Is our athletic department "too religious"?

[homersapien 11,373]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

Ever hear of "see you at the flagpole"?

[gctiger 931]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

Ever hear of "see you at the flagpole"?

So why can't the prayer be led by a Christan teacher?

Why is there no longer a prayer prior to Auburn football games?

[keesler 5,924]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

They can. The administration just can't lead it or write the prayer in their official capacity.

ETA: I mean, if what you are saying is correct, no school would have a Fellowship of Christian Athletes. That's clearly not the case. The difference is that the FCA or the FCS is entirely voluntary, and is a student-led group with a faculty advisor.

^^This

FCA is huge in Montgomery via many fine representatives from "Auburn." My kids attend a private Chrisitan school, so we've choosen to pay an arm and a leg to have Christianity and religion forced down their little throats everyday since they were 5 yrs old. hahahah

[Weegle777 78]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

Ever hear of "see you at the flagpole"?

So why can't the prayer be led by a Christan teacher?

Why is there no longer a prayer prior to Auburn football games?

Because of a gross misinterpretation of the establishment clause, and the ignorance of people believing that the separation of church and state is in the constitution.

[DANSBY 0]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

Ever hear of "see you at the flagpole"?

So why can't the prayer be led by a Christan teacher?

Why is there no longer a prayer prior to Auburn football games?

What would the reaction be if a Muslim teacher led the class in a Muslim prayer? I suspect all of us good Southerners might change our tune about teacher led prayer in school if this was the case. Nobody said you can't pray before AU games...have at it. I know several people who sit around me become VERY religious before big field goals and important 3rd and 4th down plays.....

[gctiger 931]

Come on Dansby, stop sandbagging and answer the questions.

Why can't a Christian teacher/admin lead a prayer to a Christian group of students?

Why is there no longer a public prayer before an Auburn game when no one is forced to pray?

[AUcivE09 582]

I think the Devil has his hand in this thread! No wonder millions have died over religious debate.

[Auctoritas 2,828]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

Ever hear of "see you at the flagpole"?

So why can't the prayer be led by a Christan teacher?

Why is there no longer a prayer prior to Auburn football games?

Because of a gross misinterpretation of the establishment clause, and the ignorance of people believing that the separation of church and state is in the constitution.

The idea is there. And beyond that, because of Marbury v Madison, and the concept of judicial review, it's now case law, and the law of the land. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but it's the law, and as the Auburn Creed says, "I believe in obedience to law because it protects the rights of all."

But it's the height of arrogance to think that you know better than a plethora of Supreme Court justices whose sole job it is to interpret the US Constitution.

[keesler 5,924]

May we all bow our heads for a moment of silence?

[Auctoritas 2,828]

I'm leaving this thread before it gets nasty. I spoke too soon, apparently.

[TheBlueVue 177]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

Ever hear of "see you at the flagpole"?

So why can't the prayer be led by a Christan teacher?

Why is there no longer a prayer prior to Auburn football games?

Because of a gross misinterpretation of the establishment clause, and the ignorance of people believing that the separation of church and state is in the constitution.

The idea is there. And beyond that, because of Marbury v Madison, and the concept of judicial review, it's now case law, and the law of the land. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but it's the law, and as the Auburn Creed says, "I believe in obedience to law because it protects the rights of all."

But it's the height of arrogance to think that you know better than a plethora of Supreme Court justices whose sole job it is to interpret the US Constitution.

They interpret the Constitution by committee and some of their recent decisions make one wonder how they ever ascended to the Supreme Court.

[gctiger 931]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

Ever hear of "see you at the flagpole"?

So why can't the prayer be led by a Christan teacher?

Why is there no longer a prayer prior to Auburn football games?

Because of a gross misinterpretation of the establishment clause, and the ignorance of people believing that the separation of church and state is in the constitution.

The idea is there. And beyond that, because of Marbury v Madison, and the concept of judicial review, it's now case law, and the law of the land. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but it's the law, and as the Auburn Creed says, "I believe in obedience to law because it protects the rights of all."

But it's the height of arrogance to think that you know better than a plethora of Supreme Court justices whose sole job it is to interpret the US Constitution.

That's funny considering that the Supreme Court seems to be making a lot of arrogant decisions these days.

There's God's law and Man's law. I know which ones I most fear!

[Weegle777 78]

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

I guess you opinion of better and mine must differ. I certainly don't think that the world has become a better place in the years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in schools. We now have to regularly deal with school shootings. I can't understand why someone that disagrees with a prayer can't respectfully remain silent for a few minutes even if they chose not to pray.

The SCOTUS didn't ban prayer in schools. Anyone who wants to pray is school is perfectly free to do so. What it banned is organized prayer initiated by those in a position of authority. I have already explained why this is inappropriate, although from your last sentence it is apparent you don't agree with my reasoning.

I suspect even you would get a little uncomfortable if children had to sit through just any prayer (Islam, voo-doo, witchcraft). After all, your kids could remain "respectfully silent" instead of getting down and kneeling toward mecca with the rest of their peers.

If you read my posts carefully, then you know how I feel about forced prayer. On the other hand, I find utterly rediculous that any group of people with common beliefs can't hold an organized prayer amongst themselves in a public school.

Ever hear of "see you at the flagpole"?

So why can't the prayer be led by a Christan teacher?

Why is there no longer a prayer prior to Auburn football games?

Because of a gross misinterpretation of the establishment clause, and the ignorance of people believing that the separation of church and state is in the constitution.

The idea is there. And beyond that, because of Marbury v Madison, and the concept of judicial review, it's now case law, and the law of the land. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but it's the law, and as the Auburn Creed says, "I believe in obedience to law because it protects the rights of all."

But it's the height of arrogance to think that you know better than a plethora of Supreme Court justices whose sole job it is to interpret the US Constitution.

What arrogance? Any educated, intelligent individual can read the constitution and understand the meaning of the establishment clause. It's not that difficult.

[Weegle777 78]

I'm leaving this thread before it gets nasty. I spoke too soon, apparently.

It doesn't have to get nasty.

[DANSBY 0]

Come on Dansby, stop sandbagging and answer the questions.

Why can't a Christian teacher/admin lead a prayer to a Christian group of students?

Why is there no longer a public prayer before an Auburn game when no one is forced to pray?

Not sandbagging..I have absolutely no clue why. Surprisingly enough, I was not consulted about either of those decisions before they were made.

In my opinion, the question I asked might have something to do with the answer to yours. I think if one religion is allowed to have teacher/ admin led prayer, then you have to respect ALL religions and allow them the same opportunity. I honestly think that many of the folks who are campaigning for prayer in school would be greatly offended if their children were in a classroom setting while a teacher/ admin led the rest of the kids in Muslim (or any other religion) prayer. I also don't think it's fair to label kids in school as Christian and non-Christian. You said the prayer would be led by a Christian teacher to a group of Christian students...how do you propose we separate the groups?

On the gameday thing....prayer is prayer, whether it's broadcast over a PA before kickoff, or done silently in one's head , or shared among friends/ teammates etc... Announcing a prayer over a PA system does not make it better or more genuine. If you want to pray before the game, then I feel strongly that you should be able to.

And I promise I won't get nasty. My religious beliefs work great for me, and I am proud to share them with anyone who asks. My religious beliefs are different than my mom's, my wife's, my siblings', and even my kid's. I try my best to be respectful of other religious views, in fact I am fascinated by the topic and love discussing.

[keesler 5,924]

I've always been fascinated with different religions. I just finished a book about the FLDS, the practice of polygamy that they still practice today in secret, the compounds they live in and the overall power their "prophets" have over their followers. I'm reading a book now on the Hasidic Jewish population in New York, about the severe ritualistic life they live, the burrows they live in and the overall power their leaders have over their followers. It's fascinating in the world we live in to today where media/internet/television and technology are such a huge part of our lives that those two particular religions strive to distance themselves and their congregations from the very things that most of us feel like we couldn't live without. I'm very interested in learning more about the Hindu & Buddist religions.

[DANSBY 0]

I agree. I have always been intrigued by Buddhism....but that 5 Precepts thing is a big snag for me. I violate at least 4 of those things as often as possible. Plus I hate spiders.

[IndianTiger 95]

You will find many Hindus in the US am sure there are many Buddhists as well. Some history, both religions started out in India, although Buddhism did spread to other parts in the far east, Hinduism primarily stayed in India. Buddhism essentially was started as an anti Hinduism religion. It is very interesting because of its simplicity. Like I mentioned earlier, to truly understand the meaning you may have to travel to India (particularly for Hinduism), its complicated yet pretty simple. The walls between many religions in India overlap quite a bit because of the 100's of years of many religions co-existing and people celebrated each others religious events (which I am yet to see in this country). Maybe we need another 100 years. :-)

[walker77 0]

It's a serious and deserving question to be posed. I think that we hear so much about hiring "men of God" and "men of character" at Auburn, and I think it's a little overwhelming and kind of cheesy at times. I remember this article from a while back, and I think it's pretty revealing:

http://www.thewizofo...-at-auburn.html

I just don't understand why we can't hire coaches to do what their job description says - which is to win. They're not there to teach Sunday school.

As a counter perspective to this OP, I'd like to add my and my wife's experience with hires at AU during the 70's (granted they were academic, but still the scenario is valid in comparison). These are true examples...

1. English Composition Class - I had an alcoholic feminist as an instructor. After 3 weeks of class when I had a high B average she told me that I didn't write well enough to get higher than a C in her class. From that point on, I recieved C's & D's on my papers, even as the girls aced everything. I had my wife (a straight A english student) write a paper for me, with same result. Note: her atheistic anti-male religion was obvious.

2. Sociology Class - My professor was blatantly atheistic and taunted Christians in the class. I was probably an agnostic at the time, but even then his slanted indoctrination was obvious.

3. Geography Class - My wife's teacher lectured exclusively on Marxism daily, never on Geography. He gave the answers out the day before a test so everybody made good grades. Again, a blatant none-christian indoctrination.

The Counter Question Is: Is there a place for this type of hire as a coach (or as a teacher) at Auburn University???

[keesler 5,924]

You will find many Hindus in the US am sure there are many Buddhists as well. Some history, both religions started out in India, although Buddhism did spread to other parts in the far east, Hinduism primarily stayed in India. Buddhism essentially was started as an anti Hinduism religion. It is very interesting because of its simplicity. Like I mentioned earlier, to truly understand the meaning you may have to travel to India (particularly for Hinduism), its complicated yet pretty simple. The walls between many religions in India overlap quite a bit because of the 100's of years of many religions co-existing and people celebrated each others religious events (which I am yet to see in this country). Maybe we need another 100 years. :-)

From outside appearances, it seems the Buddhists and Hindus religions are a very tolerant, peaceful bunch of folks. They seem very serene and at peace with themselves and don't feel the need to force their beliefs on others for the sake of ministering or bringing lost souls to their religion. Kind of a "to each his own" mentality, live and let live.

I was personally born and raised in a devout Southern Baptist household. I was taught from an early age to fear God and that only born again Christians would be allowed to enter the kingdom of Heaven. I have two uncles that are Assembly of God ministers and are still preaching hell fire and damnation in their old age. Bless their hearts.

I've learned to have much more tolerance and acceptance for my fellow humans and hope that everyone finds a peace of mind from whichever source they find comfort. If Buddha or Allah help a man get through life the more power to 'em.

[Auctoritas 2,828]

It's a serious and deserving question to be posed. I think that we hear so much about hiring "men of God" and "men of character" at Auburn, and I think it's a little overwhelming and kind of cheesy at times. I remember this article from a while back, and I think it's pretty revealing:

http://www.thewizofo...-at-auburn.html

I just don't understand why we can't hire coaches to do what their job description says - which is to win. They're not there to teach Sunday school.

As a counter perspective to this OP, I'd like to add my and my wife's experience with hires at AU during the 70's (granted they were academic, but still the scenario is valid in comparison). These are true examples...

1. English Composition Class - I had an alcoholic feminist as an instructor. After 3 weeks of class when I had a high B average she told me that I didn't write well enough to get higher than a C in her class. From that point on, I recieved C's & D's on my papers, even as the girls aced everything. I had my wife (a straight A english student) write a paper for me, with same result. Note: her atheistic anti-male religion was obvious.

2. Sociology Class - My professor was blatantly atheistic and taunted Christians in the class. I was probably an agnostic at the time, but even then his slanted indoctrination was obvious.

3. Geography Class - My wife's teacher lectured exclusively on Marxism daily, never on Geography. He gave the answers out the day before a test so everybody made good grades. Again, a blatant none-christian indoctrination.

The Counter Question Is: Is there a place for this type of hire as a coach (or as a teacher) at Auburn University???

Absolutely not. Those people are buttholes. Although, for 1 and 3, that doesn't seem much to do with religion as it does with an extremist worldview. I know lots of people on the far left, and many of them are Christians. I also know quite a few atheists who are rabidly far right.

There are lots of people of other faiths, or no faith at all, who are very nice people, who do not proselytize, and make wonderful instructors/teachers/firemen/chefs. As an Atheist, I apologize for those people's behavior. There's no excuse for it.

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

You will find many Hindus in the US am sure there are many Buddhists as well. Some history, both religions started out in India, although Buddhism did spread to other parts in the far east, Hinduism primarily stayed in India. Buddhism essentially was started as an anti Hinduism religion. It is very interesting because of its simplicity. Like I mentioned earlier, to truly understand the meaning you may have to travel to India (particularly for Hinduism), its complicated yet pretty simple. The walls between many religions in India overlap quite a bit because of the 100's of years of many religions co-existing and people celebrated each others religious events (which I am yet to see in this country). Maybe we need another 100 years. :-)

From outside appearances, it seems the Buddhists and Hindus religions are a very tolerant, peaceful bunch of folks. They seem very serene and at peace with themselves and don't feel the need to force their beliefs on others for the sake of ministering or bringing lost souls to their religion. Kind of a "to each his own" mentality, live and let live.

I was personally born and raised in a devout Southern Baptist household. I was taught from an early age to fear God and that only born again Christians would be allowed to enter the kingdom of Heaven. I have two uncles that are Assembly of God ministers and are still preaching hell fire and damnation in their old age. Bless their hearts.

I've learned to have much more tolerance and acceptance for my fellow humans and hope that everyone finds a peace of mind from whichever source they find comfort. If Buddha or Allah help a man get through life the more power to 'em.

For most of history

More recently, however, Google Sri Lanka

[minister of music 0]

I thought this topic was locked? Who caved in to political pressure and opened it up again? One more time. IT DOES NOTHING GOOD FOR THIS FORUM OR SITE. It divides and creates problems that no one can possibly fix. This question has nothing to do with Auburn or Sports. It is political and belongs in the squabble section.

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

I thought this topic was locked? Who caved in to political pressure and opened it up again? One more time. IT DOES NOTHING GOOD FOR THIS FORUM OR SITE. It divides and creates problems that no one can possibly fix. This question has nothing to do with Auburn or Sports. It is political and belongs in the squabble section.

Actually, I missed that it was previously locked,

But ^^^^^^^this^^^^^^

[stealthyfan 124]

I really don't care which religion if any one chooses.

Just keep it real, personal and private

Matthew 6:1-6

The KJV is a select group of writings chosen by a bunch more guys that generally reinforced their position of power over the masses. There's plenty more out there that tells a different story. So read what pleases you and your faith (using the collective 'you' here) but respect the choice of others . A zealot will not respect this personal and private choice is the point.