FFRF goes after Auburn, Rev. Chette Williams

[finxster 4]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

[AURaptor 1,126]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

And that's my beef. I can't speak to any specific instances where this happened at Auburn, but the whole " Join us " mindset plays right into the organized team sport mindset. And it doesn't have to involve religion, even a little. The ' our way or else ' theme can crop up in all sorts of ways, and of that, I CAN speak to , from personal experience . Prayer meetings are just a vehicle by which this can be achieved. Unspoken threats of loss of PT or even scholarship for those who don't fall in line may be all too common, I suspect.

[channonc 466]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

[autigeremt 6,661]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

[TitanTiger 20,509]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

[Weegle777 78]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

But they don't want to hear that Titan, that messes up their agenda. Christian aholes!

[Weegle777 78]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

[TitanTiger 20,509]

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

Here. The only other source I saw was behind a paywall at the Montgomery Advertiser.

http://sports.yahoo....rn=ncaaf-168657

Franklin was also troubled by the constant talk about religion within the athletic department. From Tuberville to [athletic director Jay] Jacobs to most of the assistants, the talk of God and prayer never ended.

"That's all they do is pray -- and talk about praying and religion," Franklin said. "It's a constant thing with them, and it's just overwhelming at times. A lot of people use religion as a crutch, and I think that's the case there. Every word coming out of their mouths is something about religion, and most of it is just a joke."

This isn't exactly a statement of the coercive nature of religion on the AU team. It's a statement of someone who admittedly isn't all that religious being uncomfortable or annoyed with how much coaches and AD people talked about prayer and religion themselves. Nothing to do with the players or their activities.

And even sticking within the coaching staff and AD, he doesn't even make a claim that it was coercive or somehow affected his employment status there. In context, his statement comes of more as someone that feels these folks talked religion while not always living it out or being insincere.

Did he say anything beyond this?

[TitanTiger 20,509]

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

Here. The only other source I saw was behind a paywall at the Montgomery Advertiser.

http://sports.yahoo....rn=ncaaf-168657

Franklin was also troubled by the constant talk about religion within the athletic department. From Tuberville to [athletic director Jay] Jacobs to most of the assistants, the talk of God and prayer never ended.

"That's all they do is pray -- and talk about praying and religion," Franklin said. "It's a constant thing with them, and it's just overwhelming at times. A lot of people use religion as a crutch, and I think that's the case there. Every word coming out of their mouths is something about religion, and most of it is just a joke."

This isn't exactly a statement of the coercive nature of religion on the AU team. It's a statement of someone who admittedly isn't all that religious being uncomfortable or annoyed with how much coaches and AD people talked about prayer and religion themselves. Nothing to do with the players or their activities.

And even sticking within the coaching staff and AD, he doesn't even make a claim that it was coercive or somehow affected his employment status there. In context, his statement comes of more as someone that feels these folks talked religion while not always living it out or being insincere.

Did he say anything beyond this?

Actually, I found more of the quote after the point where the one above ended:

"I don't want to come off as anti-religion or that I'm not a Christian, but the best people in the world — the ones who do truly great things — they just do good things for people. You don't know most of the time if they're Muslim or Christian or anything else, because they never talk about it. But it was constant with them, and it was uncomfortable sometimes.

When you talk about your religion so much, it comes off as fake or phony. That's the way I think of several of those people [at Auburn] as fake."

http://www.thewizofodds.com/the_wiz_of_odds/2009/06/franklin-all-they-do-is-pray-at-auburn.html

This only leads me to believe even more that in full context, Franklin was not implying that the coaches or admin at Auburn were coercing kids with religion but that he simply found so much talk about one's religion to be fake or phony. It annoyed him and didn't fit his personality when it comes to matters of religion.

[homersapien 11,426]

I'm sure the basis of their legal claim (if they have made one) is that Auburn is a publicly supported institution. The "free expression" clause applies only to private individuals and organizations.

Regardless, the moral problem with institutionally sanctioned support of a particular religion is it creates a coercive atmosphere. But like I said earlier, if there is a significant number of non-participates (as EMT suggested) that's a good sign that such an atmosphere is not a problem in this case. ...

1) Isn't it possible for a religious presence on campus to be non-coercive? And, 2) should faith-based individuals (e.g. Richt, Bowden, Tuberville, etc.) be forced to give up practicing their faith in the manner that they choose upon accepting a position in a publicly-funded institution?

1) Of course it's possible. But not when a management hierarchy interjects religion onto the students or athletes participating in the respective program.

2) No, but they need to draw the line at their professional duties which require exerting authority and control.

[channonc 466]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

[TitanTiger 20,509]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

I don't think having an office is enough to claim one is "pressured" into participating in voluntary activities.

[DKW 86 7,439]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

Just curious here. PP in HSV is located in city owned property. There is no Pro-Life group allowed in city owned property. Is the city of HSV wrong to do so. I went to the city hall meetings on this. The HSV City Commissioners were adamant that PP was okay renting the brand new building space for like a $1 a year. Yet they would not hear of a Pro-Life group in the same building, nor even on any city property. Your comments?

[Mims44 1,887]

Semi related question here, I'm sure most of us played sports growing up, and I'm sure some of us were not Christians at the time.

I never felt pressured to be a christian due to prayer circles before or after practices/games. Nor did I ever feel pressured because there was a Christian pastor there usually. Did anyone else ever feel pressured by those attacks to change their entire belief system?

BTW, If I had anything negative to say about the experience it would be how woefully inadequate the pastor was in dealing with non-Christians who came to him. It would have been cool had they had multiple faith leaders to at least cover the 3 largest religions of the community, or one guy who was well versed in all three.

[japantiger 4,051]

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

Here. The only other source I saw was behind a paywall at the Montgomery Advertiser.

http://sports.yahoo....rn=ncaaf-168657

Franklin was also troubled by the constant talk about religion within the athletic department. From Tuberville to [athletic director Jay] Jacobs to most of the assistants, the talk of God and prayer never ended.

"That's all they do is pray -- and talk about praying and religion," Franklin said. "It's a constant thing with them, and it's just overwhelming at times. A lot of people use religion as a crutch, and I think that's the case there. Every word coming out of their mouths is something about religion, and most of it is just a joke."

This isn't exactly a statement of the coercive nature of religion on the AU team. It's a statement of someone who admittedly isn't all that religious being uncomfortable or annoyed with how much coaches and AD people talked about prayer and religion themselves. Nothing to do with the players or their activities.

And even sticking within the coaching staff and AD, he doesn't even make a claim that it was coercive or somehow affected his employment status there. In context, his statement comes of more as someone that feels these folks talked religion while not always living it out or being insincere.

Did he say anything beyond this?

Actually, I found more of the quote after the point where the one above ended:

"I don't want to come off as anti-religion or that I'm not a Christian, but the best people in the world — the ones who do truly great things — they just do good things for people. You don't know most of the time if they're Muslim or Christian or anything else, because they never talk about it. But it was constant with them, and it was uncomfortable sometimes.

When you talk about your religion so much, it comes off as fake or phony. That's the way I think of several of those people [at Auburn] as fake."

http://www.thewizofo...-at-auburn.html

This only leads me to believe even more that in full context, Franklin was not implying that the coaches or admin at Auburn were coercing kids with religion but that he simply found so much talk about one's religion to be fake or phony. It annoyed him and didn't fit his personality when it comes to matters of religion.

Franklin professed his religion openly; and even inflicted it on all us...he was a Loserist.

[channonc 466]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

Just curious here. PP in HSV is located in city owned property. There is no Pro-Life group allowed in city owned property. Is the city of HSV wrong to do so. I went to the city hall meetings on this. The HSV City Commissioners were adamant that PP was okay renting the brand new building space for like a $1 a year. Yet they would not hear of a Pro-Life group in the same building, nor even on any city property. Your comments?

Sorry wrong thread for this discussion.

[channonc 466]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

I don't think having an office is enough to claim one is "pressured" into participating in voluntary activities.

I think an office in with the athletic department gives the impression that this is endorsed by the University. But the office in and of itself is not pressure, but I think coupled with other things, it could add to the perceived pressure.

[TitanTiger 20,509]

I don't think it gives any impression other than "this is a person we trust to give good advice to and mentor young student athletes." If the person in that slot wasn't religious or was a Jewish rabbi, I'd feel the same way.

And there should be more to it than "it could" and "perceived."

[homersapien 11,426]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Yeah, attacking the messenger.

[homersapien 11,426]

It would be nice to read one thread on this forum without all the snark going back & forth from the usual suspects.

I think it was Tony Franklin who first mentioned the issue with the coercive nature of Christian influence on the AU team. Of course, he was embattled on all fronts while at AU so it's hard to distinguish from all the complaints that he had which was bothering him the most.

That said, I think the FFRF is off base on their unconstitutional claim because it focuses on the 1st Amendment's "establishment" clause, but conveniently ignores the "free expression thereof" clause. If a university's athletic team freely chooses to have a chaplain minister to their team, then isn't that their right? As long as no team members are forced to adopt the faith of the chaplain, then what's the problem? Freedom to partake or not in religious activities is the ultimate in freedom. I don't see an issue with FFRF attempts to educate/inform athletes of their civil rights -- if that is the true goal.

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

i don't remember reading it anywhere but i heard it live on paul finebaum. He accused auburn of using religion as a "crutch" . said all the meetings started with prayer and it made him uncomfortable because his faith was very private and personal to him.

If that is true, then FFRF has a valid point and Franklin should be their mouthpiece.

I agree. Starting a routine team meeting with a prayer would be way out of line.

i don't think it was team meetings, but staff or AD meetings.

Not quite as bad, but still wrong. I wonder if they asked about religious beliefs in the hiring interview?

[japantiger 4,051]

Let me see, on the Auburn campus there are outreach groups for the Auburn Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Caucus, Bangladesh Student Organization, Black Student Union, Chinese Student Association, Indian Student Association, International Student Organization, Jewish Student Organization, Korean Student Association...just to name a few...so does this give the appearance and create pressure on campus to turn students into Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual-Bangladeshi-Black- Chinese-Jewish-Koreans?

[homersapien 11,426]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

Any regular, organized religious activity involving the coaches and players is likely to introduce such questions in a given players mind. Better to avoid it all together.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Let me see, on the Auburn campus there are outreach groups for the Auburn Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Caucus, Bangladesh Student Organization, Black Student Union, Chinese Student Association, Indian Student Association, International Student Organization, Jewish Student Organization, Korean Student Association...just to name a few...so does this give the appearance and create pressure on campus to turn students into Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual-Bangladeshi-Black- Chinese-Jewish-Koreans?

Yea, how come Christians cant have no associations? I tell ya why. Cause the damn libtards is tryin to kill Christianity.

[homersapien 11,426]

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

Here. The only other source I saw was behind a paywall at the Montgomery Advertiser.

http://sports.yahoo....rn=ncaaf-168657

Franklin was also troubled by the constant talk about religion within the athletic department. From Tuberville to [athletic director Jay] Jacobs to most of the assistants, the talk of God and prayer never ended.

"That's all they do is pray -- and talk about praying and religion," Franklin said. "It's a constant thing with them, and it's just overwhelming at times. A lot of people use religion as a crutch, and I think that's the case there. Every word coming out of their mouths is something about religion, and most of it is just a joke."

This isn't exactly a statement of the coercive nature of religion on the AU team. It's a statement of someone who admittedly isn't all that religious being uncomfortable or annoyed with how much coaches and AD people talked about prayer and religion themselves. Nothing to do with the players or their activities.

And even sticking within the coaching staff and AD, he doesn't even make a claim that it was coercive or somehow affected his employment status there. In context, his statement comes of more as someone that feels these folks talked religion while not always living it out or being insincere.

Did he say anything beyond this?

Actually, I found more of the quote after the point where the one above ended:

"I don't want to come off as anti-religion or that I'm not a Christian, but the best people in the world — the ones who do truly great things — they just do good things for people. You don't know most of the time if they're Muslim or Christian or anything else, because they never talk about it. But it was constant with them, and it was uncomfortable sometimes.

When you talk about your religion so much, it comes off as fake or phony. That's the way I think of several of those people [at Auburn] as fake."

http://www.thewizofo...-at-auburn.html

This only leads me to believe even more that in full context, Franklin was not implying that the coaches or admin at Auburn were coercing kids with religion but that he simply found so much talk about one's religion to be fake or phony. It annoyed him and didn't fit his personality when it comes to matters of religion.

A lot of focus and discussion on religion by the authority figures in a given organization is inherently coercive to anyone in a subordinate roll in that organization.

[homersapien 11,426]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?