Affirmation model as gay conversion therapy

[TexasTiger 12,835]

Interesting take— thoughts?

 

[Cardin Drake 1,825]

Thanks, this is a debate the gay community needs to take the lead on.  Conflating attraction for the same sex with transgenderism at a very young age should be discussed openly and rationally.  I'm not sure that is possible, however.  It's horrifying that a 12 year old can have one or two sessions with a psychologist and be diagnosed with gender dysphoria and be treated with puberty blocking drugs. 

[homersapien 11,367]

1 hour ago, Cardin Drake said:

Thanks, this is a debate the gay community needs to take the lead on.  Conflating attraction for the same sex with transgenderism at a very young age should be discussed openly and rationally.  I'm not sure that is possible, however.  It's horrifying that a 12 year old can have one or two sessions with a psychologist and be diagnosed with gender dysphoria and be treated with puberty blocking drugs. 

Any sort of medical/psychological malpractice is horrifying.

But I agree that in any case with a young child,  a psychiatrist assume that - whatever the issue - it's subject to transition as the child matures.  

It's a dilemma.  How much harm is done providing puberty blocking drugs to those who wind up changing their minds about gender dysphoria versus not providing puberty blocking drugs to those with lasting gender dysphoria? 

 

[TexasTiger 12,835]

29 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Any sort of medical/psychological malpractice is horrifying.

But I agree that in any case with a young child,  a psychiatrist assume that - whatever the issue - it's subject to transition as the child matures.  

It's a dilemma.  How much harm is done providing puberty blocking drugs to those who wind up changing their minds about gender dysphoria versus not providing puberty blocking drugs to those with lasting gender dysphoria? 

 

I’m not sure it’s that close a call. Western European countries are increasingly ending the practice calling it medical experimentation on children that, despite what advocates say, it does have negative consequences and has not been determined to be safe— the best evidence is to the contrary.
 

Any adult can transition if they choose. A natal female transitioning can add muscle, grow facial hair and lower their voice at any point. Until fairly recently, most natal males transitioning did so as adults. There’s still many risks of lifelong hormone treatments, but at least adults are making those decisions. If they are doing so without proper medical & psychological guidance (and that’s much harder to come by than hormones), they may still ultimately regret it, but at least let folks get through adolescence, hopefully with parents who support them regardless of the course they ultimately choose. Increasingly we’ve locked into archaic stereotypesof how boys are supposed to act and how girls are supposed to act— that’s not remotely progressive.

[homersapien 11,367]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

I’m not sure it’s that close a call. Western European countries are increasingly ending the practice calling it medical experimentation on children that, despite what advocates say, it does have negative consequences and has not been determined to be safe— the best evidence is to the contrary.
 

Any adult can transition if they choose. A natal female transitioning can add muscle, grow facial hair and lower their voice at any point. Until fairly recently, most natal males transitioning did so as adults. There’s still many risks of lifelong hormone treatments, but at least adults are making those decisions. If they are doing so without proper medical & psychological guidance (and that’s much harder to come by than hormones), they may still ultimately regret it, but at least let folks get through adolescence, hopefully with parents who support them regardless of the course they ultimately choose. Increasingly we’ve locked into archaic stereotypesof how boys are supposed to act and how girls are supposed to act— that’s not remotely progressive.

You may be right.  I haven't done any research on it. I wasn't even aware there were "puberty blocking drugs", but even the name would suggest they wouldn't be advisable to administer to a child who, presumably, was pre-puberty. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 12,835]

13 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You may be right.  I haven't done any research on it. I wasn't even aware there were "puberty blocking drugs", but even the name would suggest they wouldn't be advisable to administer to a child who, presumably, was pre puberty. 

They are helpful to delay, not stop, early onset puberty in girls. But Lupron, for example is used for a range of things:

Leuprorelin, also known as leuprolide, is a manufactured version of a hormoneused to treat prostate cancer, breast cancer, endometriosis, uterine fibroids, and early puberty, to perform chemical castration of violent sex offenders, or as part of transgender hormone therapy.^[7][8] It is given by injection into a muscle or under the skin.^[7]

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

19 hours ago, homersapien said:

You may be right.  I haven't done any research on it. I wasn't even aware there were "puberty blocking drugs", but even the name would suggest they wouldn't be advisable to administer to a child who, presumably, was pre-puberty. 

Well, this proves you don’t argue in earnest.  You are open to how the trans movement may not be best for children when one of your fellow libs brings it up, but can’t be bothered when you believe it is a MAGA conspiracy.

I hope you will do some research on this subject, it has infiltrated the school system so much so now 30 to 40% of children identifies as something other gender than just male and female.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

Maybe this is the way to teach kids complicated numbers.  Common core laughable, times tables old school, math racist, gender fractionism could be the ticket. LOL.

[TexasTiger 12,835]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Well, this proves you don’t argue in earnest.  You are open to how the trans movement may not be best for children when one of your fellow libs brings it up, but can’t be bothered when you believe it is a MAGA conspiracy.

I hope you will do some research on this subject, it has infiltrated the school system so much so now 30 to 40% of children identifies as something other gender than just male and female.

How do Republicans typically frame this issue? Many are now also salivating at the prospect of outlawing gay marriage. There’s a compassionate approach to these issues which is neither pro-medicalization of children nor transphobic. For most, not all, Republicans, raising it is done as a wedge issue. 

[homersapien 11,367]

4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Well, this proves you don’t argue in earnest.  You are open to how the trans movement may not be best for children when one of your fellow libs brings it up, but can’t be bothered when you believe it is a MAGA conspiracy.

I hope you will do some research on this subject, it has infiltrated the school system so much so now 30 to 40% of children identifies as something other gender than just male and female.

That is hysterical BS. 

And I am totally open as to how transexualism is not "best" for (all) children in general. Of course it's not. 

And TT was not talking about a "trans movement", he was talking about gender dysphoria and how best to treat it (or not).  I suspect it affects only a very small percentage of individuals. And - as was alluded to - it's probably being confused with common homosexuality in many of those cases. I certainly think treatment with puberty blockers is problematic. 

I have only argued against the hysterical idea that "trans sexualism" (gender dysphoria) represents some sort of new, dire threat to children because evil people are trying to indoctrinate children with it (the "trans movement" as you call it).  That sounds exactly like another Q-anon theory.

No way 30 or 40% of children actually identify as something other than male or female.  Plain old common sense should tell you that's insane. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by homersapien

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

How do Republicans typically frame this issue? Many are now also salivating at the prospect of outlawing gay marriage. There’s a compassionate approach to these issues which is neither pro-medicalization of children nor transphobic. For most, not all, Republicans, raising it is done as a wedge issue. 

To me gay marriage is *settled law* so to speak, the issue with children being taught gender identity in K-3 is a non starter.  K-3 children should be allowed to be children without some authoritative person teaching options that they would have never thought of on their own.  Puberty Blockers are designed to be taken just prior to puberty and I’m afraid kids really don’t know their own minds at that age and that they could be making decisions they will regret when they mature.

There is a reason young kids are choosing a *gender* other than male and female.  It has become a social contagion.  If these kids have gay or lesbian tendencies great, there is enough support for them now a days.  The Trans part can wait until they are mature enough to make that decision.

The wedge part comes in when the schools hide information from the parents as to what the kid has decided at an age that is inappropriate to make those type of decisions.  The parent’s job is to guide their child through life and not have the school they send them to solely help the child through something like that.

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

No way 30 or 40% of children actually identify as something other than male or female.  Plain old common sense should tell you that's insane

• Gen Z adults who identify as LGBTQ+ have increased from 10.5% in 2017 to 20.8% in 2021.
• Millennials identifying as LGBTQ+ increased from 5.8% in 2012 to 10.5% in 2021.
• http://c-hit.org/2022/02/21/poll-21-of-generation-z-self-identify-as-lgbtq/

Just the Gen Z and Millennials are 30% and the percentage has doubled with each generation.  What you you guess as to the generation that is in school now?

[TexasTiger 12,835]

4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

To me gay marriage is *settled law* so to speak, the issue with children being taught gender identity in K-3 is a non starter.  K-3 children should be allowed to be children without some authoritative person teaching options that they would have never thought of on their own.  Puberty Blockers are designed to be taken just prior to puberty and I’m afraid kids really don’t know their own minds at that age and that they could be making decisions they will regret when they mature.

There is a reason young kids are choosing a *gender* other than male and female.  It has become a social contagion.  If these kids have gay or lesbian tendencies great, there is enough support for them now a days.  The Trans part can wait until they are mature enough to make that decision.

The wedge part comes in when the schools hide information from the parents as to what the kid has decided at an age that is inappropriate to make those type of decisions.  The parent’s job is to guide their child through life and not have the school they send them to solely help the child through something like that.

Roe was more “settled.”

I think there are valid concerns with the role of schools in how sex and gender related issues are presented. A measured, reasoned approach that sought bipartisan support could have been better received. Instead, legislation was rushed and it’s been approached as a partisan wedge. DeSantis has used it to position himself as the Republican nominee up against the “libs.”

There are instances of teacher/administrator overreach, but the biggest factor driving the explosion in “gender identity” changes  is social media. 

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

11 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Roe was more “settled.”

I think there are valid concerns with the role of schools in how sex and gender related issues are presented. A measured, reasoned approach that sought bipartisan support could have been better received. Instead, legislation was rushed and it’s been approached as a partisan wedge. DeSantis has used it to position himself as the Republican nominee up against the “libs.”

There are instances of teacher/administrator overreach, but the biggest factor driving the explosion in “gender identity” changes  is social media. 

I agree with most of this except legislation wasn’t rushed it was decreed by EO on his first day.  

Kids love to have their own identity and not be like someone else and 50+ genders has given them the opportunity.  A parent can only hope the kid navigate the waters as to be a productive person when they mature.  They have to realize its not all about themselves at some point.

[homersapien 11,367]

17 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

• Gen Z adults who identify as LGBTQ+ have increased from 10.5% in 2017 to 20.8% in 2021.
• Millennials identifying as LGBTQ+ increased from 5.8% in 2012 to 10.5% in 2021.
• http://c-hit.org/2022/02/21/poll-21-of-generation-z-self-identify-as-lgbtq/

Just the Gen Z and Millennials are 30% and the percentage has doubled with each generation.  What you you guess as to the generation that is in school now?

Get back to me in 5 years and let's see how real this was.

[savorytiger 182]

17 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

• Gen Z adults who identify as LGBTQ+ have increased from 10.5% in 2017 to 20.8% in 2021.
• Millennials identifying as LGBTQ+ increased from 5.8% in 2012 to 10.5% in 2021.
• http://c-hit.org/2022/02/21/poll-21-of-generation-z-self-identify-as-lgbtq/

Just the Gen Z and Millennials are 30% and the percentage has doubled with each generation.  What you you guess as to the generation that is in school now?

Either Homer didn't catch it (no idea how he didn't) or he didn't bother to deal with it, but...

1) You made a claim for people who "identifies as something other gender than just male and female". You then post a link for people identifying as LGBTQ. That's not the same group. If 'we're looking at children who experience gender dysphoria (which is a larger group than "not male or female" as you typed but we'll assume that's what you meant), the only data I've found shows about 1.4% of children ages 13-17 identify as transgender.

2) It looks like you added up percentages of two populations of people to claim what would be the true of the combination of the two groups to get your 30%. That's not how that math works. If 50% of group A likes apples, and 50% of group B likes apples, how many of those in group A and B like apples? It's not 100%...

3) Just because you have two points of data doesn't mean you can easily extrapolate where it goes afterwards. You really think it's going to keep doubling every 9 years or every generation? 

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

7 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

1) You made a claim for people who "identifies as something other gender than just male and female". You then post a link for people identifying as LGBTQ. That's not the same group. If 'we're looking at children who experience gender dysphoria (which is a larger group than "not male or female" as you typed but we'll assume that's what you meant), the only data I've found shows about 1.4% of children ages 13-17 identify as transgender.

The LGBTQ1+ is based on gender identity that identify as something other than (in their phraseology) cis male and cis female.  This is what is being taught in schools and all over social media.  This is where the poll comes from.  The gender dysphoria as your data shows is rising exponentially in the current 13-17 Year Olds.  There are 50+ genders that the LGBT movement identifies and this is where the doubling of % between each generation.

Will this continue?  I have no idea, but if we teach it K-3 in schools I can’t see it decreasing anytime soon.  Social media will contribute to this phenomenon and it appears to be a social contagion, not truly doubling of gay or children with gender dysphoria.  That is the true issue especially if after the  child changes his/her mind after maturing.

 

[savorytiger 182]

14 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

The LGBTQ1+ is based on gender identity that identify as something other than (in their phraseology) cis male and cis female.  This is what is being taught in schools and all over social media.  This is where the poll comes from.  The gender dysphoria as your data shows is rising exponentially in the current 13-17 Year Olds.  There are 50+ genders that the LGBT movement identifies and this is where the doubling of % between each generation.

Will this continue?  I have no idea, but if we teach it K-3 in schools I can’t see it decreasing anytime soon.  Social media will contribute to this phenomenon and it appears to be a social contagion, not truly doubling of gay or children with gender dysphoria.  That is the true issue especially if after the  child changes his/her mind after maturing.

 

It's not though. Gender and sexuality are differing axis. LGBTQ covers all cases where gender or sexuality differ from cis gendered straight, but just because someone is LGBTQ, it doesn't mean that they don't identify as their cis gender. It's kind of like the all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares issue. Maybe you didn't mean to, but you made a claim about squares and then posted data about rectangles. 

If you want a frank conversation (not sure why I'm doing this in the Smack Talk forum) I'm pretty surprised that 20% of Gen Z adults identify as LGBTQ. That seems out of sync with what my intuition suggests would be natural. The question is...does it matter? The rates of these things doubled a few times, but its growth will obviously stop at some point. Social pressures/fads fade over time and trends will go back to normal, and people are being trained to panic about an issue that's isn't going to matter in the long run. Also, outside of a religous argument, is there a reason to view it as a negative in the first place?

Edited July 18, 2022 by savorytiger

[Didba 5,256]

Puberty blocking drugs are reversible. just fyi.

[TexasTiger 12,835]

36 minutes ago, Didba said:

Puberty blocking drugs are reversible. just fyi.

Wrong.

[savorytiger 182]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

Wrong.

I didn't find any sources I'd call highly trusted with a brief google, but the only result stating that it is *not* reversible is a site referencing the UK NHS page that now basically says the physical effects should be reversible though the psychological effects are unknown.

[Didba 5,256]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

Wrong.

Source?

[AUDub 11,147]

4 hours ago, savorytiger said:

I didn't find any sources I'd call highly trusted with a brief google, but the only result stating that it is *not* reversible is a site referencing the UK NHS page that now basically says the physical effects should be reversible though the psychological effects are unknown.

They're generally understood to be safe and reversible. We have been using these drugs to delay precocious puberty for a while. 

There are no known certainties with regard to adverse effects, but there are open questions with regard to bone density and height. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by AUDub

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

4 hours ago, Didba said:

Source?

From the UK from June 30, 2020

Puberty Blockers

GONE is the claim that puberty blockers are considered to be fully reversible:

“The effects of treatment with GnRH analogues are considered to be fully reversible, so treatment can usually be stopped at any time after a discussion between you, your child and your MDT”.

NEW is the admission that long-term effects are unknown:

“Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

It’s also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children’s bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.”

This paints a very different picture. The Tavistock GIDS is saying that the effects of blockers are physically reversible yet the NHS is now saying that this is not known.

Unknown effects on the developing adolescent brain should be reason enough to question the use of puberty blockers for this age-group; the fact that this has not been flagged before is testament to the existence of the seemingly different rules that govern transgender healthcare.  Would parents say yes to puberty blockers if they knew that trials on sheep suggest that blockers impair brain development in significant areas, which is not reversed if blockers are discontinued? We know there is a window of development in puberty which, if missed, cannot be regained at a later stage.

We also know that nearly 100% of children on blockers progress to cross-sex hormones and we know nothing about the long-term neurological effects if a person never experiences the surge of sex hormones their body needs and expects in adolescence according to whether they are male or female.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/nhs-no-longer-puberty-blockers-reversible/

Of course there is this issue and I’m not sure if this is reversible:

One concern raised with increasing frequency in recent years involves the effect of early intervention with puberty blockers on genital tissue growth in adolescent trans girls, and the impact on their future options for vaginoplasty surgery. Because construction of the neovagina typically involves primarily using the penis and scrotum as a source of genital tissue, underdevelopment of these organs may leave little material available for this method of vaginoplasty, potentially necessitating alternative approaches to this surgery using other methods.

This is one workaround:

Trans girls who began puberty suppression at a young age often have insufficient penile skin for a classical vaginoplasty and need an adjusted surgical procedure using colon tissue.

https://genderanalysis.net/2018/12/use-of-puberty-blockers-in-transgender-girls-effects-on-genital-tissue-development-and-vaginoplasty-options/

 

[TexasTiger 12,835]

4 hours ago, Didba said:

Source?

Numerous. What’s yours?