Football Helmet Pads....

[RkyMtnTIger 0]

On the cover of auburn.247 there is an article that has a picture of players using helmets with pads. I have never seen this before and was interested in what they are and how they work.

[AuburnHardware 1]

I have been saying for years that if you don't want people to use helmets as weapons, don't make them so hard. That didn't look like enough padding to do much though.

[BigSammyK 171]

http://guardiancaps.com/

Been around for a few years I believe.

[NoALtiger 3,875]

Concussion prevention supposedly. Pretty good idea im thinking. Of course, the helmet companies hate it...

[cptau 169]

they have been using them in practice for sometime. sort of like going back to rugby style helmets, but with a real helmet under it. fiction on contact pulling the head around might be a concern, but they say it is not.

at the rate the rule changes are going we will only need these soon

[passthebiscuits 6,889]

We should go to bubble wrap around the cranium.

[AU_Tiger_88 417]

We should go to bubble wrap around the cranium.

small air bags might work

[Metalsinger418 88]

One of the ugliest things I have ever seen.

[AUEngineer2016 407]

One of the ugliest things I have ever seen.

I'm not sure that it was meant to be a fashion statement... I think in this case, function is a little bit more important than style...

[DyeCampAlum 335]

I'd be surprised if it has much effect on concussions. As I understand the research, the concussion is because of what happens inside the skull and the helmet material doesn't matter. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but that's what I've read.

[deacon488 0]

Been around a pretty good while. Mark Kelso w/ the Buffalo Bills back in the early 90's used to were a version of this.

[CTsaysWDE 3]

I'd be surprised if it has much effect on concussions. As I understand the research, the concussion is because of what happens inside the skull and the helmet material doesn't matter. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but that's what I've read.

I must respectfully disagree. You are correct that what is going on inside the skull is the cause of the concussion, but having the padding alters what is going on in there. The brain is sitting in fluid inside of our skulls, and when we get hit really hard, it can bounce off the inside of the skull, causing damage. This bouncing is caused by the rapid negative acceleration (deceleration) of the skull. The larger the acceleration, the more forceful the impact of the brain on the skull. Adding padding increases the time over which the skull goes from movement to rest, thus decreasing the rate of acceleration that occurred. So having a soft padding with give to it will reduce concussion risk.

On that same note, the actual hard material that the helmet is made out of does not have as much of an effect on the concussions. Either way, a hard material will force the skull to come to rest at about the same rate of speed, causing the same acceleration and brain movement within the skull. What a good hard material can do is absorb and disperse the force of the blow, reducing damage to the skull itself.

.... at least that's how I understand the science of it all.

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

I'd be surprised if it has much effect on concussions. As I understand the research, the concussion is because of what happens inside the skull and the helmet material doesn't matter. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but that's what I've read.

I must respectfully disagree. You are correct that what is going on inside the skull is the cause of the concussion, but having the padding alters what is going on in there. The brain is sitting in fluid inside of our skulls, and when we get hit really hard, it can bounce off the inside of the skull, causing damage. This bouncing is caused by the rapid negative acceleration (deceleration) of the skull. The larger the acceleration, the more forceful the impact of the brain on the skull. Adding padding increases the time over which the skull goes from movement to rest, thus decreasing the rate of acceleration that occurred. So having a soft padding with give to it will reduce concussion risk.

On that same note, the actual hard material that the helmet is made out of does not have as much of an effect on the concussions. Either way, a hard material will force the skull to come to rest at about the same rate of speed, causing the same acceleration and brain movement within the skull. What a good hard material can do is absorb and disperse the force of the blow, reducing damage to the skull itself.

.... at least that's how I understand the science of it all.

So,

the air-bag idea mentioned earlier (in jest, I suspect) might even make things worse?

If triggered by contact, bag expansion would turn the very sudden stop of the skull into a very sudden throw-it-into-reverse, much increasing the brain-sloshing within; have I got that right?

[AUEngineer2016 407]

I'd be surprised if it has much effect on concussions. As I understand the research, the concussion is because of what happens inside the skull and the helmet material doesn't matter. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but that's what I've read.

I must respectfully disagree. You are correct that what is going on inside the skull is the cause of the concussion, but having the padding alters what is going on in there. The brain is sitting in fluid inside of our skulls, and when we get hit really hard, it can bounce off the inside of the skull, causing damage. This bouncing is caused by the rapid negative acceleration (deceleration) of the skull. The larger the acceleration, the more forceful the impact of the brain on the skull. Adding padding increases the time over which the skull goes from movement to rest, thus decreasing the rate of acceleration that occurred. So having a soft padding with give to it will reduce concussion risk.

On that same note, the actual hard material that the helmet is made out of does not have as much of an effect on the concussions. Either way, a hard material will force the skull to come to rest at about the same rate of speed, causing the same acceleration and brain movement within the skull. What a good hard material can do is absorb and disperse the force of the blow, reducing damage to the skull itself.

.... at least that's how I understand the science of it all.

So,

the air-bag idea mentioned earlier (in jest, I suspect) might even make things worse?

If triggered by contact, bag expansion would turn the very sudden stop of the skull into a very sudden throw-it-into-reverse, much increasing the brain-sloshing within; have I got that right?

DISCLAIMER: I'm about to explain some technical stuff (Physics). Please don't get mad because I get technical, it's just how I know how to explain this concept.

Not exactly. In physics, there is something called an impulse which is calculated as the force times the change in time, also known as a change in momentum. The impulse, combined with momentum, is what causes the skull to come to a stop while the brain does not, allowing the brain to have a more severe impact against the skull and cause problems.

Imagine yourself in a car driving down the road, and you start to brake. If you slam on your brakes as hard as you can, you and your passengers will be flung against your seatbelts and the items in your car will appear to be thrown to the front of the car. In reality, they just continue at their previous velocities until they encounter an outside force (aka they hit something). If you slow down gradually over a longer period of time, you are still pressing against your seatbelt, but it is much less of a force.

Since slowing down gradually increases the time that the force is applied, and you are changing the same ammount of momentum, the applied force must decrease as the time increases. Airbags and cushions attempt to increase the time that you decelerate in an effort to decrease the force that you feel.

Source: I'm an engineering student, just took Physics. Also, Link.

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

DISCLAIMER: I'm about to explain some technical stuff (Physics). Please don't get mad because I get technical, it's just how I know how to explain this concept.

Not exactly. In physics, there is something called an impulse which is calculated as the force times the change in time, also known as a change in momentum. The impulse, combined with momentum, is what causes the skull to come to a stop while the brain does not, allowing the brain to have a more severe impact against the skull and cause problems.

Imagine yourself in a car driving down the road, and you start to brake. If you slam on your brakes as hard as you can, you and your passengers will be flung against your seatbelts and the items in your car will appear to be thrown to the front of the car. In reality, they just continue at their previous velocities until they encounter an outside force (aka they hit something). If you slow down gradually over a longer period of time, you are still pressing against your seatbelt, but it is much less of a force.

Since slowing down gradually increases the time that the force is applied, and you are changing the same ammount of momentum, the applied force must decrease as the time increases. Airbags and cushions attempt to increase the time that you decelerate in an effort to decrease the force that you feel.

Source: I'm an engineering student, just took Physics. Also, Link.

Thanx

Think I’ve got it

For the same Impulse (I = net change in momentum due to contact), padding increases the time-span of force application, thus reducing average applied force (F).

F= mass x acceleration, so reduced F implies less acceleration between skull and brain. Padding, inside and/or outside the helmet are good for the brain inside the helmet, but padding outside is certainly better for whatever’s outside the helmet (e.g., the other guy’s helmet, and the brain inside it).

Padding is good. More padding is better, until it makes athletes top-heavy or actually encourages head-butting.

Unless we can trigger an airbag before impact (such as by a sensor on a bumper, 6 ft away from the helmet), we actually increase I without reducing increasing the time of force application.

[alexava 6,974]

I'd be surprised if it has much effect on concussions. As I understand the research, the concussion is because of what happens inside the skull and the helmet material doesn't matter. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but that's what I've read.

I must respectfully disagree. You are correct that what is going on inside the skull is the cause of the concussion, but having the padding alters what is going on in there. The brain is sitting in fluid inside of our skulls, and when we get hit really hard, it can bounce off the inside of the skull, causing damage. This bouncing is caused by the rapid negative acceleration (deceleration) of the skull. The larger the acceleration, the more forceful the impact of the brain on the skull. Adding padding increases the time over which the skull goes from movement to rest, thus decreasing the rate of acceleration that occurred. So having a soft padding with give to it will reduce concussion risk.

On that same note, the actual hard material that the helmet is made out of does not have as much of an effect on the concussions. Either way, a hard material will force the skull to come to rest at about the same rate of speed, causing the same acceleration and brain movement within the skull. What a good hard material can do is absorb and disperse the force of the blow, reducing damage to the skull itself.

.... at least that's how I understand the science of it all.

^^^^^its the same principal as the walls in nascar. It slows you down a fraction before you stop.

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

I'd be surprised if it has much effect on concussions. As I understand the research, the concussion is because of what happens inside the skull and the helmet material doesn't matter. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but that's what I've read.

I must respectfully disagree. You are correct that what is going on inside the skull is the cause of the concussion, but having the padding alters what is going on in there. The brain is sitting in fluid inside of our skulls, and when we get hit really hard, it can bounce off the inside of the skull, causing damage. This bouncing is caused by the rapid negative acceleration (deceleration) of the skull. The larger the acceleration, the more forceful the impact of the brain on the skull. Adding padding increases the time over which the skull goes from movement to rest, thus decreasing the rate of acceleration that occurred. So having a soft padding with give to it will reduce concussion risk.

On that same note, the actual hard material that the helmet is made out of does not have as much of an effect on the concussions. Either way, a hard material will force the skull to come to rest at about the same rate of speed, causing the same acceleration and brain movement within the skull. What a good hard material can do is absorb and disperse the force of the blow, reducing damage to the skull itself.

.... at least that's how I understand the science of it all.

^^^^^its the same principal as the walls in nascar. It slows you down a fraction before you stop.

^^^ and we could include the warning strip in MLB, although (in that case) the outfielder is expected to slow himself down before he meets the wall.

[stoic-one 1,557]

DISCLAIMER: I'm about to explain some technical stuff (Physics). Please don't get mad because I get technical, it's just how I know how to explain this concept.

Not exactly. In physics, there is something called an impulse which is calculated as the force times the change in time, also known as a change in momentum. The impulse, combined with momentum, is what causes the skull to come to a stop while the brain does not, allowing the brain to have a more severe impact against the skull and cause problems.

Imagine yourself in a car driving down the road, and you start to brake. If you slam on your brakes as hard as you can, you and your passengers will be flung against your seatbelts and the items in your car will appear to be thrown to the front of the car. In reality, they just continue at their previous velocities until they encounter an outside force (aka they hit something). If you slow down gradually over a longer period of time, you are still pressing against your seatbelt, but it is much less of a force.

Since slowing down gradually increases the time that the force is applied, and you are changing the same ammount of momentum, the applied force must decrease as the time increases. Airbags and cushions attempt to increase the time that you decelerate in an effort to decrease the force that you feel.

Source: I'm an engineering student, just took Physics. Also, Link.

Thanx

Think I’ve got it

For the same Impulse (I = net change in momentum due to contact), padding increases the time-span of force application, thus reducing average applied force (F).

F= mass x acceleration, so reduced F implies less acceleration between skull and brain. Padding, inside and/or outside the helmet are good for the brain inside the helmet, but padding outside is certainly better for whatever’s outside the helmet (e.g., the other guy’s helmet, and the brain inside it).

Padding is good. More padding is better, until it makes athletes top-heavy or actually encourages head-butting.

Unless we can trigger an airbag before impact (such as by a sensor on a bumper, 6 ft away from the helmet), we actually increase I without reducing increasing the time of force application.

Dang, yous guys is all smarts, and stuff...

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

DISCLAIMER: I'm about to explain some technical stuff (Physics). Please don't get mad because I get technical, it's just how I know how to explain this concept.

Not exactly. In physics, there is something called an impulse which is calculated as the force times the change in time, also known as a change in momentum. The impulse, combined with momentum, is what causes the skull to come to a stop while the brain does not, allowing the brain to have a more severe impact against the skull and cause problems.

Imagine yourself in a car driving down the road, and you start to brake. If you slam on your brakes as hard as you can, you and your passengers will be flung against your seatbelts and the items in your car will appear to be thrown to the front of the car. In reality, they just continue at their previous velocities until they encounter an outside force (aka they hit something). If you slow down gradually over a longer period of time, you are still pressing against your seatbelt, but it is much less of a force.

Since slowing down gradually increases the time that the force is applied, and you are changing the same ammount of momentum, the applied force must decrease as the time increases. Airbags and cushions attempt to increase the time that you decelerate in an effort to decrease the force that you feel.

Source: I'm an engineering student, just took Physics. Also, Link.

Thanx

Think I’ve got it

For the same Impulse (I = net change in momentum due to contact), padding increases the time-span of force application, thus reducing average applied force (F).

F= mass x acceleration, so reduced F implies less acceleration between skull and brain. Padding, inside and/or outside the helmet are good for the brain inside the helmet, but padding outside is certainly better for whatever’s outside the helmet (e.g., the other guy’s helmet, and the brain inside it).

Padding is good. More padding is better, until it makes athletes top-heavy or actually encourages head-butting.

Unless we can trigger an airbag before impact (such as by a sensor on a bumper, 6 ft away from the helmet), we actually increase I without reducing increasing the time of force application.

Dang, yous guys is all smarts, and stuff...

I plead guilty [translation - legend in my own mind]

[cptau 169]

I'd be surprised if it has much effect on concussions. As I understand the research, the concussion is because of what happens inside the skull and the helmet material doesn't matter. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but that's what I've read.

I must respectfully disagree. You are correct that what is going on inside the skull is the cause of the concussion, but having the padding alters what is going on in there. The brain is sitting in fluid inside of our skulls, and when we get hit really hard, it can bounce off the inside of the skull, causing damage. This bouncing is caused by the rapid negative acceleration (deceleration) of the skull. The larger the acceleration, the more forceful the impact of the brain on the skull. Adding padding increases the time over which the skull goes from movement to rest, thus decreasing the rate of acceleration that occurred. So having a soft padding with give to it will reduce concussion risk.

On that same note, the actual hard material that the helmet is made out of does not have as much of an effect on the concussions. Either way, a hard material will force the skull to come to rest at about the same rate of speed, causing the same acceleration and brain movement within the skull. What a good hard material can do is absorb and disperse the force of the blow, reducing damage to the skull itself.

.... at least that's how I understand the science of it all.

^^^^^its the same principal as the walls in nascar. It slows you down a fraction before you stop.

^^^ and we could include the warning strip in MLB, although (in that case) the outfielder is expected to slow himself down before he meets the wall.

They do use padded walls in baseball and other sports to protect the players when they hit the stadium walls .....

Then the fans start slapping the padding to make noise.......

[AUEngineer2016 407]

I'd be surprised if it has much effect on concussions. As I understand the research, the concussion is because of what happens inside the skull and the helmet material doesn't matter. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but that's what I've read.

I must respectfully disagree. You are correct that what is going on inside the skull is the cause of the concussion, but having the padding alters what is going on in there. The brain is sitting in fluid inside of our skulls, and when we get hit really hard, it can bounce off the inside of the skull, causing damage. This bouncing is caused by the rapid negative acceleration (deceleration) of the skull. The larger the acceleration, the more forceful the impact of the brain on the skull. Adding padding increases the time over which the skull goes from movement to rest, thus decreasing the rate of acceleration that occurred. So having a soft padding with give to it will reduce concussion risk.

On that same note, the actual hard material that the helmet is made out of does not have as much of an effect on the concussions. Either way, a hard material will force the skull to come to rest at about the same rate of speed, causing the same acceleration and brain movement within the skull. What a good hard material can do is absorb and disperse the force of the blow, reducing damage to the skull itself.

.... at least that's how I understand the science of it all.

^^^^^its the same principal as the walls in nascar. It slows you down a fraction before you stop.

Exactly. A less rigid material increases the ammount of time that the force is applied over, meaning the object (car, head, etc) feels less force at any one point. The more you decrease the rigidity of the "buffer object", the more you increase the time of force application and therefore the more you decrease the applied force at any one time.

This principle is used in air bags, gymnastics mats, any kind of padding, packing peanuts/bagged air when shipping, shocks on a car, etc.

[cptau 169]

Exactly. A less rigid material increases the ammount of time that the force is applied over, meaning the object (car, head, etc) feels less force at any one point. The more you decrease the rigidity of the "buffer object", the more you increase the time of force application and therefore the more you decrease the applied force at any one time.

This principle is used in air bags, gymnastics mats, any kind of padding, packing peanuts/bagged air when shipping, shocks on a car, etc.

NASA uses it too. Called air braking or skip reentry using the thin upper atmosphere to lower the speed of an object coming into a planet. They used it the Apollo missions to slow down the return from the moon.

Otherwise the crew would get killed by high G forces or burned up.

[Dixie1860 27]

You guys with all your fancy "bukk lurnin'"!! What are these kunkushyuns I hear tell of?

If you ain't bloody and dizzy afterwards you might as well be playin' soccer!!