Dylan Mulvaney

[homersapien 11,440]

8 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Don’t agree it’s self-evident. Identity and attraction have no obvious link that you’ve articulated or I can see.

Question— are you attracted to a person based on their sex (either opposite sex attraction or same sex attraction) or gender?

1) That both are concerned with human sexuality is self-evident to me and I think many others.  OK if you disagree. 

2) I am personally attracted to members of the opposite sex/gender. (In this case, sex = gender.) 

Why do you ask?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

1) That both are concerned with human sexuality is self-evident to me and I think many others.  OK if you disagree. 

2) I am personally attracted to members of the opposite sex/gender. (In this case, sex = gender.) 

Why do you ask?

So you would be equally attracted to a person born as male who identifies as female as you would a person born as female who identifies as female?

[homersapien 11,440]

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

So you would be equally attracted to a person born as male who identifies as female as you would a person born as female who identifies as female?

It's certainly possible.  (Especially if I wasn't aware of "her" past.)

It would depend on the full set of attributes.  I knew of a homosexual in Auburn that would cross dress and easily pass at frat parties (for example.)

Anyway, assuming you are heterosexual, wouldn't the same be true for you?

Edited May 7, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 13,006]

9 minutes ago, homersapien said:

It's certainly possible.  (Especially if I wasn't aware of "her" past.)

It would depend on the full set of attributes.  Assuming you are heterosexual, wouldn't the same be true for you?

What if the person hadn’t had the complete surgical transformation, ie, original genitalia is intact? 
 

To answer your question, I’m opposite sex attracted. The person’s personal sense of gender doesn’t determine my physical attraction. 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

8 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

What if the person hadn’t had the complete surgical transformation, ie, original genitalia is intact? 

This person is walking around nude?

Do you think that at any point in your life, you may have looked at a transgender female and said to yourself, "wow", she is smoking hot", not know this was a transgender female?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

1 minute ago, icanthearyou said:

This person is walking around nude?

Do you think that at any point in your life, you may have looked at a transgender female and said to yourself, "wow", she is smoking hot", not know this was a transgender female?

Perhaps. But if so, it was not based on that person’s “gender” as Homer’s defined it but rather that person’s ability to look like a clothed biological woman.  Do you define those terms the same as Homer?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

7 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Perhaps. But if so, it was not based on that person’s “gender” as Homer’s defined it but rather that person’s ability to look like a clothed biological woman.  Do you define those terms the same as Homer?

I do not understand your question.  Is attraction not,,, attraction?

Edited May 7, 2023 by icanthearyou

[TexasTiger 13,006]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

I do not understand your question.  Is attraction not,,, attraction?

How do you define gender identity? How do you define sexual orientation? That was the question.

Homer’s response:

Agree with Homer?

[homersapien 11,440]

22 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

What if the person hadn’t had the complete surgical transformation, ie, original genitalia is intact? 
 

To answer your question, I’m opposite sex attracted. The person’s personal sense of gender doesn’t determine my physical attraction. 

Well, after I got over the initial shock it would be a major turn off. 

Let me ask you:  what if the woman is drop dead gorgeous and you weren't aware she was a transexual?  Back when you were dating, did you always ask?

Otherwise, I'm like you.  I am "opposite sex attracted". (Attracted to women.)

Do you have a point to make with this line of questioning?  I don't understand what you are trying to get at.

Edited May 8, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,440]

21 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

How do you define gender identity? How do you define sexual orientation? That was the question.

Homer’s response:

Agree with Homer?

Just to clarify, I am not real big in making the distinction between "sexual" and "gender".  (I got that quote straight off the internet.) 

I do understand the need for the distinction - especially in the field of psychology, but I don't personally think about the difference on a practical, personal level .  Practically speaking, it's the same to me.  (As it apparently is to most people - thus the need for stating the distinction in the first place.)

In other words - as a heterosexual -  gender identity and sexual attraction are the same - assuming the gender identity at issue is female .

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 13,006]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, after I got over the initial shock it would be a major turn off. 

What if a woman is drop dead gorgeous and you weren't aware she was a transexual?  Back when you were dating, did you always ask?

Otherwise, I'm like you.  I am "opposite sex attracted". (Attracted to women.)

Do you have a point to make with this line of questioning?

I don’t see gender identity and sexual orientation as analogous or even connected, although the two concepts have been successfully packaged as such. A person’s internal sense of their gender doesn’t by itself drive anyone else’s sense of attraction to them. It also doesn’t dictate who they are attracted to. A person may identify as a woman and be attracted to women, men, neither or both. Most people, however, are attracted by biological sex whether they are opposite sex-attracted or same-sex attracted. 
 

This is why many gays and lesbians feel that the T doesn’t fit with the LGB— it’s not about orientation, but rather one’s subjective sense of gender. Once lumped together, what are now currently referred to as the “LGBT community” or “LGBT issues” often involve transgender issues that don’t relate to their experience at all of being same-sex attracted. In fact, many see the concept of sex being replaced by gender as diminishing their identity as same-sex attracted people. Obviously not all gay and lesbian people share this concern and may identify with a larger struggle for rights among folks who don’t fit the norms, but particularly older gays and lesbians are often put off by the term and concept of “queer” or “queerness” which they often experienced as a slur and now see a younger generation (many who aren’t same-sex attracted and/or didn’t experience their struggle to be seen and treated  as “normal”) embracing and promoting the word they find offensive.

[homersapien 11,440]

-

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

I don’t see gender identity and sexual orientation as analogous or even connected, although the two concepts have been successfully packaged as such. A person’s internal sense of their gender doesn’t by itself drive anyone else’s sense of attraction to them. It also doesn’t dictate who they are attracted to. A person may identify as a woman and be attracted to women, men, neither or both. Most people, however, are attracted by biological sex whether they are opposite sex-attracted or same-sex attracted. 
 

This is why many gays and lesbians feel that the T doesn’t fit with the LGB— it’s not about orientation, but rather one’s subjective sense of gender. Once lumped together, what are now currently referred to as the “LGBT community” or “LGBT issues” often involve transgender issues that don’t relate to their experience at all of being same-sex attracted. In fact, many see the concept of sex being replaced by gender as diminishing their identity as same-sex attracted people. Obviously not all gay and lesbian people share this concern and may identify with a larger struggle for rights among folks who don’t fit the norms, but particularly older gays and lesbians are often put off by the term and concept of “queer” or “queerness” which they often experienced as a slur and now see a younger generation (many who aren’t same-sex attracted and/or didn’t experience their struggle to be seen and treated  as “normal”) embracing and promoting the word they find offensive.

OK.

Not sure how you don't see the connection between sexual attraction and gender though.  I suppose that's possible with a "bi-sexual", but I'm not.  I am attracted to women only.

In other words, I am attracted (sexually) only to women (female gender.)  Don't see how you can say there's no connection. That seems nonsensical to me.

Therefore, if a transexual female looks and acts like an attractive woman, then I would most likely be attracted to her - presumably, as would any heterosexual man.  So I think your second sentence is wrong.  The transexual woman's "sense of gender" - in this case - obviously drives other's sense of attraction to them, if we are talking heterosexuals.

Now, as to the percentage of transsexual woman who are sexually attracted to men - if any - I have no idea.  

But I feel its at least possible if not probable.  After all, sexual attraction to the opposite sex is a quality generally inherent - if not required - to one's gender.

Likewise, I have no idea - nor do I care -  what all the L's, G's and B's think about the T's but whatever resentment exists sounds very petty to me.

Again, not sure what the point is you are trying to make, but I think you're making this more complicated than it is.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 13,006]

53 minutes ago, homersapien said:

OK.

Not sure how you don't see the connection between sexual attraction and gender though.  I suppose that's possible with a "bi-sexual", but I'm not.  I am attracted to women only.

Therefore, if a transexual female looks and acts like an attractive woman, then I would most likely be attracted to her - as would any heterosexual man.  So I think your second sentence is wrong.  The transexual woman's "sense of gender" in this case obviously drives other's sense of attraction to them.

Now, what percentage of transexual woman care about men at all - much less being attractive to them - I have no idea.   But I am pretty sure both are at least possible.

Likewise, I have no idea - nor do I care -  what all the L's, G's and B's thick about the T's but whatever resentment exists sounds very petty to me.

Again, not sure what the point is you are trying to make, but you seem to be making this more complicated than it is.

 

 

Not sure I’m making it complicated. Complexity exists whether folks realize it or not. 
 

You state two distinct things and then conflate them. You’re only potentially attracted to a trans woman who initially convinces you she’s a woman with all the requisite anatomy. If she turns out not to be or if that person never attracts you at all, her sense of gender was ultimately not determinative of your attraction— her biology was the critical element. Having the appearance of a biological woman is what attracted you. Even then, if you discover you have matching genitalia, that illusion is gone as is much of your attraction, even while her sense of gender remains.

 I suspect if you saw a gorgeous biological female who’s subjective sense of gender was largely nonexistent, you’d still find her attractive, at least initially. Perhaps you would find her even more attractive if she was more traditionally “feminine,” but her subjective sense of gender would not be the primary driver, but rather secondary.

I know older gays and lesbians who came out when it was difficult to do so and they were waging the battle for gay rights they see many young folks take for granted. Most have no problem with trans rights, but just don’t see it as the same issues they have and see organizations they often founded not meeting their needs anymore. To dismiss them as petty lacks empathy. Many see lgbt organizations now telling them they should be attracted to gender, not sex, which they see as denying their same sex attraction. This article highlights some lesbians experience:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385

[homersapien 11,440]

11 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You state two distinct things and then conflate them. You’re only potentially attracted to a trans woman who initially convinces you she’s a woman with all the requisite anatomy. If she turns out not to be or if that person never attracts you at all, her sense of gender made no difference.

Correct.  I am only attracted to what I perceive is a woman.

11 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

 I suspect if you saw a gorgeous biological female who’s subjective sense of gender was largely nonexistent, you’d still find her attractive, at least initially. Perhaps you would find her even more attractive if she was more traditionally “feminine,” but her subjective sense of gender would not be the primary driver, but rather secondary.

Correct (obviously).  But her "subjective sense of gender" doesn't play any role whatsoever.  Certainly not a "driver" (whatever that's supposed to mean.)

 

 

I know older gays and lesbians who came out when it was difficult to do so and they were waging the battle for gay rights they see many young folks take for granted. Most have no problem with trans rights, but just don’t see it as the same issues they have and see organizations they often founded not meeting their needs anymore. To dismiss them as petty lacks empathy. Many see lgbt organizations now telling them they should be attracted to gender, not sex, which they see as denying their same sex attraction. This article highlights some lesbians experience:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385t

I disagree. I consider that petty.  

(I also consider it to be irrelevant - or at least I would if I knew what this discussion is about. )

But then, I am not expert in what the LGBQT as a whole - or in part - thinks.

Maybe wdefrmtx can shed some light on it.  He apparently has an opinion (on something).

Edited May 8, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 13,006]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I disagree. I consider that petty.  

(I also consider it to be irrelevant - or at least I would if I knew what this discussion is about. )

But then, I am not expert in what the LGBQT as a whole - or in part - thinks.

Did you actually read the article I linked to?

[homersapien 11,440]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Did you actually read the article I linked to?

Yes.  Regardless, I still think it's wrong for anyone to be coerced, pressured or otherwise criticized for their sexual practices.  It's petty on the part of those who do so, not to mention none of their damn business.

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 13,006]

8 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Yes.  I think it's wrong for anyone to be coerced, pressured or otherwise criticized for their sexual practices.  It's petty on the part of those who do so, not to mention none of their damn business.

 

This article includes several reasons many lesbians in particular feel let down by lgbt groups that no longer represent their interests. Would you think it petty if trans people wanted a trans rights group that focuses exclusively on trans rights issues? If not, why not gays & lesbians? As straight folks, should we judge them as petty for not categorizing themselves the same way many of us seem to see them as categorized— one big group of folks who are not cisgender heterosexuals?

[homersapien 11,440]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

This article includes several reasons many lesbians in particular feel let down by lgbt groups that no longer represent their interests. Would you think it petty if trans people wanted a trans rights group that focuses exclusively on trans rights issues? If not, why not gays & lesbians? As straight folks, should we judge them as petty for not categorizing themselves the same way many of us seem to see them as categorized— one big group of folks who are not cisgender heterosexuals?

Participating in a group that promotes the general interests of like people is not petty.

Criticizing pressuring or coercing other people for how their perceived sexual preferences or practices affects you is petty, self-centered and mean-spirited.

(Your last sentence is a pretty good example of how I think you are over-complicating the discussion.) 

But I'll attempt to respond:  The idea of an LGBQT "community" that is perceived by everyone else - as well as some members within that community - as being homogeneous in their values/sexuality/etc. is unfortunate.

It undoubtedly does not reflect reality. As you are apparently trying to demonstrate, a homosexual is quite different than a transsexual. I certainly don't dispute that.  I can understand how this might be seen as a problem - one way or the other - by some in that community. 

But for anyone in that "community" to respond with criticism, coercion or pressure on individuals in a any other segment of that "community" for their individual sexual proclivities, PETTY, mean-spirited and wrong. 

 

[TexasTiger 13,006]

20 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Participating in a group that promotes the general interests of like people is not petty.

Criticizing pressuring or coercing other people for how their perceived sexual preferences or practices affects you is petty, self-centered and mean-spirited.

(Your last sentence is a pretty good example of how I think you are over-complicating the discussion.) 

But I'll attempt to respond:  The idea of an LGBQT "community" that is perceived by everyone else - as well as some members within that community - as being homogeneous in their values/sexuality/etc. is unfortunate.

It undoubtedly does not reflect reality. As you are apparently trying to demonstrate, a homosexual is quite different than a transsexual. I certainly don't dispute that.  I can understand how this might be seen as a problem - one way or the other - by some in that community. 

But for anyone in that "community" to respond with criticism, coercion or pressure on individuals in a any other segment of that "community" for their individual sexual proclivities, PETTY, mean-spirited and wrong. 

 

I’m hardly the one introducing complexity into the issues of identity and sexuality- it’s naturally there, but often oversimplified in public discourse.

[homersapien 11,440]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

This article includes several reasons many lesbians in particular feel let down by lgbt groups that no longer represent their interests. Would you think it petty if trans people wanted a trans rights group that focuses exclusively on trans rights issues? If not, why not gays & lesbians? As straight folks, should we judge them as petty for not categorizing themselves the same way many of us seem to see them as categorized— one big group of folks who are not cisgender heterosexuals?

I am not personally concerned about any of the above questions. Don't really care.

If there is such a thing as being overly "woke" that would be it.

What concerns me is persecution of anyone of an alternative sexual or gender identity by society -and by government in particular.

Beyond that, they can sort it out among themselves.

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 13,006]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I am not personally concerned about any of the above questions. Don't really care.

If there is such a thing as being overly "woke" that would be it.

 

You previously indicated lesbians expressing concerns such as in that article were petty.

[homersapien 11,440]

19 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

You previously indicated lesbians expressing concerns such as in that article were petty.

Yep.  That's consistent.   I don't think it's worth my concern.  It's petty.  I don't care.

Are you (concerned)?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Yep.  That's consistent.   I don't think it's worth my concern.  It's petty.  I don't care.

Are you (concerned)?

I think your lack of compassion for their concerns reflects misogyny and homophobia, so yeah, I have empathy for their concerns.

[homersapien 11,440]

44 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I think your lack of compassion for their concerns reflects misogyny and homophobia, so yeah, I have empathy for their concerns.

"Misogyny and homophobia"???!     Good grief.

Because I'm not particularly concerned or upset that (some) lesbians are upset with (some) transsexuals because the former are being criticized by (someone) for not being sexually attracted to trans women, I am "misogynistic" and "homophobic"?  

Apparently I'm just not as sensitive as you, but that just doesn't make my list of concerns, of which I have plenty.

Either that, or you are joking.

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 13,006]

17 minutes ago, homersapien said:

"Misogyny and homophobia"???!     Good grief.

Because I'm not particularly concerned or upset that (some) lesbians are upset with (some) transsexuals because the former are being criticized by (someone) for not being sexually attracted to trans women, I am "misogynistic" and "homophobic"?  

Apparently I'm just not as sensitive as you, but that just doesn't make my list of concerns, of which I have plenty.

Either that, or you are joking.

 

 

 

Not joking at all. Women have valid concerns. Lesbians have valid concerns. You haven’t taken the time to inform yourself beyond a surface level on topics for which you, nonetheless, render strong judgements. You’re dismissive of their concerns. I was, too. Then I began to actually listen. You’re entitled to your views. You asked me a question and I answered.