The Fallacy (and Laziness) of Both-Sides-ism

[CoffeeTiger 5,145]

https://www.postalley.org/2020/04/05/the-fallacy-and-laziness-of-both-sides-ism/

This week I had a response from a reader in the mid-west that I want to build on for this post. This brother, whom I respect for reading my writing though we disagree with some regularity, pleaded,

“Please Tony, stop the Trump and Hannity and Right Wing bashing. The ‘shouting’ you mention . . . comes equally from both sides. As ugly as Fox News gets, MSNBC is just as ugly and noisy and lying . . . The Republican leadership is no better or no worse than the Democrats. Neither side is any cleaner than the other and, if you think so, you are only kidding yourself.”

He argued that this was a time for unity, and not a time for launching zingers at the other side. I get that, heck, I’ve written the same thing here, more or less.

But here’s where we part company. The Republicans and the Democrats are not the same. Underlying too much of contemporary reporting is a “false equivalency,” which posits that by representing “both sides” balance and objectivity are attained.

The popularized equivalent holds, “they’re (R’s and D’s) all the same.” Or “both sides (parties) are corrupt.”

As mentioned previously I’ve been reading Ezra Klein’s Why We’re Polarized. At the same time that I was pondering my reader’s response I happened to read Klein’s chapter, “The Difference Between Democrats and Republicans.”

Klein begins by talking about the scholarly team of Thomas Mann and Norm Ornstein. The two political scientists have been well-known, even famous in their world, for collaboration despite difference. Mann works for the liberal-leaning Brookings Institution. Ornstein for the conservative-leaning American Enterprise Institute. They have teamed up on books and regularly appeared on news shows, lending to their hosts the air of balance and fair-play. Then the duo became to feel qualms. These were expressed in their 2012 book, It’s Even Worse Than It Looks. Here’s an excerpt quoted by Klein:

“Today’s Republican Party . . . is an insurgent outlier. It has become ideologically extreme; contemptuous of the inherited social and economic policy regime; scornful of compromise; unpersuaded by conventional understandings of fact, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of it’s political opposition, all but declaring war on the government. The Democratic Party, while no paragon of civic virtue, is more ideologically centered and diverse, protective of the government’s role as it developed over the course of the last century, open to incremental changes in policy fashioned through bargaining with the Republicans and less disposed to or adept at take-no-prisoners conflict between the parties.

“This asymmetry between the parties, which journalists and scholars often brush aside or whitewash in a quest for ‘balance,’ constitutes a huge obstacle to effective governance.”

 

While there are individual exceptions, the Republicans as a political party have shown themselves less interested in actual governance than in throwing spanners in the works — or simply eliminating “the works,” as in the National Security Council office focused on global health and pandemics. This becomes a real problem in a crisis like the current one.

In the balance of Klein’s chapter he discusses structural factors that have kept the Democratic Party closer to accepted civic norms and established institutions (an argument borne out by Biden being their leading candidate for the nomination). Their language is restrained. But their point is clear — the two parties aren’t the same. To act as if they are is false.

The “Trumpification” of the GOP since 2016 is both a confirmation of Mann/Ornstein’s point, and a further reason to reject the “they’re all the same,” “both political parties are corrupt” argument. Today’s Trump-led Republican Party is, as my friend Tommy might put it, “a different breed of cat,” and it’s feral.

Edited June 17, 2021 by CoffeeTiger

[DKW 86 7,433]

That was so simplistic it was almost not worth reading. 

Are the two parties the same: No. The Democrats are clearly the saner party.

Are the two parties corrupt, as in classical corruption, as in owned by special interest groups: Yes.

My POV is that of a Bernie Supporter. If you think I will even allow that the Dems are not corrupt, you are sadly mistaken. In 2016, the Democrats were so corrupted that they failed to even hold real primaries. They held a coronation for Queen Hillary. They inivted those of us to watch and behold the one the party leaders like Pelosi, DWS, Schumer, Robby Mook et all had chosen for us. No need to even hold primaries, afterall HRC was the next President, Everyone on cable news and twitter said so. Screw the Deplorables we dont need to count their votes anyway. 

2016 Nevada Caucus Fight.

Basket of Deplorables, Dismissed because they are not her friends.

...that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

If anyone in America thought for one second that the Democrats gave a damn about THAT OTHER BASKET OF PEOPLE trump would never have been elected. This is the sad place we find ourselves in now. It was THE FAILURE of her Candidacy to even get within the same area code as empathy with those voters. 

Face it. The Democrat Party is, if anything, even further away from where it can even pretend to address those folks. We here on this forum are by and large educated, well read, etc. Every time someone tries to challenge the DNC Narrative, some here just about pass a kidney stone. 

Even HRC knew that most of thr Trump supporters dont buy everything trump is selling. They simply just want to know someone gives a damn about them. Bernie, for all his flaws, GIVES A DAMN. He touched every crowd he spoke with.

Compare the welcome of Bernie Sanders at Liberty University. When you actually care, give a damn about people, they react just like humans should react to Civil Discourse. 

Start at 8 minutes....

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by DKW 86

[jj3jordan 2,056]

I'm not a democrat. Also not insane.

[CoffeeTiger 5,145]

@DKW 86 I agree with you man. Democrats have corruption in their ranks. They are ruled by old, career politicians who are owned by special interest groups. I don't dispute any of that. I understand you believe the Democrat's did Bernie dirty and didn't give his election a fair, democratic chance and I respect that view...no issues from me here. 

My issue...and it's an issue that some on this forum like to ignore or explain away with "The Dems are just as bad" Is that the Republican base is actively becoming Anti-Government and Anti-Democracy. Trumps supporters are mad, they are angry, they are afraid of their political power and way of life being taken from them, they are radicalizing to view America's government, academia, scientist, free press and the entire system as being controlled by liberals, communists, Democrats, and being turned against them. They are armed, and They're becoming more and more dangerous. 

Go on American Greatness or on the National Review, Places where 'supposedly' the more intellectual and moderate conservatives are supposed to congregate and you'll see that  It's becoming an accepted narrative that the Jan 6 attack on the capitol was a 'Non-event'...didn't mean anything...doesn't need to be investigated or thought about any longer. It doesn't matter that it was the first time in US history that a domestic mob stormed the Capitol building waving flags of the U.S president to stop and prevent congress from proceeding with the election process. They mostly ignore the crazies in their own party, choosing instead to focus on scaring their base into mobilizing against a vague  'Critical Race Theory Takeover' and Transgenders destroying the nation.  

It doesn't matter that hundreds have been arrested and are giving defense statements and affidavits admitting that they are being radicalized by Trump, by Right wing news outlets, and by online communities into hating their government and believing that it is their mission to retake America from the Democrats and liberals. 

Conservatives are now saying this is no different from BML protests... It's a lot ******* different than protesters against social injustice and looters who are vandalizing and robbing stores for personal gain. Jan 6 weren't people peacefully protesting or vandalizing for personal gain, it was a coordinated attack on our national government to prevent our electoral process from proceeding.  that was the goal....the people who have been arrested are testifying that that was their goal. 

Republicans want to sweep it all under the rug and pretend that it was either a non-issue or was really organized by BLM/Communists (Republicans largely can't decide which made up/pretend narrative they all agree on yet).All this while they pursue and commit to a false 'stolen election' fantasy that they haven't proven happened, but they all still believe anyway because....deep state. 

The FBI and Department of justice are coming out with report after report stating that the greatest threats to American security are not Islamic terrorist, it's not BLM, it's not communist operatives, its Right Wing groups who mostly align with Trump and todays Republican Party and who believe the Democrats are going to destroy America and they have to stop it via any means necessary. This is not "Both sides" This is not the Republicans of the 90's or early 2000's. The Republican Party is now in the middle stages of radicalizing. They are losing control of their own constituents and their own messaging....the crazies and radicals are winning Republican primaries and are being put into congress and are launching continuing attacks on the remaining moderate/sane Republicans who are actually interested in sane governance.  

The Republicans still have a built in advantage in the Electoral College where Republicans are able to claim a disproportionately large amount of control over congress and over state assemblies while receiving a considerably smaller number of votes, but as the years continue to count down they are slowly losing their base. Older Conservatives are continuing to die, Religious affiliation is plummeting, and the younger, educated generation is fleeing to more left wing ideologies. They are in panic mode because the Democratic system in America is going to eventually stop being in their favor, and the nation will largely become more left wing in closer relation to Canada or Europe, and the Republicans and their base cannot accept that reality. 

 

 If Gerrymandering is ever properly addressed or the electoral college is reformed to be more fair then the Republican Party of 'today' is done, and Republicans know it.....angry, scared, poor, white Christians can't sustain a political party all by themselves and  they aren't interested in becoming a party for a more diverse coalition so the only way to retain power is it ensure that America's Democracy is set up in a way where they can't lose. Any Democratic system that would allow Liberals to gain power or take control of the nation is a Democracy that's not worth supporting or participating in for a growing number of Republicans. 

 

In closing....I'd love to focus more energy on reforming the Democratic party and rooting out the corruption that exists there, but right now I believe people need to focus more of their attention on defending our national government and our nation from a Republican party that is full of supporters who aren't sure the United States of today is worth preserving or existing at all.  

[autigeremt 6,657]

I love focusing on reforming the political system that led to where we are today. It’s a scab that intentionally gets ripped off every other year. 

[homersapien 11,401]

One cannot reform human nature.  Political parties - like ANY organization - are going to be "corrupt", in the sense that personal politics or favoritism enters into decisions.  Hell, both parties used to choose their candidates in smoke-filled rooms.

What Coffee is referring to is quite different. The Republican Party - for whatever reasons - has embraced fascism institutionally. 

The comparison is like comparing the natural inter party "corruption" of the 1930's Labor or Tory party of Great Britain or the Democratic and Republican parties of the same era with fascist Italy and Germany.

Whataboutism is not going to cut it when you are trying to defend a political party that refuses to acknowledge the outcome of a legitimate election and instigates a violent insurrection to seize power.  That's a whole different level of "corruption".

[autigeremt 6,657]

The Democratic Party has embraced a polar opposite of socialism and totalitarianism. The problem is they neither embrace liberty and freedom combined with free market principals. 
 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by autigeremt

[AU9377 5,000]

8 hours ago, autigeremt said:

The Democratic Party has embraced a polar opposite of socialism and totalitarianism. The problem is neither embrace liberty and freedom combined with free market principals. 
 

 

That  is an interesting point of view.  A totally free market's viability requires a certain amount of corporate responsibility to act in a manner that promotes the well being of the communities in which they operate. When this obligation isn't assumed by business enterprise, the void has to be filled or there becomes a real risk of some sort of chaotic uprising that threatens a representative democracy's ability to govern.  In other words, there is a pain threshold at which the system breaks.  To prevent that, governments attempt to provide safety nets to fill the gaps. Keeping everything in balance is very difficult when special interests have such a large seat at the table.

[autigeremt 6,657]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:32 AM, AU9377 said:

That  is an interesting point of view.  A totally free market's viability requires a certain amount of corporate responsibility to act in a manner that promotes the well being of the communities in which they operate. When this obligation isn't assumed by business enterprise, the void has to be filled or there becomes a real risk of some sort of chaotic uprising that threatens a representative democracy's ability to govern.  In other words, there is a pain threshold at which the system breaks.  To prevent that, governments attempt to provide safety nets to fill the gaps. Keeping everything in balance is very difficult when special interests have such a large seat at the table.

We aren't even close to those things you have listed. The pendulum swings are so immense that the people are left with lurches back and forth with little in the form of balance. I firmly believe our days as the freest nation on earth are numbered.....we are headed for a day where we are divided along lines far more marked than by politics. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by autigeremt

[AUDub 11,160]

On 6/18/2021 at 9:06 AM, homersapien said:

One cannot reform human nature.  Political parties - like ANY organization - are going to be "corrupt", in the sense that personal politics or favoritism enters into decisions.  Hell, both parties used to choose their candidates in smoke-filled rooms.

What Coffee is referring to is quite different. The Republican Party - for whatever reasons - has embraced fascism institutionally. 

The comparison is like comparing the natural inter party "corruption" of the 1930's Labor or Tory party of Great Britain or the Democratic and Republican parties of the same era with fascist Italy and Germany.

Whataboutism is not going to cut it when you are trying to defend a political party that refuses to acknowledge the outcome of a legitimate election and instigates a violent insurrection to seize power.  That's a whole different level of "corruption".

5 facepalms for a post that is very much on the nose. 

Hmm. This forum sucks. 

[DKW 86 7,433]

On 6/18/2021 at 9:06 AM, homersapien said:

One cannot reform human nature.  Political parties - like ANY organization - are going to be "corrupt", in the sense that personal politics or favoritism enters into decisions.  Hell, both parties used to choose their candidates in smoke-filled rooms.

What Coffee is referring to is quite different. The Republican Party - for whatever reasons - has embraced fascism institutionally. 

The comparison is like comparing the natural inter party "corruption" of the 1930's Labor or Tory party of Great Britain or the Democratic and Republican parties of the same era with fascist Italy and Germany.

Whataboutism is not going to cut it when you are trying to defend a political party that refuses to acknowledge the outcome of a legitimate election and instigates a violent insurrection to seize power.  That's a whole different level of "corruption".

 

22 hours ago, AUDub said:

5 facepalms for a post that is very much on the nose. 

Hmm. This forum sucks. 

Is this the part where those that havent gotten anything right in the last 4 plus years suddenly wake up and realize that they need to stop listening to those that had got it wrong all that time and start to listen to others that have been getting it right? Or are they just going to mindlessly-brainlessly scream RRRUUUSSSSSSIIIAAANNSSS!!!! for the rest of their natural lives hoping that one day people may actually find something that has some real merit to it?

Edited June 22, 2021 by DKW 86

[AU9377 5,000]

On 6/21/2021 at 4:06 PM, autigeremt said:

We aren't even close to those things you have listed. The pendulum swings are so immense that the people are left with lurches back and forth with little in the form of balance. I firmly believe our days as the freest nation on earth are numbered.....we are headed for a day where we are divided along lines far more marked than by politics. 

I'm assuming you mean the pain thresholds of working class people.  The only reason we haven't is that the government has been filling the gaps. The time will come that we will be forced to address things like income inequality and the cost of health care, including prescription drugs. The Federal government has kept many industries flush with cash by uncontrolled spending and having little apprehension about adding to the national debt.  Our defense spending has produced millionaires in the private sector, but has to be controlled within some degree of reason or it will bankrupt us all.  We are free because we can choose our path as a nation and we are a nation of laws, rather than men.  We aren't any more free than someone living in the U.K., Australia, Canada, France or a long list of other nations. 

[autigeremt 6,657]

On 6/22/2021 at 5:56 PM, AU9377 said:

I'm assuming you mean the pain thresholds of working class people.  The only reason we haven't is that the government has been filling the gaps. The time will come that we will be forced to address things like income inequality and the cost of health care, including prescription drugs. The Federal government has kept many industries flush with cash by uncontrolled spending and having little apprehension about adding to the national debt.  Our defense spending has produced millionaires in the private sector, but has to be controlled within some degree of reason or it will bankrupt us all.  We are free because we can choose our path as a nation and we are a nation of laws, rather than men.  We aren't any more free than someone living in the U.K., Australia, Canada, France or a long list of other nations. 

The days of this country being a land of laws is closing. It's starting in the biggest of cities and eventually will pit the city v/s the rural areas of America along racial and economic lines. That's when it will all fall apart. 

Having spent time in all but one of those countries (Canada) I'd say we are a freer nation.....but the gap is narrowing. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by autigeremt