WaDE'05 8 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I'm not trying to beat a dead horse or anything, but it just occurred to me that this whole deal may have a little less to do with football and athletics and more to do with some bigger issues concerning how most Universities this day and age operate. In another thread on this board I saw a quote form an articl that said.... Petee felt pressure to help undergraduate students remain on pace to graduate, Corzine said. For some reason, this gave me a pretty good guess as to what has happened in all this, and who is really responsible. I don't really want to put words into anyone's mouth or thoughts into anyone's head, but in my experience here at AU over the last few years I've run into a lot of this type stuff with instructors and departments and deans and colleges and so forth, so I feel like a have a little better perspective on it than I would really ever want to have. As a student I think this pressure that Dr. Petee is said to have felt to graduate students on time is a very, very relevant issue/concern. Since the University switched to a semester system, graduating on time has been tougher. I think the majority of students at the university fall behind by atleast one semester during there time at AU, whether it be due to illness, injury, finacial problems, family issues, personal problems, lack of maturity/motivation, etc., etc. The problem is that when students fall behind in the semester system they tend to fall further behind and catching up is a lot more difficult, becuase classes aren't offered as regularly and taking 12 hrs every other quarter in order to "catch up" is a lot more tolerable than taking 18 hours every semester. The problem is compounded when a student has a good chance of getting a job after four years of college but is still 18 hrs behind or when money is tight around the household (esp. for out of state students) and a student has to stay around for another semester or two as a result. I think this is the reason why classes like Dr. Petee's are sprining up. A professor has a student in a few of his/her regular classes, he/she develops a bit of a relationship with that student and one day that student comes to the professor and says "I just got offered this job and I'm supposed to start in May, but I'm behind and need to take 21 hrs this semester to graduate" or "My parents are dropping 15 grand a year in tuition for me to got to school here and they can't afford another year, I've gotta catch up..." and professors like Dr. Petee with the best intentions, offer a course like we've been talking about to help them out. Pretty soon, everyone who has found themselves in this predicament, is coming to well meaning professors like Dr. Petee, and a guy like him, who has a problem turning down someone who feels is just another victim of a system designed to prolong a students time at a university and therefore bring more $$$ to said university, can't say no. After a while, a guy who has a bit of a chip on his shoulder because he believes he's is not getting the respect he deserves sees this and calls up the NYT. After a while, this guy is getting blasted by the national media, for simply trying to look out for some kids who were in a bit of a bind. I really feel for Dr. Petee. I have never taken one of his classes, but i know a few professors that are very much like him, in that they would go out of their way to help a student out in situations such as these, and I could see this happening to any of a number of professors at the University or any college for that matter. As much as people want to believe some Bammers had something to do with this or whatever, I believe the truth is that this is just the result of a system that needs some tweaking and two different guys, one who saw the big picture in some kids lives and tried to help them out and one who saw the adoration this man was getting as a result an decided to shoot his mouth off out of spite. It really sickens me that Prof. Gundlach is considered an ""Auburn Man"". jhmo.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wishbone 0 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Wade, Good Analysis. Alot of favors get done for students to get them through the system. The unwritten rule is that you never discuss this. BTW, How much is tuition at AU now. It was less than $1,000 a quarter in my day and I graduated in 1998. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaDE'05 8 Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Wade,Good Analysis. Alot of favors get done for students to get them through the system. The unwritten rule is that you never discuss this. BTW, How much is tuition at AU now. It was less than $1,000 a quarter in my day and I graduated in 1998. 250082[/snapback] 'round $3000 a semester for in state and $8000 for out of state after course fees student fees and all that, but that's assuming you aren't in a major that requires a bunch of additional costs like Architecture, Industrial design, etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubie16 1 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I'm from Georgia...and I pay around 7,500 a semester to attend Auburn. It is close to $15,000 a year. Multiply that times 4 1/2 years for me to graduate and it equals $67,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan4Auburn 1,626 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Nice post Wade. I took a socioloy in the fall, and I know some students in that class were complaining about classes that the needed being full or not offered. Your right about the prof's also, and I got a pefect example of that. I'm in the middle of a academic complaint toward one instructor that declined my approved university excuses when my grandmother had a stroke and wouldn't let me make up work. I had another instructor last semester that I have had twice, and their response when this happened was take you time and we will work out, and if you need I'll give you incomplete and will finish it during the semester break. I feel the pain on the staying also, I was suppose to graduate summer but that one class put me here for another semester. If your a student that goes to class and does 95% of their work I've found that a majority of instructors will help you in some form or another. Not to defend the guy, cause I don't condone what he did at all and detest him and I never had him or knew him, someone else sent the letter to the times and referred them to him him. I heard the Thamel interview and he said it was a anonymous letter and it said talk to Gundlach about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFTiger 282 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Wade05 has just started a reasonable discussion on the issue. As a parent, I have had to pay an entire semester so my student could take the one required course needed for graduation. It is offered only once per year. Look, I have been through stuff like this in another life and somehow after all of the insults, gnashing of teeth, and protestations, the sytem ends up better. If Auburn takes a hard look at both the independent study courses and the scheduling problems, Auburn will end up with the best in the nation. As Wade said, this is not just an auburn problem but a nationwide problem. The switch to the semester system has caused a lot of problems in unanticipated ways. In the conversion from quarter to semester, syllabuses were simply plugged in and extended the time needed to complete a program. In the two year schools, a six quarter program became a six semster program and went from two years to three years. What was the reason for the change? Money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,431 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 You should be writing for the NY Times or have a radio show in Bham. You are far closer to solving the real problem than the media ever will be. I teach college. We have to adjust all the times to numbers of students and type of course needed by them. Some years it will be DB Adm. Some years it will be graphics, web development, etc. Universities have to change all the time. Petee was having to cover for a terminally ill faculty member, and an avalanche of students. He was likely wearing about three hats and it finally caught up with him. I think though that in the long run that AU will have to take some responsibility for not getting adequate help for him in thaty situation. He should probably be reprimanded in one area and applauded in another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80Tiger 899 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 This is a major issue. I have a daughter that is moving into her last year. She is in school this summer. We are already battling the "administration" concerning classes she needs and when they are offered. Even though we would like her to graduate next spring, she may not be able to becauses of certain classed not being offered or already "full". This is a re-occuring issue that I continue to hear from many people. I believe that the administration will not do anything about it until forced. It is a money issue. If you can get students to take 12 to 14 hours per semester or not offer classes on a timely basis, then you guarantee extra semesters and extra income to the university. The payor then is paying a premium for his/her degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weagle98 119 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Wade05 has just started a reasonable discussion on the issue. As a parent, I have had to pay an entire semester so my student could take the one required course needed for graduation. It is offered only once per year.Look, I have been through stuff like this in another life and somehow after all of the insults, gnashing of teeth, and protestations, the sytem ends up better. If Auburn takes a hard look at both the independent study courses and the scheduling problems, Auburn will end up with the best in the nation. As Wade said, this is not just an auburn problem but a nationwide problem. The switch to the semester system has caused a lot of problems in unanticipated ways. In the conversion from quarter to semester, syllabuses were simply plugged in and extended the time needed to complete a program. In the two year schools, a six quarter program became a six semster program and went from two years to three years. What was the reason for the change? Money? 250117[/snapback] I was on campus at the time they were discussing the change. It was something like 80% of students didn't want to change to semesters and about 70% or professors did. We see who won. If you think about it, it is easier for a professor to just prepare for 2 classes a year instead of 3. Much more relaxed schedule. I just finished my masters at an institution that uses the semester system and it sucked. I felt bored after about 8 weeks of a class and was ready for the next round. The classes feel streatched out and I was used to a fast pace. I don't know if I would have made it through AU on the semester system. I don't think a lot of the problems were unanticipated. These items were brought up at the time. The admin was just hell bent on changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaDE'05 8 Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Thanks for the responses guys, I feel like everything that has been said has been right on the money. It's good to know that other people see what is going on. I can not tell you how many people, myself included that ended up having to wait to graduate do to a course offering conflict or something else of that nature. The question is, how do we go about initiating change? The semester system makes a lot more money for the university and is easier on the professors (at least the ones who could care less when a student graduates) unfortuantely this is all done at the expense of the student, and this is not just an Auburn problem, I'd say probably 80% of schools in the nation are on the exact same system. SO how do you fix a problem on that grad of a scale, that most universities don't even recognize as a problem? I'd love to hear what David and any other college instructors have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetermary 6 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 This is a major issue. I have a daughter that is moving into her last year. She is in school this summer. We are already battling the "administration" concerning classes she needs and when they are offered. Even though we would like her to graduate next spring, she may not be able to becauses of certain classed not being offered or already "full". This is a re-occuring issue that I continue to hear from many people. I believe that the administration will not do anything about it until forced. It is a money issue. If you can get students to take 12 to 14 hours per semester or not offer classes on a timely basis, then you guarantee extra semesters and extra income to the university. The payor then is paying a premium for his/her degree. 250132[/snapback] This is exactly why all students need to meet with their advisors regularly. They will tell students that such and such class is only offered in the spring, etc., so you need to go ahead and take it. It happens everywhere. I had that problem at UAB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saniflush 0 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 The question is, how do we go about initiating change? The semester system makes a lot more money for the university and is easier on the professors (at least the ones who could care less when a student graduates) unfortuantely this is all done at the expense of the student, and this is not just an Auburn problem, I'd say probably 80% of schools in the nation are on the exact same system. SO how do you fix a problem on that grad of a scale, that most universities don't even recognize as a problem? I'd love to hear what David and any other college instructors have to say. 250145[/snapback] Have better advisers. Almost every "adviser" I have been around knew about as much about helping a student plan their educational path as Kentucky knows about winning football games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan4Auburn 1,626 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 This is a major issue. I have a daughter that is moving into her last year. She is in school this summer. We are already battling the "administration" concerning classes she needs and when they are offered. Even though we would like her to graduate next spring, she may not be able to becauses of certain classed not being offered or already "full". This is a re-occuring issue that I continue to hear from many people. I believe that the administration will not do anything about it until forced. It is a money issue. If you can get students to take 12 to 14 hours per semester or not offer classes on a timely basis, then you guarantee extra semesters and extra income to the university. The payor then is paying a premium for his/her degree. 250132[/snapback] This is exactly why all students need to meet with their advisors regularly. They will tell students that such and such class is only offered in the spring, etc., so you need to go ahead and take it. It happens everywhere. I had that problem at UAB. 250157[/snapback] It doesn't matter when it is if its full though. What they need to do is come up a priority for those students that are graduating that semester to make sure that they get in the class. I agree that people should see their advisors and pointing out the once a year class is a good point. There are some of those that are offered once a year and have a few prereqs. So you can't get into until your senior year, and if its full then your coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan4Auburn 1,626 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 The question is, how do we go about initiating change? The semester system makes a lot more money for the university and is easier on the professors (at least the ones who could care less when a student graduates) unfortuantely this is all done at the expense of the student, and this is not just an Auburn problem, I'd say probably 80% of schools in the nation are on the exact same system. SO how do you fix a problem on that grad of a scale, that most universities don't even recognize as a problem? I'd love to hear what David and any other college instructors have to say. 250145[/snapback] Have better advisers. Almost every "adviser" I have been around knew about as much about helping a student plan their educational path as Kentucky knows about winning football games. 250158[/snapback] Ug that sucks man. I have had good advisors that had alot of knowledge about instructors. Course that probably explains why noone would be waiting on other advisors and Mrs. Huggins would have 5 people sitting outside her office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saniflush 0 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 The question is, how do we go about initiating change? The semester system makes a lot more money for the university and is easier on the professors (at least the ones who could care less when a student graduates) unfortuantely this is all done at the expense of the student, and this is not just an Auburn problem, I'd say probably 80% of schools in the nation are on the exact same system. SO how do you fix a problem on that grad of a scale, that most universities don't even recognize as a problem? I'd love to hear what David and any other college instructors have to say. 250145[/snapback] Have better advisers. Almost every "adviser" I have been around knew about as much about helping a student plan their educational path as Kentucky knows about winning football games. 250158[/snapback] Ug that sucks man. I have had good advisors that had alot of knowledge about instructors. Course that probably explains why noone would be waiting on other advisors and Mrs. Huggins would have 5 people sitting outside her office. 250178[/snapback] I wish I would have known about Mrs. Huggins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFTiger 282 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 So who was more interested in their students, Grunlach or Petee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaDE'05 8 Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Student advisors are hit or miss. What sucks is that you get assigned to one alphabetically when you enroll in a certain college, so it's basically luck of the draw. My alphabetically assigned advisor was horrible, but of course as an underclassmen I didn't know any better so I really didn't try to do anything to change it, until one day during a summer semester I had to go to a different advisor. Suddenly, I realized how much easier things are when you have a competent and caring student advisor (who ironically set me up with my first independent study course). She knew the ins and outs of my course of study and which classes were offered when and which classes could substitute for others. She even asked me why I had taken Microeconomics a second time after failing and GAPing it. I told her it was becuase I had to for my major (which is what my orginal advisor had told me). She corrected me and said that I could take anyone of three classes, one of which was a political science class that wasn't any esier than micro but was just a little better suited for the way I think. I took it and made an A. If i would have known this in the beginning I would have saved some money, a lot of long nights in the library, and a lot of frustration. My alphabetically assigned advisor did nothing for me that I couldn't do for myself with the help of a calculator and a curriculum sheet from my department. I believe you guys are right, with the semester system in tact, the people who are really saving this from being a huge mess are the good, well-informed, competent, caring advisors, and the proffesors who in many cases act like in that capacity. With out people like Mrs. Huggins, Mrs. Kirby (who is now gone), and professors that are willing to go out of their way like Dr. Petee the majority of students would be looking at 5 and a half to six years to earn and undergrad degree. Unfortunately these people are few and far between... Also, just out of curiosity..... Since AU switched to semesters has anyone themselelf, or does anyone know some one who has graduated in the traditional manner, i.e in 4 years without taking summer classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaDE'05 8 Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 So who was more interested in their students, Grunlach or Petee? 250250[/snapback] I don't personally know either, but judging from what I've heard, I'd say Petee, to an almost adverse extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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