Affirmation model as gay conversion therapy

[TexasTiger 12,897]

5 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

How does such a small percentage of the population become such a focal point in political discourse?

I could understand a preoccupation with sex and, sexuality but,,, not the sex and sexuality of others.

I think folks merely choosing to live as a gender other than the one generally ascribed to their biology would not be a major focal point. Most people wouldn’t care. 
 

 

[TexasTiger 12,897]

21 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I did. I think there's a certain amount of grandstanding there but let's face it. He's not wrong. 

Thinks highly of himself, to be sure.

[TitanTiger 20,483]

4 hours ago, AUDub said:

Yes, I'm exhausted with the trans movement and the cultural veto power they have. They and their advocates on Twitter are some of the most annoying and toxic people out there.

This bunch would include the head of HHS under Biden, Rachel Levine.  Current policy at HHS is in favor of "gender-affirming care" which includes all manner of things up to and including reassignment surgery "typically used in adulthood or case-by-case basis in adolescence, with social affirmation at any age along with puberty blockers during puberty and hormone therapy starting during early adolescence."

And when state health officials express disagreement with this standard, Levine is on record as dismissing their positions as not being science-based but based on "political considerations" and that "the language of medicine and science is being used to drive people to suicide."  This is irresponsible coming from anyone.  But it might be easier to wave off if it was just some social media crank begging for clicks and follows.  But this is the frickin' head of HHS.

 

[TexasTiger 12,897]

4 hours ago, AUDub said:

That's the key. She had to figure it out for herself. We neither affirmed or denied it.

Just roll with the punches lol. 

Exactly. Don’t affirm it nor deny it. Affirm the person. Affirm your love for the person. Affirm they are at an age where many explore their sexuality & gender, and the fact that your love as a parent is a constant independent of where they wind up. But this is not how most “affirmative care practitioners” operate. 

[AUDub 11,149]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

Thinks highly of himself, to be sure.

What can I say? I like his jokes and his arguments. I can maintain my cynicism with regard to his motives though lol. 

[creed 1,637]

3 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

How does such a small percentage of the population become such a focal point in political discourse?

I could understand a preoccupation with sex and, sexuality but,,, not the sex and sexuality of others.

Even creationist and evolutionist are throwing up their hands saying what the hell.

[Cardin Drake 1,829]

This is an interesting thread. I'm pleasantly surprised it has been civil.  This subject usually can't even be discussed rationally.  I see trans teens falling into one of three groups.

1) A tiny group who would grow up to transition as an adult no matter what. This group might benefit from early transitioning.

2) A much larger group of gay men and women who would have grown up to become healthy gay adults had they not become involved in the trans community.

3) A still larger group, predominately young women, who don't fit in well socially and have sought refuge in the "trans community".  This is driven through social media conditioning.

The original post was about group #2,  and is a very important point in this debate, one that cannot generally be discussed without fierce push back from the trans community.  Advocates are pushing “gender-affirming care,” i.e., moving quickly to help “transition” patients to new genders when transitioning should be a last resort, not a primary treatment, especially when it comes to children. We know from historical data, most cases of gender dysphoria will resolve themselves once the child has gone through puberty. But now we are putting our thumb on the scale with puberty blockers and sex hormones that will by themselves change the natural outcome. Gay men and women need to speak up. An effeminate ten year old boy should NOT be transitioning. This trend is wreaking havoc on a whole generation of gay people. 

I think both sides should give the other side the benefit of the doubt that they just want what is best for the kids. I certainly do, but I know not many in the trans community will see it that way when you are against transitioning for children.

It is literally impossible to tell with a ten  or twelve year old with any kind of accuracy if they are really in group 1 or group 2. (Not to mention group 3). But given the drastic and somewhat crude nature of the hormone treatments and surgeries,  how many mistakes can you make and still proceed ethically? I say you have to be pretty darn close to 100%. And that is not possible right now, if ever.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Cardin Drake

[TexasTiger 12,897]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:56 AM, AUDub said:

There's middle ground.

Herzog had pretty much found her footing these days and it's iconoclasm with regard to trans people. It's unfortunately become her cultural footprint. She lied her ass off to make her point, as I'll demonstrate.

And like I said, the trans community and their "allies" in general are toxic and I can't stand them. If they want to accuse me of being a TERF because I took offense at Lia Thomas clubbing baby seals in a competition in which she had no business competing, fine. I'll eat that label. I'll respect her as a woman as she wishes. Won't respect her as a person though. 

Just following up. Sincerely interested in your take on the article you linked to which you indicate reflects so negatively on her. I don’t see it, but am interested in understanding what you find so strongly objectionable.

[AUDub 11,149]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:58 PM, TexasTiger said:

Just following up. Sincerely interested in your take on the article you linked to which you indicate reflects so negatively on her. I don’t see it, but am interested in understanding what you find so strongly objectionable.

Sorry, man. I've been extremely busy at work. A coworker that covers the region north of me lost his daughter and I've been covering his area since last Friday. It has not been pleasant.

The one thing I'll immediately beeline on is, why focus on said "detransitioners" at all? In reality, this is pretty much a carbon copy of the "ex-gay" thing that was VERY much a thing through the 90s and early aughts when the concept of homosexuality was still far more taboo.

"This community actively harmed me."

It's not hard to find a few folks in a population that numbers on the millions that have a grievance, reasonable or not. It was true of gay people then, it's true of trans people now.

The approach is all wrong, and it there that Herzog most saliently fails in her zeal to discredit the trans movement in general with that article. One of the examples held up in that article, Ky Schevers, has since recanted that view.

At the end of the day. it boils down to how muddy the waters are with regard to human sexuality. If you view it in the convenient terms of a binary, the answers are simple. If you view it in the much more messy terms of a spectrum, more reflective of reality, things get really weird, and people move about as they learn and figure themselves out.

Again,  where Herzog fails. There's no empathy. Wasn't so long ago her homosexuality would have put her on a similar situation and seen her pilloried in the same manner.

 

[AUDub 11,149]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:39 PM, TexasTiger said:

But this is not how most “affirmative care practitioners” operate. 

Yes it is. Ava brought a girlfriend home. Hell, I drove them on dates.

No answer would have been a hell of an answer! THIS is affirmative care. There was nothing I could do otherwise. I could reject her girlfriend, or accept her. There was no way I could not take an action. It's one of those situations where I had to take an action, and I chose an action that would affirm there was nothing wrong with her.

I treated the situation just like I would have were it a boy she brought home. Solid curfews, door open policy, etc. 

Is what it is. She figured it out. I didn't steer her one way or another. I accepted her. 

[TexasTiger 12,897]

4 hours ago, AUDub said:

Yes it is. Ava brought a girlfriend home. Hell, I drove them on dates.

No answer would have been a hell of an answer! THIS is affirmative care. There was nothing I could do otherwise. I could reject her girlfriend, or accept her. There was no way I could not take an action. It's one of those situations where I had to take an action, and I chose an action that would affirm there was nothing wrong with her.

I treated the situation just like I would have were it a boy she brought home. Solid curfews, door open policy, etc. 

Is what it is. She figured it out. I didn't steer her one way or another. I accepted her. 

That’s you. Good on you. I’d done the same. But that is not how affirmative care practitioners work with teenclients/patients who assert they are transgender. Your daughter was in no danger of ruining her life and health thru medicalization. But what you did is better characterized as watchful waiting. In regard to teens saying they are trans, affirmative care folks reject your approach— you specifically say you neither affirmed nor denied. That’s not the affirmative care they advocate.

[AUDub 11,149]

30 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

That’s you. Good on you. I’d done the same. But that is not how affirmative care practitioners work with teenclients/patients who assert they are transgender. Your daughter was in no danger of ruining her life and health thru medicalization. But what you did is better characterized as watchful waiting. In regard to teens saying they are trans, affirmative care folks reject your approach— you specifically say you neither affirmed nor denied. That’s not the affirmative care they advocate.

It pretty much is. In a sense I did affirm. She brought a girl home. What was I to do? Reject it out of hand? I didn't think she was gay but you can't tell her that. 

How does that differ from a child preferring different pronouns?

You hear the horror stories but the fact of the matter is that's exactly how most therapists approach the problem. There's no doubt there are unethical parents and unethical practitioners out there, but the vast majority of the "adults in the room" will have the child's best interests at heart and are focused on resolving the dysphoria. And unfortunately human psychology is messy. 

It's a matter of irl vs online, imo.

[AUDub 11,149]

The bar is less high than it used to be when it comes to HRT and the like. It used to be, and in some places still is, if you wanted to transition your therapist would require you to pass as your preferred gender for a period of time before they would allow it. This presents a serious dilemma when you're talking about adolescents.

Imagine trying to pass as male when your hips are widening and you start having periods, or trying to pass as female while your voice is deepening and you're growing facial hair.

For folks that actually do have dysphoria,  that can be pretty distressing.

[AUDub 11,149]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:24 PM, Cardin Drake said:

This is an interesting thread. I'm pleasantly surprised it has been civil.  This subject usually can't even be discussed rationally.  I see trans teens falling into one of three groups.

1) A tiny group who would grow up to transition as an adult no matter what. This group might benefit from early transitioning.

2) A much larger group of gay men and women who would have grown up to become healthy gay adults had they not become involved in the trans community.

3) A still larger group, predominately young women, who don't fit in well socially and have sought refuge in the "trans community".  This is driven through social media conditioning.

The original post was about group #2,  and is a very important point in this debate, one that cannot generally be discussed without fierce push back from the trans community.  Advocates are pushing “gender-affirming care,” i.e., moving quickly to help “transition” patients to new genders when transitioning should be a last resort, not a primary treatment, especially when it comes to children. We know from historical data, most cases of gender dysphoria will resolve themselves once the child has gone through puberty. But now we are putting our thumb on the scale with puberty blockers and sex hormones that will by themselves change the natural outcome. Gay men and women need to speak up. An effeminate ten year old boy should NOT be transitioning. This trend is wreaking havoc on a whole generation of gay people. 

I think both sides should give the other side the benefit of the doubt that they just want what is best for the kids. I certainly do, but I know not many in the trans community will see it that way when you are against transitioning for children.

It is literally impossible to tell with a ten  or twelve year old with any kind of accuracy if they are really in group 1 or group 2. (Not to mention group 3). But given the drastic and somewhat crude nature of the hormone treatments and surgeries,  how many mistakes can you make and still proceed ethically? I say you have to be pretty darn close to 100%. And that is not possible right now, if ever.

 

 

This is a good post and spells out the dilemma practitioners are having to wade. 

But the idea is not to steer them. Unfortunately letting the patient have the wheel can often look that way. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by AUDub

[TexasTiger 12,897]

15 minutes ago, AUDub said:

It pretty much is. In a sense I did affirm. She brought a girl home. What was I to do? Reject it out of hand? I didn't think she was gay but you can't tell her that. 

How does that differ from a child preferring different pronouns?

You hear the horror stories but the fact of the matter is that's exactly how most therapists approach the problem. There's no doubt there are unethical parents and unethical practitioners out there, but the vast majority of the "adults in the room" will have the child's best interests at heart and are focused on resolving the dysphoria. And unfortunately human psychology is messy. 

It's a matter of irl vs online, imo.

You didn’t affirm that she was gay. You characterized it correctly the first time. You affirmed you loved your daughter and it wasn’t contingent on her sexuality. You gave it time without judgment. That’s not what is known as affirmative care. It’s watchful waiting and in regard to kids claiming they are trans, it’s considered to be very different than affirmative care.
 

You keep asserting a broad faith in professionals doing the right thing without citing the basis for believing it. I linked to this up thread and don’t know if you read it, but it’s from two pro-transgender professionals, both highly regarded— not conservatives at all— sharing their deep concerns with what actually is happening in the field they work in. I hope you read it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

[AUDub 11,149]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You didn’t affirm that she was gay. You characterized it correctly the first time. You affirmed you loved your daughter and it wasn’t contingent on her sexuality. You gave it time without judgment. That’s not what is known as affirmative care. It’s watchful waiting and in regard to kids claiming they are trans, it’s considered to be very different than affirmative care

Accepting a girlfriend is affirmation. Using a child's preferred pronouns is affirmation. Accepting the child's thoughts and feelings without judgement is what it boils down to. 

It's, in essence, a zero sum game.

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You keep asserting a broad faith in professionals doing the right thing without citing the basis for believing it. I linked to this up thread and don’t know if you read it, but it’s from two pro-transgender professionals, both highly regarded— not conservatives at all— sharing their deep concerns with what actually is happening in the field they work in. I hope you read it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

Comes from experience. My oldest 3 had very traumatic early years stemming from an abusive biological father that is currently rotting in Kilby for what he did to them and my wife. There's been a lot of therapy. Imagine navigating that. They've generally done a good job, and I have a lot of faith in shrinks as a result and am essentially conditioned to assume good faith on their part, I guess. 

[TexasTiger 12,897]

18 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Accepting a girlfriend is affirmation. Using a child's preferred pronouns is affirmation. Accepting the child's thoughts and feelings without judgement is what it boils down to. 

It's, in essence, a zero sum game.

Comes from experience. My oldest 3 had very traumatic early years stemming from an abusive biological father that is currently rotting in Kilby for what he did to them and my wife. There's been a lot of therapy. Imagine navigating that. They've generally done a good job, and I have a lot of faith in shrinks as a result and am essentially conditioned to assume good faith on their part, I guess. 

And I’m not asserting bad faith. I’m asserting most are well intentioned, but Ill-prepared for the explosion of teens say they are trans. I think most are far better prepared for the issues they assisted your family with. Did you read the WaPo article I linked to?

[AUDub 11,149]

The one I keep using as an example, Ava, who turned 17 yesterday, by the way, has benefitted tremendously from the folks that provide the sort of care you pillory. She's doing awesome.

Not to brag, but 4th in her graduating class entering her senior year with a 4.45 GPA and already has her course plotted to have a masters in immunology within the next 5 years. She's got it together. In large part I thank the folks that provided her with proper mental healthcare over the last 10 years. I'll brag on myself a hair though for being her dad though lol. Here we are.

[TexasTiger 12,897]

1 minute ago, AUDub said:

The one I keep using as an example, Ava, who turned 17 yesterday, by the way, has benefitted tremendously from the folks that provide the sort of care you pillory. She's doing awesome.

Not to brag, but 4th in her graduating class entering her senior year with a 4.45 GPA and already has her course plotted to have a masters in immunology within the next 5 years. She's got it together. In large part I thank the folks that provided her with proper mental healthcare over the last 10 years. I'll brag on myself a hair though for being her dad though lol. Here we are.

With all due respect, you aren’t listening to me at all which is very frustrating. I’m happy for your family. However, you insist on equating it to the topic I’m discussing while seemingly ignoring everything I actually say and grossly distorting my words is very frustrating. I’ve pilloried no one. I’ve given you an article by progressive experts that outlines the concerns. Up to the point of this post, at least, you’ve given no indication you read it. 

[AUDub 11,149]

7 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

And I’m not asserting bad faith. I’m asserting most are well intentioned, but Ill-prepared for the explosion of teens say they are trans. Did you read the WaPo article I linked to?

I did. And it speaks to how things are right now. When they say it's a "sloppy, dangerous concern," they're exactly right. 

It's a mess. 

Everyone is trying their best in a new frontier. 

[AUDub 11,149]

There's no way it wont be. There are simply no easy answers here. 

Hence, dilemma. 

[TexasTiger 12,897]

6 hours ago, AUDub said:

Sorry, man. I've been extremely busy at work. A coworker that covers the region north of me lost his daughter and I've been covering his area since last Friday. It has not been pleasant.

The one thing I'll immediately beeline on is, why focus on said "detransitioners" at all? In reality, this is pretty much a carbon copy of the "ex-gay" thing that was VERY much a thing through the 90s and early aughts when the concept of homosexuality was still far more taboo.

"This community actively harmed me."

It's not hard to find a few folks in a population that numbers on the millions that have a grievance, reasonable or not. It was true of gay people then, it's true of trans people now.

The approach is all wrong, and it there that Herzog most saliently fails in her zeal to discredit the trans movement in general with that article. One of the examples held up in that article, Ky Schevers, has since recanted that view.

At the end of the day. it boils down to how muddy the waters are with regard to human sexuality. If you view it in the convenient terms of a binary, the answers are simple. If you view it in the much more messy terms of a spectrum, more reflective of reality, things get really weird, and people move about as they learn and figure themselves out.

Again,  where Herzog fails. There's no empathy. Wasn't so long ago her homosexuality would have put her on a similar situation and seen her pilloried in the same manner.

 

I’ve actually followed and listened to a lot of detransitioners in an effort to better understand the huge explosion in the numbers of teens declaring as trans. I’ve also followed and listened to trans folks, including those who’ve been trans for decades and those who have transitioned in the last 5-10 years. I’ve also followed and listened to professionals who promote and those that decry watchful waiting. 

 

I’ve also looked fairly deeply into the social media environment most detransitioners say they fell into while depressed.

 

We don’t have an accurate number of them for a number of reasons. Very few go back to the gender clinics that assisted their transition. Folks also have gone thru various stages of transition— Some surgically, many using hormones without surgery. But the time I’ve spent tells me the number is significant and most of their stories are real and heartbreaking. 

 

It’s tempting to lump these stories in with kids who think they’re gay, when they are not. There’s overlap, but also key differences. While sexuality impacts identity it doesn’t do so to the extent of changing gender. One can safely explore sexuality without risking long-term health or fertility. The path back from thinking you’re gay is relatively short.

 

In listening to detransitioners I’ve heard common themes- they had larger mental health issues that weren’t addressed— once they said they were trans, that was treated as the cause of other mental health issues. Many spent an inordinate amount of time online. The vast majority I’ve listened to are NOT anti-transition and don’t want to be used by those that are. Most are not particularly religious, like many folks who were claiming to be converted from gay as you seem to be equating them to.

 

Most had far less emotional and other support when they decided to detransition— an almost total lack of empathy.

 

They said their trans friends saw their detransitioning as a threat to the larger narrative— this is the reason Herzog & Singal have been criticized, no matter how fair and balanced their articles— it’s the fact that they tell the detransitioners’ stories at all. Frankly, that’s what you seem to be saying here. Actually, both Herzog & Singal strongly opposed DeSantis’ actions in regard to trans kids care— neither are anti-transition.

 

I don’t mean to flame you, but to be perfectly honest I’m struck by you parroting an attack on Herzog for telling other people’s stories in a balanced, fair way and then asserting that shows a lack of empathy on her part. She’s showing empathy for a marginalized group that gets little attention in the mainstream media— and you’re essentially saying they don’t warrant empathy.

[AUDub 11,149]

10 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

With all due respect, you aren’t listening to me at all which is very frustrating. I’m happy for your family. However, you insist on equating it to the topic I’m discussing while seemingly ignoring everything I actually say and grossly distorting my words is very frustrating. I’ve pilloried no one. I’ve given you an article by progressive experts that outlines the concerns. Up to the point of this post, at least, you’ve given no indication you read it. 

I'm exhausted lol. Guess I did go off on a tangent and for that I apologize. 

[AUDub 11,149]

We'll continue this later. I was in Lexington last night and have to be in Foley today.

The windshield time is wearing on me.