Delegate’s reversal stuns dems

[Tigermike 3,055]

This is making the Wisconsin Democratic Party very unhappy. They nominated someone that even their own hyper-activists can't support:

Delegate’s reversal stuns party

Wisconsin Democrat now publicly supports McCain

By CRAIG GILBERT

cgilbert@journalsentinel.com

Posted: June 14, 2008

Washington - As an avid supporter of Hillary Rodham Clinton in the Democratic primaries, Debra Bartoshevich is not alone in her frustration over Clinton's defeat.

She’s not alone in refusing to support Barack Obama.

And she’s not entirely alone in saying she’ll vote this fall for Republican John McCain instead.

But what makes her unusual is that she holds these views as an elected delegate to the Democratic National Convention in Denver this summer.

“I’m sure people are going to be upset with me,” said Bartoshevich, a 41-year-old emergency room nurse from Waterford in Racine County, and convention delegate pledged to Clinton.

Joe Wineke, chairman of the Democratic Party of Wisconsin, reacted with disbelief when first told Friday afternoon that one of his state party delegates is now a McCain supporter.

“Not a delegate? To the national convention?” said Wineke, who was getting ready for the start of the Wisconsin state party convention Friday in Stevens Point.

“We have a Clinton national (convention) delegate who says she’s voting for John McCain?” Wineke repeated, for clarification. “I’ve never heard of such a thing.”

Wineke said “almost everybody I know who was for Hillary” is solidly behind Obama now. As for Bartoshevich, he said, “my suspicion is she doesn’t know what she’s getting into” because “the delegates to this convention will be very upset.” (You don't think they will spit on her do you? Curse her? Worse?)

Asked if publicly supporting the other party’s presidential nominee could affect a delegate’s convention status, Wineke said, “I never thought I’d ever get a question like this.” (There are probably a few more than you think Mr. Wineke.)

After some preliminary checking, Wineke said he assumed Bartoshevich would remain a delegate. (They might try and find a way to not allow this.)

But Friday night, after a story about Bartoshevich appeared on the Journal Sentinel’s Web site, he had apparently reconsidered. At the state Democratic Party convention, party members, including Clinton supporters, unanimously passed a resolution asking the national party not to seat Bartoshevich at the Denver convention. Wineke spoke in favor of the resolution. (Damn that didn't take long)

Another pledged Clinton delegate, Paula Dorsey of Milwaukee, offered the resolution.

Dorsey said trying to expel her fellow Democrat from the party’s convention “hurts my soul and it hurts my heart,” but it is the party’s presumptive nominee, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), whom convention delegates must support.

An unusual decision

The McCain campaign said that, nationally, it was not aware at this point of any other delegates to the Democratic convention (it may know of an alternate, it said) who have come out for the Republican candidate.

In an interview, Bartoshevich expressed lingering unhappiness over the Democratic nominating process, said Clinton was treated unfairly by the party and said she has deep reservations about Obama’s lack of experience and his judgment.

“I’m kind of disenfranchised,” she said.

She said she planned to vote for Clinton at the convention, but in an Obama-McCain matchup in November, “I will not be voting for Obama. I will cast my vote for John McCain.

(She just doesn't trust Barack Obama.)

“I just feel you need to have somebody who has experience with foreign matters.”

She said a series of controversial Obama associations, including but not limited to the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Chicago developer Tony Rezko, reflected poorly on his judgment. And she echoed the complaints of many of Clinton’s most ardent supporters that Clinton was treated unfairly in the nominating process and by the party.

“No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her — that’s by Susan B. Anthony,” said Bartoshevich, referring to the suffragist.

Bartoshevich called herself a “devoted Democrat” who had never voted for a Republican for president.

“I’m on a lot of the (pro-Clinton) blogs, and so many people, male and female, feel the same way as I do,” said Bartoshevich, who was listed as a Racine County co-chair for the Clinton campaign and who traveled outside Wisconsin to volunteer for Clinton. “The Democrats jumped on this wagon of Barack Obama, and nobody really knows him.”

Hoping to tap into discontent among Clinton supporters, the McCain campaign is reaching out to them in a variety of ways, including a telephone “town hall” meeting today targeted to non-Republican voters.

McCain aide alerted press

Encouraged by her sister, who has served in Iraq, Bartoshevich signed up as a supporter with “Citizens for McCain,” an arm of the campaign targeting Democrats and independents. She said she got a call from the McCain campaign, which then provided her name to a reporter.

Polls suggest that Democrats are largely rallying around Obama after a divisive nominating fight, a phenomenon that has occurred in past intra-party fights, scholars say. But it remains to be seen whether Obama is hurt in the fall by any softness among Clinton’s core constituencies, especially white women and older and lower-income whites.

“History tells us that the vast majority of pledged (Clinton) delegates will in fact be quite enthusiastic about Obama by the time they get to Denver,” said Elaine Kamarck, a Harvard lecturer, a member of the Democratic National Committee and an expert on the nominating process.

Kamarck, who supported Clinton in the primaries, said it was too soon to tell whether discontent among Clinton supporters becomes a significant factor or “whether it’s just magnified because we have the Internet.”

Clinton has not formally released her pledged delegates, and it would not be unusual, given the modern history of the party, for most of them to cast their votes for Clinton at the convention. But that would depend on whether Clinton allows her name to be put forward for the nomination. Clinton hasn’t made that clear, but she has urged her delegates to help Obama defeat McCain.

Professor Byron Shafer, a University of Wisconsin-Madison scholar who is an expert on conventions, said it’s the fact that Bartoshevich is a convention delegate, subject to the partisan tendencies and pressures common to party activists, that makes her public support for McCain so unusual.

“The competitive partisan dynamic is usually strong enough that even the people not willing to line up at the convention on record for the nominee are still unlikely to be willing to line up publicly for the other party’s nominee,” Shafer said. “It’s a pretty far-out move.”

Steven Walters of the Journal Sentinel staff contributed to this report from Stevens Point.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?i...mp;format=print

[BZ770 2]

This is kind of what Zell Miller did for Bush in the last election. If Hillary had gotten the VP bid then you might not have this desertion. But this may be the first of many to jump the ship. Either way these are some potholes for the Democratic Party.

[WinCrimson 61]

She's free to do what she wishes, but it's a little puzzling to me she could desert the entire party due to a candidate who differs very slightly from the one she originally supported.

There's not much you can attribute it to, except...

As far as potholes for the party, a recent poll showed that 63% of Dems were enthusiastic about voting compared to only 37% of Republicans.

[tiger88 934]

Hmmm, interesting. Seems like she recognizes an empty suit when she sees it.

[RunInRed 16,492]

1 Democrat...huge trend. I'm sure I could find several Obamacans. As for Wisconsin:

In the inaugural UW-Madison Department of Political Science/WisPolitics.com survey taken immediately after Hillary Clinton suspended her campaign, Barack Obama leads John McCain by a 13-percentage point margin in the Badger state.

The survey of 506 randomly selected probable voters was conducted by phone from June 8-10 and was directed by UW-Madison political scientists Charles Franklin and Ken Goldstein. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.

Fifty percent of respondents said that if the election were held today they would vote for Obama, to 37 percent for McCain. Ten percent were undecided, and 3 percent refused to answer.

Consistent with evidence from other national surveys, the study paints a picture of a hostile political environment in the swing state of Wisconsin for Republicans in 2008.

Eight in 10 Wisconsin voters think the country is going in the wrong direction; President George W. Bush has a favorability rating of only 30 percent; 66 percent believe that the war in Iraq was not worth fighting; and the top two issue concerns are the economy and getting U.S. soldiers out of Iraq.

Wisconsin was a key battleground in the presidential contests of 2000 and 2004 and saw extraordinarily tight contests in both years. Al Gore beat Bush by 5,708 votes (0.2 percent) in 2000, and John Kerry defeated Bush by 11,384 votes in 2004 (0.38 percent).

"In both 2000 and 2004, party attachments in the state were virtually identical with equal numbers of voters identifying with the Democrats and the GOP," says Goldstein. "One of the striking results in this poll and consistent with other survey work I have done in the state, the Democrats now enjoy a major advantage in party identification."

In the study, 38 percent of probable voters identified with the Democrats and 24 percent with Republicans.

Obama has strong favorable ratings, with 64 percent of Wisconsin probable voters saying they have a favorable opinion and 32 percent having an unfavorable opinion.

McCain also has relatively strong favorables, at 53 percent to 44 percent. Obama is seen as the candidate to bring about change (70 percent to McCain's 42 percent) while McCain is seen as the experienced candidate (84 percent to Obama's 43 percent). Still, as the evidence shows, McCain faces a stiff headwind in Wisconsin.

Party polarization is a striking feature of Wisconsin opinion at this time, with 87 percent of Democrats and 89 percent of Republicans saying they would vote for their party's nominee if the election were held today.

"For all the talk about a new politics, the electorate is sharply split," says Franklin. Among independents, Obama holds a nine-point lead, 46 percent to 37 percent for McCain with 17 percent undecided.

Despite widespread speculation about lingering divisions within both parties, there is little evidence of it in the poll.

Democrats with favorable views of Clinton were as favorable toward Obama and as likely to vote for him, as were those less supportive of Clinton. And 55 percent of those surveyed said Obama choosing Clinton as a running mate would "have no effect on (the) likelihood of voting for Barack Obama." Among undecided voters, the results were also a wash with equal proportions of undecided voters saying a Clinton pick for vice president would help, hurt or make no difference.

On the Republican side, there was no evidence of a split in support for McCain among the more conservative Republican voters, despite criticism from some conservative commentators.

"The party bases have come together despite sometimes divisive primaries," concludes Franklin.

This is the first in a series of at least three UW-Madison Department of Political Science/WisPolitics.com polls this general election season.

"WisPolitics.com is a believer in emphasizing good polling, and we're confident professors Goldstein and Franklin will provide top-notch survey work to help us better understand the dynamics of this historic election,'' says Jeff Mayers, president of WisPolitics.com.

http://www.news.wisc.edu/15313

[TexasTiger 13,029]

Hmmm, interesting. Seems like she recognizes an empty suit when she sees it.

Sounds like a bitter, irrational, hysterical person to me. No wonder she's voting Republican.

You know, I liked McCain 1.0. But the more I learn about him, he's not only a desperate, unprincipled person with little guiding compass, he really doesn't seem to know that much about anything. He doesn't speak particularly intelligently about any of the major issues facing the next President, and I think that once folks really start to focus in the fall, that will become increasingly obvious to most Americans.

[LegalEagle 22]

Stupid is as stupid does.

[AURaptor 1,126]

This proves that Americans are seeing through the false image of Obama and are turning toward the real thing, John War Hero McCAIN !!

[autiger4life 3]

This proves that Americans are seeing through the false image of Obama and are turning toward the real thing, John War Hero McCAIN !!

Wait I'm sorry, one democrat not liking Obama means that America is seeing through him? I am pretty sure there are Republicans who don't like McCain either. Do they just not count?

You truly continue to amaze me with you stupid statements. I mean, had you said, "Finally a democrat with some sense." or "A democrat who sees the light." I can understand that. But to say that this provesthat Americans are seeing anything is ridiculous.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

This proves that Americans are seeing through the false image of Obama and are turning toward the real thing, John War Hero McCAIN !!

Wait I'm sorry, one democrat not liking Obama means that America is seeing through him? I am pretty sure there are Republicans who don't like McCain either. Do they just not count?

You truly continue to amaze me with you stupid statements. I mean, had you said, "Finally a democrat with some sense." or "A democrat who sees the light." I can understand that. But to say that this provesthat Americans are seeing anything is ridiculous.

It's Raptor. You expect him to make sense?

[AURaptor 1,126]

This proves that Americans are seeing through the false image of Obama and are turning toward the real thing, John War Hero McCAIN !!

Wait I'm sorry, one democrat not liking Obama means that America is seeing through him? I am pretty sure there are Republicans who don't like McCain either. Do they just not count?

You truly continue to amaze me with you stupid statements. I mean, had you said, "Finally a democrat with some sense." or "A democrat who sees the light." I can understand that. But to say that this provesthat Americans are seeing anything is ridiculous.

Chill mate. It's the weekend. Have a beer.

[tiger88 934]

Hmmm, interesting. Seems like she recognizes an empty suit when she sees it.

Sounds like a bitter, irrational, hysterical person to me. No wonder she's voting Republican.

You know, I liked McCain 1.0. But the more I learn about him, he's not only a desperate, unprincipled person with little guiding compass, he really doesn't seem to know that much about anything. He doesn't speak particularly intelligently about any of the major issues facing the next President, and I think that once folks really start to focus in the fall, that will become increasingly obvious to most Americans.

If he's so ignorant and harmless why does O'bama fear the town hall debates? Everytime I hear a liberal bash McCain, I remember they are supporting O'bama and just chuckle.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

Hmmm, interesting. Seems like she recognizes an empty suit when she sees it.

Sounds like a bitter, irrational, hysterical person to me. No wonder she's voting Republican.

You know, I liked McCain 1.0. But the more I learn about him, he's not only a desperate, unprincipled person with little guiding compass, he really doesn't seem to know that much about anything. He doesn't speak particularly intelligently about any of the major issues facing the next President, and I think that once folks really start to focus in the fall, that will become increasingly obvious to most Americans.

If he's so ignorant and harmless why does O'bama fear the town hall debates? Everytime I hear a liberal bash McCain, I remember they are supporting O'bama and just chuckle.

I don't think he "fears" them at all. He's agreed to 5 face-to-face meetings which is the most in history. But he knows McCain is just looking for free media. Why give away your advantage?

Ron Paul would have loved 10 town hall debates with McCain. Would McCain have given Paul that spotlight?

[tiger88 934]

Hmmm, interesting. Seems like she recognizes an empty suit when she sees it.

Sounds like a bitter, irrational, hysterical person to me. No wonder she's voting Republican.

You know, I liked McCain 1.0. But the more I learn about him, he's not only a desperate, unprincipled person with little guiding compass, he really doesn't seem to know that much about anything. He doesn't speak particularly intelligently about any of the major issues facing the next President, and I think that once folks really start to focus in the fall, that will become increasingly obvious to most Americans.

If he's so ignorant and harmless why does O'bama fear the town hall debates? Everytime I hear a liberal bash McCain, I remember they are supporting O'bama and just chuckle.

I don't think he "fears" them at all. He's agreed to 5 face-to-face meetings which is the most in history. But he knows McCain is just looking for free media. Why give away your advantage?

Er, ok mr walking contradiction. He's afraid that McCain will get free exposure and he will lose his money advantage. Obviously, he also fears that McCain will outshine him here with this free exposure or he'd be more open to it. I mean, it's pretty much accepted that Hilldog hung with him in the debates. I do believe McCain will do better. No written speeches, teleprompters, and time to practice exactly what you're going to say. Isn't able to work his "charm"/BS as well in such settings.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

Hmmm, interesting. Seems like she recognizes an empty suit when she sees it.

Sounds like a bitter, irrational, hysterical person to me. No wonder she's voting Republican.

You know, I liked McCain 1.0. But the more I learn about him, he's not only a desperate, unprincipled person with little guiding compass, he really doesn't seem to know that much about anything. He doesn't speak particularly intelligently about any of the major issues facing the next President, and I think that once folks really start to focus in the fall, that will become increasingly obvious to most Americans.

If he's so ignorant and harmless why does O'bama fear the town hall debates? Everytime I hear a liberal bash McCain, I remember they are supporting O'bama and just chuckle.

I don't think he "fears" them at all. He's agreed to 5 face-to-face meetings which is the most in history. But he knows McCain is just looking for free media. Why give away your advantage?

Er, ok mr walking contradiction. He's afraid that McCain will get free exposure and he will lose his money advantage. Obviously, he also fears that McCain will outshine him here with this free exposure or he'd be more open to it. I mean, it's pretty much accepted that Hilldog hung with him in the debates. I do believe McCain will do better. No written speeches, teleprompters, and time to practice exactly what you're going to say. Isn't able to work his "charm"/BS as well in such settings.

He's hardly dodging McCain by offering 5 face-to-face meetings. You don't let your opponent set your schedule. Especially when you're in the lead.

[tiger88 934]

In the lead is questionable to say the least when many polls have the race very close and the margin of error covers the difference.

Those polls sure are always accurate aren't they?

Like I said, he's at his best when he can rehearse and read the prompter and snow over the gullible who are easily influenced with meaningless aesthetics.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

In the lead is questionable to say the least when many polls have the race very close and the margin of error covers the difference.

Those polls sure are always accurate aren't they?

Like I said, he's at his best when he can rehearse and read the prompter and snow over the gullible who are easily influenced with meaningless aesthetics.

And McCain is at his best 8 years ago.

[tiger88 934]

In the lead is questionable to say the least when many polls have the race very close and the margin of error covers the difference.

Those polls sure are always accurate aren't they?

Like I said, he's at his best when he can rehearse and read the prompter and snow over the gullible who are easily influenced with meaningless aesthetics.

And McCain is at his best 8 years ago.

O'bama would still herniate himself trying to lift the mans jock strap today. 8 Years ago he would have imploded trying such a feat.

O'bama= empty suit.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

In the lead is questionable to say the least when many polls have the race very close and the margin of error covers the difference.

Those polls sure are always accurate aren't they?

Like I said, he's at his best when he can rehearse and read the prompter and snow over the gullible who are easily influenced with meaningless aesthetics.

And McCain is at his best 8 years ago.

O'bama would still herniate himself trying to lift the mans jock strap today. 8 Years ago he would have imploded trying such a feat.

O'bama= empty suit.

Tiger 88= Johnny One Note

[tiger88 934]

In the lead is questionable to say the least when many polls have the race very close and the margin of error covers the difference.

Those polls sure are always accurate aren't they?

Like I said, he's at his best when he can rehearse and read the prompter and snow over the gullible who are easily influenced with meaningless aesthetics.

And McCain is at his best 8 years ago.

O'bama would still herniate himself trying to lift the mans jock strap today. 8 Years ago he would have imploded trying such a feat.

O'bama= empty suit.

Tiger 88= Johnny One Note

When the note is true, why say anything else?

TexasTiger= gullible messiahphile.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

In the lead is questionable to say the least when many polls have the race very close and the margin of error covers the difference.

Those polls sure are always accurate aren't they?

Like I said, he's at his best when he can rehearse and read the prompter and snow over the gullible who are easily influenced with meaningless aesthetics.

And McCain is at his best 8 years ago.

O'bama would still herniate himself trying to lift the mans jock strap today. 8 Years ago he would have imploded trying such a feat.

O'bama= empty suit.

Tiger 88= Johnny One Note

When the note is true, why say anything else?

TexasTiger= gullible messiahphile.

I do love Jesus, and base on previous posts of yours, I understand you think that makes me gullible.

[autiger4life 3]

Er, ok mr walking contradiction. He's afraid that McCain will get free exposure and he will lose his money advantage. Obviously, he also fears that McCain will outshine him here with this free exposure or he'd be more open to it. I mean, it's pretty much accepted that Hilldog hung with him in the debates. I do believe McCain will do better. No written speeches, teleprompters, and time to practice exactly what you're going to say. Isn't able to work his "charm"/BS as well in such settings.

I understand what you are saying, I agree with the logic. The thing about it is, when it comes down to it Obama and McCain's job is to win. If they don't win, they can't have the change that they see for the country. Obama is getting a lot of free media which is benefiting him. If you are trying to win you wouldn't give away your advantage. That would be stupid.

That is like telling the other football team they have 12 players on the field because you aren't scared of them. You take all the advantages you can.

[tiger88 934]

In the lead is questionable to say the least when many polls have the race very close and the margin of error covers the difference.

Those polls sure are always accurate aren't they?

Like I said, he's at his best when he can rehearse and read the prompter and snow over the gullible who are easily influenced with meaningless aesthetics.

And McCain is at his best 8 years ago.

O'bama would still herniate himself trying to lift the mans jock strap today. 8 Years ago he would have imploded trying such a feat.

O'bama= empty suit.

Tiger 88= Johnny One Note

When the note is true, why say anything else?

TexasTiger= gullible messiahphile.

I do love Jesus, and base on previous posts of yours, I understand you think that makes me gullible.

We both know that isn't the "messiah" i was referring to, and if you are actually claiming that I would ridicule anyone for loving Jesus you are just being silly and need to re-read my posts.

Typical TT. Twisting words in a way he knows they weren't meant. The depths that liberals must stoop to attempt to stay in a debate.

[tiger88 934]

Er, ok mr walking contradiction. He's afraid that McCain will get free exposure and he will lose his money advantage. Obviously, he also fears that McCain will outshine him here with this free exposure or he'd be more open to it. I mean, it's pretty much accepted that Hilldog hung with him in the debates. I do believe McCain will do better. No written speeches, teleprompters, and time to practice exactly what you're going to say. Isn't able to work his "charm"/BS as well in such settings.

I understand what you are saying, I agree with the logic. The thing about it is, when it comes down to it Obama and McCain's job is to win. If they don't win, they can't have the change that they see for the country. Obama is getting a lot of free media which is benefiting him. If you are trying to win you wouldn't give away your advantage. That would be stupid.

That is like telling the other football team they have 12 players on the field because you aren't scared of them. You take all the advantages you can.

No, I see the point. My point is that the man that O'bama paints himself to be would have a town hall meeting with anyone at anytime. The truth of the matter is more what we see happening. If McCain passes him in the polls, he will be begging for more meetings. He paints himself as change when he is nothing significantly different from any other politician, but even worse. He has practically no experience. Another reason I'm sure he fears extra town hall meetings. The less exposure he and McCain have side by side the better for O'bama.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

In the lead is questionable to say the least when many polls have the race very close and the margin of error covers the difference.

Those polls sure are always accurate aren't they?

Like I said, he's at his best when he can rehearse and read the prompter and snow over the gullible who are easily influenced with meaningless aesthetics.

And McCain is at his best 8 years ago.

O'bama would still herniate himself trying to lift the mans jock strap today. 8 Years ago he would have imploded trying such a feat.

O'bama= empty suit.

Tiger 88= Johnny One Note

When the note is true, why say anything else?

TexasTiger= gullible messiahphile.

I do love Jesus, and base on previous posts of yours, I understand you think that makes me gullible.

We both know that isn't the "messiah" i was referring to, and if you are actually claiming that I would ridicule anyone for loving Jesus you are just being silly and need to re-read my posts.

Typical TT. Twisting words in a way he knows they weren't meant. The depths that liberals must stoop to attempt to stay in a debate.

Typical Tiger 88. Angry guy with no sense of humor.