Trump Supporters Need to Remember Their Patriotic Duty

[homersapien 11,453]

— and Listen to Bill Maher

What do you do when your president has so many suspicious ties to a hostile foreign power?

"We're supposed to still be part of the American tribe. You know, they always said if Mars attacked, then we and Russia would get together. But as it is now, Mars hasn't attacked, so we're still supposed to be against Russia as Americans. It seems to have gotten a little out of whack here when the Republicans hate the Democrats, that tribe, so much that they're with the Russian tribe over the Democrats."

(Excerpt)s:

........Even if you aren't convinced that a smoking gun exists to prove Trump did anything illegal in his interactions with Russian government officials, it is indisputable that he has suspicious ties to that country — or, at least, it would be indisputable if we didn't live in an era where facts are so commonly warped by partisan biases.

.......Regardless of which section of the Trump über allies crowd you fall into, however, there are five inescapable facts about Trump's connections with Russia, as well as unavoidable conclusions that follow from those facts, if one's goal is to best serve the interests of the nation known as the United States of America.

1. Russia meddled in the 2016 presidential election with, among other goals, the desire to install Trump as America's next president. This is the unanimous conclusion of America's intelligence agencies, who are equally certain that Russia is targeting the 2018 midterm elections, and on a federal level, the notion that Russia wasn't trying to help Trump has only been promoted by a congressional committee whose chairman has made it clear that his goal is to protect the president.

2. Trump and his family have an unusually extensive history of business ties to Russian government officials and Russian business leaders closely connected to those government officials. These range from his work on the Miss Universe pageant to various real estate ventures outside of Russia that were connected in ways to wealthy Russian investors. As Donald Trump Jr. admitted at a real estate conference in 2008, "Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia."

3. Trump's campaign had an unusually large number of associates who, in one way or another, proved to have been compromised by the Russian government. The most conspicuous of these include his former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russia in December and who had extensive connections with President Vladimir Putin's regime before he was hired by Trump; his former campaign manager Paul Manafort, who served as a close political adviser to former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, who was a puppet for the Putin regime during his tenure in that country; former campaign adviser Carter Page; former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson; his former adviser and longtime friend Roger Stone; and a number of others.

4. Trump himself has taken a dovish approach toward Russia for years, one that is wildly inconsistent with the hawkish tone he takes toward every other country. It would be one thing if Trump was a staunch non-interventionist who viewed geopolitics through the same lens as a paleoconservative like Pat Buchanan or a libertarian like Ron Paul. But he isn't; on pretty much every major foreign policy issue of our time, Trump's views are indistinguishable from those of the mainstream in the Republican Party. The one exception is Russia, where Trump has repeatedly called for a closer alliance with that country (and is even reported to have directed the party to soften a plank in their platform that they felt was too harsh on Russia for its invasion of Ukraine), where he has dragged his feet on implementing punitive sanctions that were only imposed in the first place because Congress made it politically impossible for him to oppose them and where he has repeatedly cozied up to Putin even when doing so worked against the stated interests of the United States.

5. Trump has gone out of his way to discredit the investigation into him, which seemingly borders on obstruction of justice even if one generously assumes he's simply doing this as an innocent man in a panic — but which, if we're going to be honest with ourselves, seems like the desperate flailing of a man who doesn't want to be caught having done something wrong. He has also on many occasions challenged the basic premise that Russia meddled in our election on his behalf, which at best simply leaves us vulnerable to future meddling and at worst does both that and confirms our worst fears about Trump's own actions.

None of this means that Trump shouldn't receive the same benefit of the doubt to which all Americans are entitled, the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. It doesn't even mean that Americans who support Trump's policy agenda shouldn't continue to do so, provided that they take care to separate the ideas and goals from the man himself.

What it does mean — what it must mean, if one values such things as national sovereignty — is that people must hold Trump accountable if they care about the integrity of America's democratic process, the supremacy of the rule of law over powerful individuals and the rights of American citizens to live in a country whose autonomy is respected. This requires three things:

Read the rest at: https://www.alternet.org/trump-supporters-need-remember-their-patriotic-duty-and-listen-bill-maher

 

[SaltyTiger 7,864]

9 hours ago, homersapien said:

— and Listen to Bill Maher

What do you do when your president has so many suspicious ties to a hostile foreign power?

"We're supposed to still be part of the American tribe. You know, they always said if Mars attacked, then we and Russia would get together. But as it is now, Mars hasn't attacked, so we're still supposed to be against Russia as Americans. It seems to have gotten a little out of whack here when the Republicans hate the Democrats, that tribe, so much that they're with the Russian tribe over the Democrats."

(Excerpt)s:

........Even if you aren't convinced that a smoking gun exists to prove Trump did anything illegal in his interactions with Russian government officials, it is indisputable that he has suspicious ties to that country — or, at least, it would be indisputable if we didn't live in an era where facts are so commonly warped by partisan biases.

 

 

just wow....expected from Mayer

[TexasTiger 13,027]

1 hour ago, SaltyTiger said:

just wow....expected from Mayer

Yeah, the truth.

[homersapien 11,453]

On 5/26/2018 at 10:30 PM, SaltyTiger said:

just wow....expected from Mayer

Anything wrong with the message, other than the messenger?  

(And "Mayer" is a musician)

[AUFAN78 3,926]

On 5/26/2018 at 12:03 PM, homersapien said:

it would be indisputable if we didn't live in an era where facts are so commonly warped by partisan biases.

Bill should have added a caveat, "so take this under consideration when you read my thoughts for I am extremely biased." Typical.

[homersapien 11,453]

41 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Bill should have added a caveat, "so take this under consideration when you read my thoughts for I am extremely biased." Typical.

So tell us exactly where he's wrong.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

12 minutes ago, homersapien said:

So tell us exactly where he's wrong.

It is a presumptuous opinion piece by a biased partisan. All you really need to know.

[homersapien 11,453]

57 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

It is a presumptuous opinion piece by a biased partisan. All you really need to know.

But it happens to be accurate.  I think that's pretty important to know.

Which really means it's not "presumptuous" at all.   Now, I'll give you the "biased" but that's irrelevant when addressing simple facts.  Facts are facts.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

But it happens to be accurate.  I think that's pretty important.

Which really means it's not all that "presumptuous". 

I'll give you the "biased" but that's irrelevant when discussing simple facts.

Roughly half of America disagrees with you and Bill. Opinions are not facts.

[homersapien 11,453]

11 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Roughly half of America disagrees with you and Bill. Opinions are not facts.

Do you not see the irony in those two sentences? 

(And roughly half of America? )

But again, quote me where he's wrong. 
 

 

[AUFAN78 3,926]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Do you not see the irony in those two sentences? 

(And roughly half of America? )

But again, quote me where he's wrong. 
 

 

I think you try to find irony in everything. 

The story hasn't concluded. Let it play out. 

[homersapien 11,453]

Just now, AUFAN78 said:

I think you try to find irony in everything. 

The story hasn't concluded. Let it play out. 

I find irony when it happens. 

I'll take your non-response as confirmation the facts Maher presented are accurate.

I fully understand and agree the story "hasn't concluded" and I have little choice but to "let it play out".  Never claimed otherwise.

But since we are offering advice, I suggest you start trying to think more critically and also consider the relative importance of Trump vs. the interests of your country. 

Exactly as Bill Maher suggested.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

Just now, homersapien said:

I find irony when it happens. 

I'll take your non-response as confirmation the facts Maher presented are accurate.

I fully understand and agree the story "hasn't concluded" and I have little choice but to "let it play out".  Never claimed otherwise.

But since we are offering advice, I suggest you start trying to think more critically and also consider the relative importance of Trump vs. the interests of your country. 

Exactly as Bill Maher suggested.

Thanks for the advice. You do you. I'll choose to be objective.  

[homersapien 11,453]

2 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Thanks for the advice. You do you. I'll choose to be objective.  

There's Mr. Irony again. 

[AUFAN78 3,926]

Just now, homersapien said:

There's Mr. Irony again. 

You should try it. I don't hurt. 

[homersapien 11,453]

5 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

You should try it. I don't hurt. 

Well, how about applying a little bit of that objectivity and identify the fact Bill Maher presented that's not objectively accurate.

Hell, how about showing me where I  have presented a fact that cannot be (objectively) validated.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, how about applying a little bit of that objectivity and identify the fact Bill Maher presented that's not objectively accurate.

Hell, how about showing me where I  am saying anything that cannot be objectively confirmed.

How about using some critical thinking, read through the list again and tell me if you reach the same conclusion.

[homersapien 11,453]

7 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

How about using some critical thinking, read through the list again and tell me if you reach the same conclusion.

Nice weaseling.

I didn't see anything inaccurate.  Help me out.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Nice weaseling.

You successfully wasted an hour of my time. Say goodnight homes. 

[homersapien 11,453]

Just now, AUFAN78 said:

You successfully wasted an hour of my time. Say goodnight homes. 

Actually, from my perspective - and considering I willingly choose to participate in this forum, it was well-spent.

So I guess you might call that a win/win.

 

[AUFAN78 3,926]

I'll leave you with this quote: 

We are constantly given secondhand information or leaks filtered through a thick screen of partisan advocates. The public would be wise to reject the cyphers on both sides and focus on the factual over the rhetorical. That requires the completion of the investigations of both the Trump campaign and the FBI with a full public disclosure of the unvarnished and unedited facts.

This country is facing a crisis of faith. We have never been more divided or more unsure of our institutions. Washington thrives on getting people to take sides: Pick the red or the blue. There is a third option: No sides. We can instead pick the truth and demand the right to decide for ourselves.

So, as previously mentioned, I choose to be objective and wait until the end of the story. It is far from complete at present.