It's all about Iraq, isn't it?

[Tigermike 3,055]

It's all about Iraq, isn't it?

Yep, it's all about Iraq and...

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow

the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

Qur'an, Sura 9:29

[autiger4life 3]

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow

the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

Qur'an, Sura 9:29

You really can be an embarrasment. First, this is actually what Sura 9:29 says:

You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

Here is another verse from the Qur'an: “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors.” Al-Qur’an 2:190

God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just.

(Quran, 60:8)

Now here are some from the Bible: EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes"

My point is this, the verses from the Bible can be looked at said they are taken out of context just as you did with teh verse you posted. It is people like you and ignorance like you show that causes so much hatred in the world.

[WAR EAGLE!!! 0]

It is people like you and ignorance like you show that causes so much hatred in the world.

I agree. How dare you tigermike kill innocent lives. How dare you attend that church cel that is conspiring to blow up subways, busses, and buildings. How dare you tigermike chop the head off of innocent reporters and workers over in Iraq just because they are american. You are such a disgrace and you are the reason for the violence....

[AUdaREALsecTigers 2]

It is people like you and ignorance like you show that causes so much hatred in the world.

Guess you got your Ahmadinejad rally tickets...

[Captain Liger 0]

It is people like you and ignorance like you show that causes so much hatred in the world.

You know, you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right. It's a shame we can't all be enlightened as you when it comes to the true ways of Islam. It's a good thing you've got all those verses of the Koran memorized. Two gold stars for you. Now, run along.

[Tigermike 3,055]

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow

the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

Qur'an, Sura 9:29

You really can be an embarrasment. First, this is actually what Sura 9:29 says:

You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

Here is another verse from the Qur'an: “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors.” Al-Qur’an 2:190

God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just.

(Quran, 60:8)

Now here are some from the Bible: EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes"

My point is this, the verses from the Bible can be looked at said they are taken out of context just as you did with teh verse you posted. It is people like you and ignorance like you show that causes so much hatred in the world.

The only embarrassment is you trying to make Islam look like The Religion of Peace. All those countries listed in the original post have had people murdered by Muslims. Show me where that is wrong to acknowledge and point out the TRUTH is wrong.

The only embarrassment is you and your continuing attempt to make Islam into something it is not. This isn't the first time you have quoted verses from the Quran and completely misrepresented what is said and what is meant. So far I can not decide if you are just naive or a apologist for Islam or both. Taking one verse out of the Quran to make an argument of the goodness of Islam and Muslims in general is not only dishonest but stupid as well

It is people like you who go out of their way to look the other way in the face of evil. Yes I said it EVIL, the Quran and it's teachings are completely evil. Strange you stopped at 191.

These verses seem to say clearly enough that the Qur’an teaches a peaceful response to those who oppose Islam. But there are other verses in the Qur’an which say quite the opposite. For example “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5 (we will have a closer look at this verse later on).

Which verse should Muslims follow? According to the doctrine of abrogation, the later texts supersede the earlier whenever there are inconsistencies, or they are said to “abrogate” the earlier texts. Therefore, a Muslim simply needs to know which verse came earlier, and which came later. The importance of the doctrine of abrogation cannot be understated. In a mosque in the city of Kufa, Ali b. Abi Talib once saw people gathering around the judge, Abdur-Rahman. The judge was confusing that which is permissible with that which is not. Ali asked him whether he could tell the abrogative verses from the abrogated; he said that he could not. Ali then grabbed the man's ear, twisted it, and said: "you perish, and you make others perish. Do not judge in our mosque anymore.''

That is how important it is; the person who doesn’t know abrogation shall “perish and make others perish”, according to Ali Ibn abi Talib

Bringing other religions down to the level of Islam is one of the most popular strategies of Muslim apologists when confronted with the spectacle of Islamic violence. Remember Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber? Why pick on Islam if other religions have the same problems?

The Truth is, because they don’t.

Regardless of what his birth certificate may or may not have said, Timothy McVeigh was not a religious man. At no time did he credit his deeds to religion, quote Bible verses, or claim that he killed for God.

The so-called “members of other faiths” alluded to by Muslims are nearly always just nominal members who have no active involvement. They are neither inspired by, nor do they credit religion as Muslim terrorists do, and this is what makes it a very different matter.

Islam is associated with Islamic terrorism because that is the association that the terrorists themselves choose to make.

Muslims who compare crime committed by people who happen to be nominal members of other religions to religious terror committed explicitly in the name of Islam are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, some of the abortion clinic bombers were religious (as Muslims enjoy pointing out), but consider the scope of the problem. There were five deadly attacks over a 35 year period in the U.S. Seven people died. This is an average of one death every five years.

By contrast, Islamic terrorists have staged over seven thousand deadly attacks in just the five years following September 11th, 2001. If one goes back to 1971, when Muslim armies in Bangladesh began the mass slaughter of Hindus, through the years of Jihad in the Sudan, Kashmir and Algeria, and the present-day Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, the number of innocents killed in the name of Islam probably exceeds five million over this same period.

In the last six years, there have been perhaps a dozen or so religiously-inspired killings by people of all other faiths combined. No other religion produces the killing sprees that Islam does nearly every day of the year. Neither do they have verses in their holy texts that arguably support it. Nor do they have large groups across the globe dedicated to the mass murder of people who worship a different god, as the broader community of believers struggles with ambivalence and a radical clergy that supports the terror.

Muslims may like to pretend that other religions are just as subject to "misinterpretation" as is their “perfect” one, but the reality speaks of something far worse.

Do Muslims only kill in self-defense? Muslims and Muslim apologist often claim that their religion only orders them to kill in self-defense (i.e.. when their own lives are in danger). The truth is that the list of countries in the original post have all had terrorists acts committed by Muslims. And that list is not complete.

I will leave you with a simple question: Does Islam mean peace?

[autiger4life 3]

The only embarrassment is you trying to make Islam look like The Religion of Peace. All those countries listed in the original post have had people murdered by Muslims. Show me where that is wrong to acknowledge and point out the TRUTH is wrong.

The only embarrassment is you and your continuing attempt to make Islam into something it is not. This isn't the first time you have quoted verses from the Quran and completely misrepresented what is said and what is meant. So far I can not decide if you are just naive or a apologist for Islam or both. Taking one verse out of the Quran to make an argument of the goodness of Islam and Muslims in general is not only dishonest but stupid as well

It is people like you who go out of their way to look the other way in the face of evil. Yes I said it EVIL, the Quran and it's teachings are completely evil. Strange you stopped at 191.

These verses seem to say clearly enough that the Qur’an teaches a peaceful response to those who oppose Islam. But there are other verses in the Qur’an which say quite the opposite. For example “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5 (we will have a closer look at this verse later on).

Which verse should Muslims follow? According to the doctrine of abrogation, the later texts supersede the earlier whenever there are inconsistencies, or they are said to “abrogate” the earlier texts. Therefore, a Muslim simply needs to know which verse came earlier, and which came later. The importance of the doctrine of abrogation cannot be understated. In a mosque in the city of Kufa, Ali b. Abi Talib once saw people gathering around the judge, Abdur-Rahman. The judge was confusing that which is permissible with that which is not. Ali asked him whether he could tell the abrogative verses from the abrogated; he said that he could not. Ali then grabbed the man's ear, twisted it, and said: "you perish, and you make others perish. Do not judge in our mosque anymore.''

That is how important it is; the person who doesn’t know abrogation shall “perish and make others perish”, according to Ali Ibn abi Talib

Bringing other religions down to the level of Islam is one of the most popular strategies of Muslim apologists when confronted with the spectacle of Islamic violence. Remember Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber? Why pick on Islam if other religions have the same problems?

The Truth is, because they don’t.

Regardless of what his birth certificate may or may not have said, Timothy McVeigh was not a religious man. At no time did he credit his deeds to religion, quote Bible verses, or claim that he killed for God.

The so-called “members of other faiths” alluded to by Muslims are nearly always just nominal members who have no active involvement. They are neither inspired by, nor do they credit religion as Muslim terrorists do, and this is what makes it a very different matter.

Islam is associated with Islamic terrorism because that is the association that the terrorists themselves choose to make.

Muslims who compare crime committed by people who happen to be nominal members of other religions to religious terror committed explicitly in the name of Islam are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, some of the abortion clinic bombers were religious (as Muslims enjoy pointing out), but consider the scope of the problem. There were five deadly attacks over a 35 year period in the U.S. Seven people died. This is an average of one death every five years.

By contrast, Islamic terrorists have staged over seven thousand deadly attacks in just the five years following September 11th, 2001. If one goes back to 1971, when Muslim armies in Bangladesh began the mass slaughter of Hindus, through the years of Jihad in the Sudan, Kashmir and Algeria, and the present-day Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, the number of innocents killed in the name of Islam probably exceeds five million over this same period.

In the last six years, there have been perhaps a dozen or so religiously-inspired killings by people of all other faiths combined. No other religion produces the killing sprees that Islam does nearly every day of the year. Neither do they have verses in their holy texts that arguably support it. Nor do they have large groups across the globe dedicated to the mass murder of people who worship a different god, as the broader community of believers struggles with ambivalence and a radical clergy that supports the terror.

Muslims may like to pretend that other religions are just as subject to "misinterpretation" as is their “perfect” one, but the reality speaks of something far worse.

Do Muslims only kill in self-defense? Muslims and Muslim apologist often claim that their religion only orders them to kill in self-defense (i.e.. when their own lives are in danger). The truth is that the list of countries in the original post have all had terrorists acts committed by Muslims. And that list is not complete.

I will leave you with a simple question: Does Islam mean peace?

From what I found it means submission to God. My point was this, by using the verse as you did to try and prove that Islam is a dangerous religon is just as unfair as someone using verses from Exodus or some of the other Old Testament verses from the Bible. They are taken out of context and are generally not thought of as the overall tenant of the religon.

Are there Muslims who are radicals and terrorist and want to kill people? Yea, of course. Is that the entire religon, no absolutely not. The majority of the religon wants peace and have not engaged in fighting. The majority of people we are fighting are really fighting us because they hate America's politics, not our religons.

Since 1984 there have been 24 murders or attempted murders at abortion clinics in the name of God. Since 2000 there have been 13 accounts of bombing, attempted boming, arson or attempted arson at abortion clinics in the name of God. I would hate for someone to look at this, pick out a few select verses and say that Christians are violent in nature and their God wants them to be violent.

That is my only point.

[autiger4life 3]

You know, you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right. It's a shame we can't all be enlightened as you when it comes to the true ways of Islam. It's a good thing you've got all those verses of the Koran memorized. Two gold stars for you. Now, run along.

Yes memorized, or I know they exist and know how to look things up on the internet. Very good now, here is your lunch and you have a good day.

I agree. How dare you tigermike kill innocent lives. How dare you attend that church cel that is conspiring to blow up subways, busses, and buildings. How dare you tigermike chop the head off of innocent reporters and workers over in Iraq just because they are american. You are such a disgrace and you are the reason for the violence....

That's fair, I retract my statement and revise it to say: "It is people like you and ignorance like you show that adds to the violence in this world"

The only embarrassment is you trying to make Islam look like The Religion of Peace. All those countries listed in the original post have had people murdered by Muslims. Show me where that is wrong to acknowledge and point out the TRUTH is wrong.

The only embarrassment is you and your continuing attempt to make Islam into something it is not. This isn't the first time you have quoted verses from the Quran and completely misrepresented what is said and what is meant. So far I can not decide if you are just naive or a apologist for Islam or both. Taking one verse out of the Quran to make an argument of the goodness of Islam and Muslims in general is not only dishonest but stupid as well

It is people like you who go out of their way to look the other way in the face of evil. Yes I said it EVIL, the Quran and it's teachings are completely evil. Strange you stopped at 191.

These verses seem to say clearly enough that the Qur’an teaches a peaceful response to those who oppose Islam. But there are other verses in the Qur’an which say quite the opposite. For example “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5 (we will have a closer look at this verse later on).

Which verse should Muslims follow? According to the doctrine of abrogation, the later texts supersede the earlier whenever there are inconsistencies, or they are said to “abrogate” the earlier texts. Therefore, a Muslim simply needs to know which verse came earlier, and which came later. The importance of the doctrine of abrogation cannot be understated. In a mosque in the city of Kufa, Ali b. Abi Talib once saw people gathering around the judge, Abdur-Rahman. The judge was confusing that which is permissible with that which is not. Ali asked him whether he could tell the abrogative verses from the abrogated; he said that he could not. Ali then grabbed the man's ear, twisted it, and said: "you perish, and you make others perish. Do not judge in our mosque anymore.''

That is how important it is; the person who doesn’t know abrogation shall “perish and make others perish”, according to Ali Ibn abi Talib

Bringing other religions down to the level of Islam is one of the most popular strategies of Muslim apologists when confronted with the spectacle of Islamic violence. Remember Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber? Why pick on Islam if other religions have the same problems?

The Truth is, because they don’t.

Regardless of what his birth certificate may or may not have said, Timothy McVeigh was not a religious man. At no time did he credit his deeds to religion, quote Bible verses, or claim that he killed for God.

The so-called “members of other faiths” alluded to by Muslims are nearly always just nominal members who have no active involvement. They are neither inspired by, nor do they credit religion as Muslim terrorists do, and this is what makes it a very different matter.

Islam is associated with Islamic terrorism because that is the association that the terrorists themselves choose to make.

Muslims who compare crime committed by people who happen to be nominal members of other religions to religious terror committed explicitly in the name of Islam are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, some of the abortion clinic bombers were religious (as Muslims enjoy pointing out), but consider the scope of the problem. There were five deadly attacks over a 35 year period in the U.S. Seven people died. This is an average of one death every five years.

By contrast, Islamic terrorists have staged over seven thousand deadly attacks in just the five years following September 11th, 2001. If one goes back to 1971, when Muslim armies in Bangladesh began the mass slaughter of Hindus, through the years of Jihad in the Sudan, Kashmir and Algeria, and the present-day Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, the number of innocents killed in the name of Islam probably exceeds five million over this same period.

In the last six years, there have been perhaps a dozen or so religiously-inspired killings by people of all other faiths combined. No other religion produces the killing sprees that Islam does nearly every day of the year. Neither do they have verses in their holy texts that arguably support it. Nor do they have large groups across the globe dedicated to the mass murder of people who worship a different god, as the broader community of believers struggles with ambivalence and a radical clergy that supports the terror.

Muslims may like to pretend that other religions are just as subject to "misinterpretation" as is their “perfect” one, but the reality speaks of something far worse.

Do Muslims only kill in self-defense? Muslims and Muslim apologist often claim that their religion only orders them to kill in self-defense (i.e.. when their own lives are in danger). The truth is that the list of countries in the original post have all had terrorists acts committed by Muslims. And that list is not complete.

I will leave you with a simple question: Does Islam mean peace?

From what I found it means submission to God. My point was this, by using the verse as you did to try and prove that Islam is a dangerous religon is just as unfair as someone using verses from Exodus or some of the other Old Testament verses from the Bible. They are taken out of context and are generally not thought of as the overall tenant of the religon.

Are there Muslims who are radicals and terrorist and want to kill people? Yea, of course. Is that the entire religon, no absolutely not. The majority of the religon wants peace and have not engaged in fighting. The majority of people we are fighting are really fighting us because they hate America's politics, not our religons.

Since 1984 there have been 24 murders or attempted murders at abortion clinics in the name of God. Since 2000 there have been 13 accounts of bombing, attempted boming, arson or attempted arson at abortion clinics in the name of God. I would hate for someone to look at this, pick out a few select verses and say that Christians are violent in nature and their God wants them to be violent.

That is my only point.

[Tigermike 3,055]

From what I found it means submission to God. My point was this, by using the verse as you did to try and prove that Islam is a dangerous religon is just as unfair as someone using verses from Exodus or some of the other Old Testament verses from the Bible. They are taken out of context and are generally not thought of as the overall tenant of the religon.

Are there Muslims who are radicals and terrorist and want to kill people? Yea, of course. Is that the entire religon, no absolutely not. The majority of the religon wants peace and have not engaged in fighting. The majority of people we are fighting are really fighting us because they hate America's politics, not our religons.

Since 1984 there have been 24 murders or attempted murders at abortion clinics in the name of God. Since 2000 there have been 13 accounts of bombing, attempted boming, arson or attempted arson at abortion clinics in the name of God. I would hate for someone to look at this, pick out a few select verses and say that Christians are violent in nature and their God wants them to be violent.

That is my only point.

Many claim that the root word of Islam is “al-Salaam,” which is “peace” in Arabic.

The root word for Islam is “al-Silm,” which means “submission” or “surrender.” There is no controversy about this among Islamic scholars.

Submission and peace can be very different concepts, even if a form of peace is often brought about through forcing others into submission.

In truth, the Qur’an not only calls Muslims to submit to Allah, it also commands them to subdue people of other religions until they are in a full state of submission to Islamic rule. This has inspired the aggressive history of Islam and its success in conquering other cultures.

Are Christians apologizing for those killings and bombings? No they are not. Christians condemn them outright.

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace

9/24/2007 ( Mogadishu, Somalia ) - Two local officials are assassinated by Islamic militias.

9/24/2007 ( Farah, Afghanistan ) - Islamic fundamentalists kill two Spanish soliders and an Afghan interpretor in a bomb attack.

9/23/2007 ( Pattani, Thailand ) - A young married couple are killed inside their home by Muslim gunmen.

9/23/2007 ( Malakdin Khel, Pakistan ) - A woman and her two children are killed in a clash between rival Islamic groups.

9/23/2007 ( Pattani, Thailand ) - A 24-year-old female teacher is shot to death by Islamic radicals in her home.

9/23/2007 ( Degan, Pakistan ) - Two local villagers are kidnapped and beheaded by the Taliban in separate incidents.

I guess those folks just didn't "submit to God" fast enough. Go figure.

[WAR EAGLE!!! 0]

I agree. How dare you tigermike kill innocent lives. How dare you attend that church cel that is conspiring to blow up subways, busses, and buildings. How dare you tigermike chop the head off of innocent reporters and workers over in Iraq just because they are american. You are such a disgrace and you are the reason for the violence....

That's fair, I retract my statement and revise it to say: "It is people like you and ignorance like you show that adds to the violence in this world"

You really don't get it...I am truly sad for people like you that go around with this false hope that we as "westerners" are responsible for the hate that the fundamentalist terrorist have for us. You really don't get it, but let me try and help you out. You can do NOTHING. I can do NOTHING. Our governemnt can do NOTHING to have these people stop hating us. They hate us because we are FREE to believe whatever we want to believe. They hate us because we are FREE to worship ANY god we want to worship. They hate us because you and I are FREE to have this discussion without any legal reprecussions. They hate us becuase the women here are FREE to wear whatever they want, whenever they want. They hate us because woman have every opportunity to be as successful as they want to be...in anything they want to do. They hate us because ANYONE can be as succesful here as they want to be no matter what the believe in or who they worship! That is why these people hate us. It is nothing that I do or you do or our government does. These people hate the very fundementals that has made this country great....and if you want to take that away from us, God help us all!

[autiger4life 3]

You really don't get it...I am truly sad for people like you that go around with this false hope that we as "westerners" are responsible for the hate that the fundamentalist terrorist have for us. You really don't get it, but let me try and help you out. You can do NOTHING. I can do NOTHING. Our governemnt can do NOTHING to have these people stop hating us. They hate us because we are FREE to believe whatever we want to believe. They hate us because we are FREE to worship ANY god we want to worship. They hate us because you and I are FREE to have this discussion without any legal reprecussions. They hate us becuase the women here are FREE to wear whatever they want, whenever they want. They hate us because woman have every opportunity to be as successful as they want to be...in anything they want to do. They hate us because ANYONE can be as succesful here as they want to be no matter what the believe in or who they worship! That is why these people hate us. It is nothing that I do or you do or our government does. These people hate the very fundementals that has made this country great....and if you want to take that away from us, God help us all!

Well first I'd like to take this opportunity to say thankyou for your sympathies. As far as why they hate us, I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the fact that we have been bombing them for years. Generally, and once again generally when half of your family has died, you start to hate the people who you think caused it. For instance, Gulf War, when we put the Oil Embargo on Iraq, that took away a lot of money from them. Now of course Saddam used the rest of the money to build his palaces but the people of Iraq saw it as the UN put sanction on them and now they don't have any food, medicene or power. So I think that is probably why they hate us, not because we're free.

It may help you if you use a little more common sense and a little lese George Bush.

[autiger4life 3]

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace

9/24/2007 ( Mogadishu, Somalia ) - Two local officials are assassinated by Islamic militias.

9/24/2007 ( Farah, Afghanistan ) - Islamic fundamentalists kill two Spanish soliders and an Afghan interpretor in a bomb attack.

9/23/2007 ( Pattani, Thailand ) - A young married couple are killed inside their home by Muslim gunmen.

9/23/2007 ( Malakdin Khel, Pakistan ) - A woman and her two children are killed in a clash between rival Islamic groups.

9/23/2007 ( Pattani, Thailand ) - A 24-year-old female teacher is shot to death by Islamic radicals in her home.

9/23/2007 ( Degan, Pakistan ) - Two local villagers are kidnapped and beheaded by the Taliban in separate incidents.

I guess those folks just didn't "submit to God" fast enough. Go figure.

I have yet to deny that there are Muslims out there who think they should kill everyone who is not a Muslim. There are, and no one is denying it. But just because there are people who believe that doesn't mean the entire religon should be characterized that way. That is all I am saying.

As far as the Christians killing and then it being condemned, well hell the Iranian PM just condemned the insurgents in Iraq as being terrible people when he is the one supplying them so condemning it really means little. Oh, and btw there are plenty of Muslims who condemn the Terroist attacks.

[Captain Liger 0]

Your arguments are like:

And if I have to point out the holes for you then there really is no sense in debating with you any further.

[Tigermike 3,055]

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow

the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

Qur'an, Sura 9:29

You really can be an embarrasment. First, this is actually what Sura 9:29 says:

You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

Here is another verse from the Qur'an: “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors.” Al-Qur’an 2:190

God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just.

(Quran, 60:8)

Now here are some from the Bible: EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes"

My point is this, the verses from the Bible can be looked at said they are taken out of context just as you did with teh verse you posted. It is people like you and ignorance like you show that causes so much hatred in the world.

It should be noted that the Bible verses you quoted are historical. When one reads them and the surrounding text, one understands that they refer to violence against a specific tribe or person at a specific time in history. In each of these cases, the person or tribe no longer exists.

In the Qur'an the verses are directives, not history. The subjects of violence are Jews, Christians, unbelievers and infidels (groups that are very much alive today). True, many of the verses do imply some sort of reasoning behind the duty of Muslims to attack others, whether it be their failure to accept Islamic rule or a perceived threat that they pose. In many of these cases, however, there is a high degree of subjectivity.

Who are aggressors, for example? In Islam there is no room for non-Muslims to have to defend themselves against Muslim terrorists or attackers. Such problems are handled internally, as the Taliban offered to do with bin Laden by putting him "on trial" in a Sharia court. Even though the Americans were attacked first, it is against Islam for them to retaliate, hence the subsequent resentment of the Islamic world.

In the same way, the Muslim world is remarkably tolerant of Palestinian suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. This is a proof that the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira are far more ambiguous with regard to divinely-sanctioned violence than your detractor implies.

Incidentally, the verse 9:29 was actually provided at a time when Muslims were not under attack, but were traveling to do battle with a Byzantine army that they found didn't exist. Instead, they killed some of the local Christians and subjugated the rest to Jizya (there at Tabouk) according to this verse.

In short, you do make a good point, but it is not quite as relevant to this verse as you think. This is why Muslims from the time of Muhammad have acted differently from how we would expect them to act under this "reformed" interpretation of the verse.

[autiger4life 3]

Exactly, taken out of context they mean something completely different from what they intended to mean, as I think verses from the Quran are done at times.

Once again, I'd like to re-iterate that I agree there are Muslims who want Americans dead, Muslims who want violence against anyone who is not Muslim or even a sect of their Muslim faith and I think those people should be hunted down and killed.

I also think that sometimes we might call a religon something that is really an act of the people. For instance, we have people on this board who say all Muslims should be killed, or they hate Muslims or so on. Well the Bible tells us that we should love everyone and surely never wish death upon someone. Yet someone could say, "look at these Christians who hate Muslims, see Christianity is a hateful religon". I think sometimes a Muslim country wants to kill people from another country because of political reasons and then it is put off as a Religious thing. Or hell, the Wahabi sect of Muslims want Christians dead so their religon is tainted by that when most Muslims want religious peace and tolerance(notice I said religious peace, not peace, there is a difference.)

Incidentally, the verse 9:29 was actually provided at a time when Muslims were not under attack, but were traveling to do battle with a Byzantine army that they found didn't exist. Instead, they killed some of the local Christians and subjugated the rest to Jizya (there at Tabouk) according to this verse.

I quite frankly do not have the time to do much extensive research so this is purely a question not an argument: is it possible that the verse is not saying kill them because they do not believe in Allah or the religon of truth but it is simply identifiying them in a way they would understand?

[CircleDrill 178]

Do terrorists have discussions about Islam like this? No. Can all of them even read the Koran. No. You don't have to be able to read to blow yourself up in a shopping mall.

The Koran says what they are told it says by their leaders. The Koran means what they are told it means. If they question what they are told, they are killed for being a non-believer.

What do you not understand about this? It's a problem of education, akin to the Middle Ages in Europe. The church had a pretty good grasp over everything and everyone then, remember?

It has nothing to do with a purist, idealistic interpretation of what Islam "really is." It has to do with the state in which Islam exists right in front of our eyes in the REAL WORLD. And that is nations full of largely uneducated people killing each other and killing their own people in the most terrible, most brutal ways....just like the Middle Ages.

How much education does the average male in Iraq get compared do the average male in Australia, or Germany? They get these boys at a young age and endoctrinate them with this bastardization of Islam, and that's all they know. Rinse and repeat with the next generation. How do you break that cycle? Education.

Democracy in Iraq is one step toward a solution. Unfortunately, there has to be a war to make that possible. This is a long, long process of development over there. But the more educated the populations become, and the more access to information they have, and the more freedom they have, the more they will evolve beyond this "middle-ages" type of society in which they live.

We know this will happen, because it has happened several times in the history of the world already. It's just that Islam in the Middle East has created societies that can't evolve beyond the middle ages without outside interference.

We are doing the right things.

[WAR EAGLE!!! 0]

Nice post circle!