn't my first choice but if he beats Trump I am more than happy with him.

If anyone wants to call Biden evil, I won't disagree with them. If anyone wants to wish for better than Biden and demand better than Biden next go-round and bitch about what a terrible president Biden is if he's elected, great. I get it. But I'm just not going to credit anyone with a lot of intellectual honesty or unbiased clarity if they can't compartmentalize those feelings and see the path forward.

He might be a dumb, ugly, uncomfortable lifeboat, but we're on a sinking ship for chrissakes. All we have to do is hop off. Maybe we'll get a warm shower and nice steak when we reach dry land, or maybe we'll never reach dry land. But we've got one choice to make right now and it's an obvious one. 

[DAG 33,980]

41 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

If anyone wants to call Biden evil, I won't disagree with them. If anyone wants to wish for better than Biden and demand better than Biden next go-round and bitch about what a terrible president Biden is if he's elected, great. I get it. But I'm just not going to credit anyone with a lot of intellectual honesty or unbiased clarity if they can't compartmentalize those feelings and see the path forward.

He might be a dumb, ugly, uncomfortable lifeboat, but we're on a sinking ship for chrissakes. All we have to do is hop off. Maybe we'll get a warm shower and nice steak when we reach dry land, or maybe we'll never reach dry land. But we've got one choice to make right now and it's an obvious one. 

I have no doubt in my that Biden will win. I even think conservatives are sick of trump now. However, if anyone thinks Biden is this great choice or even a good choice , they are the problem too. Compared to what we have now, you can only go up. But let’s not kid ourselves in thinking Biden isn’t cringeworthy , creepy or honestly IMO pretty bland. He honestly epitomizes what is wrong with politics in terms of the elitist always find ways to get into the whit house for the most part. I am still baffled that he got the nomination when he was dead in the water but quite frankly, I also believe the COVID situation helped him quite a bit, as it deflected a lot from his mishaps , ability to move people in debates, etc. 

I am going to reiterate another sports reference. It is not that Jamarcus Russell was deserving to be the number 1 QB in the 2007 draft class. It’s just the rest of the QB class was not very good. Unless , you are a complete LSU homer , I think most people would agree with that. And I am sure we have political homers on both sides.  
 

edit: damn autocorrect 

[DAG 33,980]

I do think though Biden can do himself well with many moderates and independents by surrounding himself with people who know a lot more than him who offer real substance solutions to the problems effecting people at the micro level. That is going to be huge for his campaign moving forward. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

21 minutes ago, DAG said:

However, if anyone thinks Biden is this great choice or even a food choice , they are the problem too.

Some people do, I'm sure. But I don't think many of them reside here. I don't think many of us voted for him in the primary. I didn't. 

21 minutes ago, DAG said:

And I am sure we have political homers on both sides.  

No doubt. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

23 minutes ago, DAG said:

I am going to reiterate another sports reference. It is not that Jamarcus Russell was deserving to be the number 1 QB in the 2007 draft class. It’s just the rest of the QB class was not very good. Unless , you are a complete LSU homer , I think most people would agree with that. And I am sure we have political homers on both sides.  

Biden is essentially Mike Shula after Dubose and Fran crushed Bama and led them into probation.  He's here to steady the ship for a few years until you have the chance to find the next Saban.  And right now, that's OK.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Just now, McLoofus said:

Some people do, I'm sure. But I don't think many of them reside here. I don't think many of us voted for him in the primary. I didn't. 

I did, but my primary was right after Buttigieg and Klobacher dropped out.  My choice had basically come down to Biden or Sanders and for me, that's an easy call.

[McLoofus 35,182]

9 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I did, but my primary was right after Buttigieg and Klobacher dropped out.  My choice had basically come down to Biden or Sanders and for me, that's an easy call.

I voted for Warren, but in hindsight that clearly wasn't a good decision. She didn't even carry her own state. I still don't completely understand why she didn't do better- too far left, I guess?- but it doesn't matter if the people who know her best didn't want her. 

I would be much more excited to vote for any of the 3 than I am about Biden. But, as with Bernie and Biden for you, it's an easy and obvious choice now. 

And the analogies are endless. Would you rather continue getting punched in the nuts over and over again, or would you rather go back to not getting punched in the nuts? Not getting punched in the nuts isn't exactly a life goal, but until 2016 I thought it was something that I could at least assume wasn't going to be constantly happening. Let's start with not getting punched in the nuts every day and then aspire to better things while not getting punched in the nuts every day. 

[DAG 33,980]

8 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I did, but my primary was right after Buttigieg and Klobacher dropped out.  My choice had basically come down to Biden or Sanders and for me, that's an easy call.

Man, I really liked Mayor Pete. For the most part I truly loved the substance he did bring. His military background absolutely resonated with me. I also loved how he is one of the few who will stand up and say I got it wrong. That will caught my eyes. I think having the wine cave fundraisers though was truly his death sentence , especially when there was big push resisting elitist hand grabbing. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Just now, McLoofus said:

I voted for Warren, but in hindsight that clearly wasn't a good decision. She didn't even carry her own state. I still don't completely understand why she didn't do better- too far left, I guess?- but it doesn't matter if the people who know her best didn't want her. 

She's a bit too left for the mainstream voter.  You've got to remember, the Democratic primary had a ton of new voters this year.  Those voters largely identified as moderate.  The vote was very much "who could be middle of the road enough to beat Trump".  It was the most calculated vote I've ever seen from an electorate.

[McLoofus 35,182]

25 minutes ago, DAG said:

I do think though Biden can do himself well with many moderates and independents by surrounding himself with people who know a lot more than him who offer real substance solutions to the problems effecting people at the micro level. That is going to be huge for his campaign moving forward. 

This is why I wish folks would chill a bit on questioning his age and mental acuity and such until he's picked a running mate. Obviously it's important, but would folks rather have a psychopath who fires people for having their own ideas, or someone who recognizes he's not the smartest man in the room? Nevermind the muscle memory of having been serving at the highest levels of government for decades. He will provide stability and we need that more than anything. 

[homersapien 11,367]

I've seen some strong opinion pieces for making Warren his VP candidate.

While I didn't vote for her, I really like Warren. Logically, she would appeal to those who desperately want to shake up the status quo. (All those progressives David keeps talking about.)

I mainly want the strongest possible candidate, whomever it is.