FFRF goes after Auburn, Rev. Chette Williams

[autigeremt 6,629]

I shouldn't say this....but I CAN'T BELIEVE WE HAVE AUBURN PEOPLE DEFENDING FFRF!!!!!!!

Why? Because Chette and the FCA do so much good for the players, the community, and the state in the name of GOD?!?! WOW! In a time when so many young people are making bad decisions we have some who take a holier than thou mentality over a supposed church and state position.

This is not church and state. Just because there's a "connective" association doesn't meant it's a church and state issue. It has no bearing or sway involving legislation or the governments role in such matters. Period.

[Weegle777 78]

Would you guys rather have a Muslim leader teaching them jihad?

[homersapien 11,373]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too.

Once again EMT you are aligning yourself with the deliberate lies of DKW by ignoring what I actually wrote and inserting what you want to hear for the sake of argument.

I wrote: Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

I didn't claim it happened. I suggested that it could have. Trashing Franklin as a disgruntled ex-employee is the classical way of dealing with a whistle blower. It avoids the issue.

I was trying to keep the discussion on topic - that is where the substance of the discussion lies.

But it you want to simply deny all of this and claim it never happens, that's fine with me. Just don't set me up as your strawman by fabricating lies about what I posted.

I expect that of DKW. It's is MO. I thought better of you.

[homersapien 11,373]

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

Here. The only other source I saw was behind a paywall at the Montgomery Advertiser.

http://sports.yahoo....rn=ncaaf-168657

Franklin was also troubled by the constant talk about religion within the athletic department. From Tuberville to [athletic director Jay] Jacobs to most of the assistants, the talk of God and prayer never ended.

"That's all they do is pray -- and talk about praying and religion," Franklin said. "It's a constant thing with them, and it's just overwhelming at times. A lot of people use religion as a crutch, and I think that's the case there. Every word coming out of their mouths is something about religion, and most of it is just a joke."

This isn't exactly a statement of the coercive nature of religion on the AU team. It's a statement of someone who admittedly isn't all that religious being uncomfortable or annoyed with how much coaches and AD people talked about prayer and religion themselves. Nothing to do with the players or their activities.

And even sticking within the coaching staff and AD, he doesn't even make a claim that it was coercive or somehow affected his employment status there. In context, his statement comes of more as someone that feels these folks talked religion while not always living it out or being insincere.

Did he say anything beyond this?

Actually, I found more of the quote after the point where the one above ended:

"I don't want to come off as anti-religion or that I'm not a Christian, but the best people in the world — the ones who do truly great things — they just do good things for people. You don't know most of the time if they're Muslim or Christian or anything else, because they never talk about it. But it was constant with them, and it was uncomfortable sometimes.

When you talk about your religion so much, it comes off as fake or phony. That's the way I think of several of those people [at Auburn] as fake."

http://www.thewizofo...-at-auburn.html

This only leads me to believe even more that in full context, Franklin was not implying that the coaches or admin at Auburn were coercing kids with religion but that he simply found so much talk about one's religion to be fake or phony. It annoyed him and didn't fit his personality when it comes to matters of religion.

A lot of focus and discussion on religion by the authority figures in a given organization is inherently coercive to anyone in a subordinate roll in that organization.

I don't think so. If I worked with a bunch of Jewish people in NYC and they talked religious stuff a lot, that doesn't come off as coercive to me in and of itself. There has to be something a bit more overt or intentional to start tossing around coercion to me.

Well, we'll just disagree about that. But I think it's just common sense if you work for people who interject religious piety into the everyday workplace you will be naturally feel pressure to fit it or at least fear the consequences of not trying to do so.

That's just common social science or psychology.

[homersapien 11,373]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too.

Touche' It's very very predictable.

trash dozens of good coaches, players, admin staff, on the words of one guy that has real issues.

More lies. I have never "trashed" anyone.

I think JJ, Chette, Gus et al. are all honorable well meaning folks. I think they have the best interests of every player at heart. But like a lot of Christians, they might be a little too aggressive in pushing Christian redemption in an institutionalized way. If this discussion gets them thinking about it, that's a good thing.

It's almost gotten to the point where it is impossible to have a civilized discussion on this forum about anything. Too many here just cannot rise above the level of dichotomous thinking.

[homersapien 11,373]

It would be nice to read one thread on this forum without all the snark going back & forth from the usual suspects.

I think it was Tony Franklin who first mentioned the issue with the coercive nature of Christian influence on the AU team. Of course, he was embattled on all fronts while at AU so it's hard to distinguish from all the complaints that he had which was bothering him the most.

That said, I think the FFRF is off base on their unconstitutional claim because it focuses on the 1st Amendment's "establishment" clause, but conveniently ignores the "free expression thereof" clause. If a university's athletic team freely chooses to have a chaplain minister to their team, then isn't that their right? As long as no team members are forced to adopt the faith of the chaplain, then what's the problem? Freedom to partake or not in religious activities is the ultimate in freedom. I don't see an issue with FFRF attempts to educate/inform athletes of their civil rights -- if that is the true goal.

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

i don't remember reading it anywhere but i heard it live on paul finebaum. He accused auburn of using religion as a "crutch" . said all the meetings started with prayer and it made him uncomfortable because his faith was very private and personal to him.

If that is true, then FFRF has a valid point and Franklin should be their mouthpiece.

I agree. Starting a routine team meeting with a prayer would be way out of line.

i don't think it was team meetings, but staff or AD meetings.

Not quite as bad, but still wrong. I wonder if they asked about religious beliefs in the hiring interview?

it was not a problem until after he was fired. His salary from Troy tripled. He would have let Phil Roberson baptism him in a pile of rattlesnakes if it would have got him in the SEC.

But of course. He would have kept his mouth shut while still on the staff. That's the point.

[homersapien 11,373]

Would you guys rather have a Muslim leader teaching them jihad?

:-\ That's pathetic.

[Weegle777 78]

Why is it pathetic? That's what they do.

[homersapien 11,373]

When our institutions openly attack a man doing so much good; we are truly lost. We lament which young "lives matter" and we have a man working to make all these lives better; and most of these lives that he is trying to make better are young black lives; yet we have organizations who place their hate above the lives of these young men...and I am frankly shocked that anyone on here finds issue with this. As I have pointed out many times on here; the issue in the black community is lack of leadership....here you have a man providing that leadership; and you attack him and his program because your concerned about appearances. Shame on you. You're no better than Al Sharpton or any of the other race baiters and political hacks exploiting this situation. We need more programs like this...on every campus and in every neighborhood.

We already have plenty of programs like this in every neighborhood. They are called churches.

There is nothing wrong with helping or administering to young people. The issue on the table is whether or not a specific religious doctrine should be the exclusive vehicle for doing so, especially within the context of a football program or place of work.

[homersapien 11,373]

Semi related question here, I'm sure most of us played sports growing up, and I'm sure some of us were not Christians at the time.

I never felt pressured to be a christian due to prayer circles before or after practices/games. Nor did I ever feel pressured because there was a Christian pastor there usually. Did anyone else ever feel pressured by those attacks to change their entire belief system?

BTW, If I had anything negative to say about the experience it would be how woefully inadequate the pastor was in dealing with non-Christians who came to him. It would have been cool had they had multiple faith leaders to at least cover the 3 largest religions of the community, or one guy who was well versed in all three.

That sounds like a Military Chaplain...

That was what I was thinking actually. We had a very good military chaplain in Iraq, talked and prayed with people of many faiths before we went on mission. Someone like our chaplain could be a boon not just to Auburn but to many places around the country.

Personally, I think that's a good idea. Having a non-sectarian chaplain - or counselor - would be a better approach than one that is exclusively Christian.

[homersapien 11,373]

Why is it pathetic? That's what they do.

Seriously?

You think the issue here is what particular theology is being pushed?

[TitanTiger 20,482]

When our institutions openly attack a man doing so much good; we are truly lost. We lament which young "lives matter" and we have a man working to make all these lives better; and most of these lives that he is trying to make better are young black lives; yet we have organizations who place their hate above the lives of these young men...and I am frankly shocked that anyone on here finds issue with this. As I have pointed out many times on here; the issue in the black community is lack of leadership....here you have a man providing that leadership; and you attack him and his program because your concerned about appearances. Shame on you. You're no better than Al Sharpton or any of the other race baiters and political hacks exploiting this situation. We need more programs like this...on every campus and in every neighborhood.

We already have plenty of programs like this in every neighborhood. They are called churches.

There is nothing wrong with helping or administering to young people. The issue on the table is whether or not a specific religious doctrine should be the exclusive vehicle for doing so, especially within the context of a football program or place of work.

And some players have churches. Others may not feel as comfortable going to a pastor but would like to discuss life matters with someone like Chette who played football, who can relate to them and what they're dealing with in life. Or, you know what Auburn does provide in an official, paid capacity? Totally free counseling services to include mental health issues:

Student Counseling Services (SCS), a department in the Division of Student Affairs, is the primary counseling center for Auburn University's undergraduate and graduate student community. The mission of SCS is to provide comprehensive preventative and clinical mental health services to enhance the psychological well-being of individual students, as well as the broader campus culture. We are committed to supporting the academic, retention, and student development missions of Auburn University, so students can have a balanced university experience and take full advantage of the educational opportunities at the university.

http://www.auburn.edu/scs/

If they want to discuss more spiritual things, Chette can do that as well, but there's no evidence (or even an accusation out there) that it's being forced on anyone. So in essence, student athletes have even more options, not fewer. And none of the are forced. And the one where the guy has a religious affiliation isn't paid for by the school.

[homersapien 11,373]

When our institutions openly attack a man doing so much good; we are truly lost. We lament which young "lives matter" and we have a man working to make all these lives better; and most of these lives that he is trying to make better are young black lives; yet we have organizations who place their hate above the lives of these young men...and I am frankly shocked that anyone on here finds issue with this. As I have pointed out many times on here; the issue in the black community is lack of leadership....here you have a man providing that leadership; and you attack him and his program because your concerned about appearances. Shame on you. You're no better than Al Sharpton or any of the other race baiters and political hacks exploiting this situation. We need more programs like this...on every campus and in every neighborhood.

We already have plenty of programs like this in every neighborhood. They are called churches.

There is nothing wrong with helping or administering to young people. The issue on the table is whether or not a specific religious doctrine should be the exclusive vehicle for doing so, especially within the context of a football program or place of work.

And some players have churches. Others may not feel as comfortable going to a pastor but would like to discuss life matters with someone like Chette who played football, who can relate to them and what they're dealing with in life. Or, you know what Auburn does provide in an official, paid capacity? Totally free counseling services to include mental health issues:

Student Counseling Services (SCS), a department in the Division of Student Affairs, is the primary counseling center for Auburn University's undergraduate and graduate student community. The mission of SCS is to provide comprehensive preventative and clinical mental health services to enhance the psychological well-being of individual students, as well as the broader campus culture. We are committed to supporting the academic, retention, and student development missions of Auburn University, so students can have a balanced university experience and take full advantage of the educational opportunities at the university.

http://www.auburn.edu/scs/

If they want to discuss more spiritual things, Chette can do that as well, but there's no evidence (or even an accusation out there) that it's being forced on anyone. So in essence, student athletes have even more options, not fewer. And none of the are forced. And the one where the guy has a religious affiliation isn't paid for by the school.

Well, no one has suggested it was being "forced" on anyone. What I have suggested is that if Christianity has become pervasively integrated into the program it creates a coercive atmosphere.

I am starting to think it's not even possible for anyone but a non-Christian to understand this point.

I suppose the best analogy for Christians to consider is a case in which Islam - or even better, Wiccan - religious model was being used instead of Christian.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

Given the coach was fired and a major question involved was utilization of players and playing time by many. I will go with the players in this one.

That's some very selective remembering. The coach was fired because recruiting fell off, especially on the offensive side. We missed big evaluating QB recruits the last two years before he was let go. Then he made a disastrous and drastic change in offensive philosophy that didn't go well because he didn't grasp that Franklin needed assistants who believed in his system. We had limped to a mediocre 8-4 in 2007 and finished a 5-7 2008 season with a 36-0 pounding from Bama. Meanwhile, Saban came in across the state by his second year had made Alabama a recruiting machine, and had them undefeated and playing in the SEC title game.

Arguing over playing time (or insinuating it was somehow tied to Bible study attendance) is akin to straightening the chairs on the deck of the Titanic as it goes down. You're doing some serious reading into things to hold on to a conclusion by a handful of players.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as the saying goes. You can't just accept their suspicions at face value simply because it goes along with the argument you wish to make on this matter.

Guess it is a good thing that the sport I was referring to didn't involve QB's, that Franklin wasn't on that coaching staff, was fired years before 2007, had seasons longer than 12 games, and never faced Saban in any way or form on the field then.

I'm accused of doing serious reading into things and you are not even using the right sport?

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

But they don't want to hear that Titan, that messes up their agenda. Christian aholes! :laugh:/>

Ya, I don't remember many complaints (if there was any at all) when the move to remove was made though. Many a good Christian cheered,saluted, endorsed, and called for the downfall and unemployment of the individual.

But I appreciate you being all Christian like and automatically judging others cause their info doesn't meet your agenda.

And in the same breath you have done that which you have just accused me of. Hypocrisy much?

You're the one that jumped in and said I don't want to hear something and that I have an agenda. All I did was provide another example at Auburn University where players themselves stated that their level of faith and participation played a role in playing time.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Then it's even less convincing. Because virtually every other sport at Auburn in that time frame was sucking wind. And recruiting was terrible. And our closest rivals were experiencing more success than we were.

I'm sorry, but "some players said so" isn't enough to go around making accusations like that, much less believing them.

[DKW 86 7,424]

Then it's even less convincing. Because virtually every other sport at Auburn in that time frame was sucking wind. And recruiting was terrible. And our closest rivals were experiencing more success than we were.

I'm sorry, but "some players said so" isn't enough to go around making accusations like that, much less believing them.

What he said. I dont trust what one very disgruntled former coach said either.

You got any links for these players?

[autigeremt 6,629]

When our institutions openly attack a man doing so much good; we are truly lost. We lament which young "lives matter" and we have a man working to make all these lives better; and most of these lives that he is trying to make better are young black lives; yet we have organizations who place their hate above the lives of these young men...and I am frankly shocked that anyone on here finds issue with this. As I have pointed out many times on here; the issue in the black community is lack of leadership....here you have a man providing that leadership; and you attack him and his program because your concerned about appearances. Shame on you. You're no better than Al Sharpton or any of the other race baiters and political hacks exploiting this situation. We need more programs like this...on every campus and in every neighborhood.

We already have plenty of programs like this in every neighborhood. They are called churches.

There is nothing wrong with helping or administering to young people. The issue on the table is whether or not a specific religious doctrine should be the exclusive vehicle for doing so, especially within the context of a football program or place of work.

If it's good for the military and good for Congress it should be good for AU! Plain and simple. There's nothing wrong with the program....this is just another attack on religion.

[autigeremt 6,629]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too.

Once again EMT you are aligning yourself with the deliberate lies of DKW by ignoring what I actually wrote and inserting what you want to hear for the sake of argument.

I wrote: Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

I didn't claim it happened. I suggested that it could have. Trashing Franklin as a disgruntled ex-employee is the classical way of dealing with a whistle blower. It avoids the issue.

I was trying to keep the discussion on topic - that is where the substance of the discussion lies.

But it you want to simply deny all of this and claim it never happens, that's fine with me. Just don't set me up as your strawman by fabricating lies about what I posted.

I expect that of DKW. It's is MO. I thought better of you.

General Statement, homer....you do it all the time.

[autigeremt 6,629]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too.

Touche' It's very very predictable.

trash dozens of good coaches, players, admin staff, on the words of one guy that has real issues.

More lies. I have never "trashed" anyone.

I think JJ, Chette, Gus et al. are all honorable well meaning folks. I think they have the best interests of every player at heart. But like a lot of Christians, they might be a little too aggressive in pushing Christian redemption in an institutionalized way. If this discussion gets them thinking about it, that's a good thing.

It's almost gotten to the point where it is impossible to have a civilized discussion on this forum about anything. Too many here just cannot rise above the level of dichotomous thinking.

MIGHT.......that's all you got? MIGHT? That's the entire problem with people who do not believe....MIGHT as well mean IS.

[Weegle777 78]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well. :laugh:/>

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too. ;)/>

Touche' It's very very predictable.

trash dozens of good coaches, players, admin staff, on the words of one guy that has real issues.

More lies. I have never "trashed" anyone.

I think JJ, Chette, Gus et al. are all honorable well meaning folks. I think they have the best interests of every player at heart. But like a lot of Christians, they might be a little too aggressive in pushing Christian redemption in an institutionalized way. If this discussion gets them thinking about it, that's a good thing.

It's almost gotten to the point where it is impossible to have a civilized discussion on this forum about anything. Too many here just cannot rise above the level of dichotomous thinking.

MIGHT.......that's all you got? MIGHT? That's the entire problem with people who do not believe....MIGHT as well mean IS.

That's because they want to take everyone's decision making responsibility away. No one can decide for themselves, others must decide for them.

[japantiger 4,051]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well. :laugh:/>

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too. ;)/>

Touche' It's very very predictable.

trash dozens of good coaches, players, admin staff, on the words of one guy that has real issues.

More lies. I have never "trashed" anyone.

I think JJ, Chette, Gus et al. are all honorable well meaning folks. I think they have the best interests of every player at heart. But like a lot of Christians, they might be a little too aggressive in pushing Christian redemption in an institutionalized way. If this discussion gets them thinking about it, that's a good thing.

It's almost gotten to the point where it is impossible to have a civilized discussion on this forum about anything. Too many here just cannot rise above the level of dichotomous thinking.

MIGHT.......that's all you got? MIGHT? That's the entire problem with people who do not believe....MIGHT as well mean IS.

That's because they want to take everyone's decision making responsibility away. No one can decide for themselves, others must decide for them.

of course,....Big Brother knows best.

[homersapien 11,373]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too.

Touche' It's very very predictable.

trash dozens of good coaches, players, admin staff, on the words of one guy that has real issues.

More lies. I have never "trashed" anyone.

I think JJ, Chette, Gus et al. are all honorable well meaning folks. I think they have the best interests of every player at heart. But like a lot of Christians, they might be a little too aggressive in pushing Christian redemption in an institutionalized way. If this discussion gets them thinking about it, that's a good thing.

It's almost gotten to the point where it is impossible to have a civilized discussion on this forum about anything. Too many here just cannot rise above the level of dichotomous thinking.

MIGHT.......that's all you got? MIGHT? That's the entire problem with people who do not believe....MIGHT as well mean IS.

All I've got for what?

And what do you mean by "problem"? Do you think non-believers are a problem?

[homersapien 11,373]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well. :laugh:/>

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too. ;)/>

Touche' It's very very predictable.

trash dozens of good coaches, players, admin staff, on the words of one guy that has real issues.

More lies. I have never "trashed" anyone.

I think JJ, Chette, Gus et al. are all honorable well meaning folks. I think they have the best interests of every player at heart. But like a lot of Christians, they might be a little too aggressive in pushing Christian redemption in an institutionalized way. If this discussion gets them thinking about it, that's a good thing.

It's almost gotten to the point where it is impossible to have a civilized discussion on this forum about anything. Too many here just cannot rise above the level of dichotomous thinking.

MIGHT.......that's all you got? MIGHT? That's the entire problem with people who do not believe....MIGHT as well mean IS.

That's because they want to take everyone's decision making responsibility away. No one can decide for themselves, others must decide for them.

I don't understand your post.

First, who is "they"? And what do you mean by " take everyone's decision making responsibility away"?

[autigeremt 6,629]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well. :laugh:/>

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too. ;)/>

Touche' It's very very predictable.

trash dozens of good coaches, players, admin staff, on the words of one guy that has real issues.

More lies. I have never "trashed" anyone.

I think JJ, Chette, Gus et al. are all honorable well meaning folks. I think they have the best interests of every player at heart. But like a lot of Christians, they might be a little too aggressive in pushing Christian redemption in an institutionalized way. If this discussion gets them thinking about it, that's a good thing.

It's almost gotten to the point where it is impossible to have a civilized discussion on this forum about anything. Too many here just cannot rise above the level of dichotomous thinking.

MIGHT.......that's all you got? MIGHT? That's the entire problem with people who do not believe....MIGHT as well mean IS.

All I've got for what? :dunno:/>

And what do you mean by "problem"? Do you think non-believers are a problem?

And you think I need help.......lol. Never mind.