Can we please relax about 'socialism?'

[AUDub 11,153]

9 minutes ago, maxwere said:

@homersapien I’d disagree with you that education, infrastructure... are special cases where the public sector is qualified to make investments.  Those have empirically proven to be horrible examples.

I’m not so sure about that. I mean, the interstate highway system is pretty awesome and my public school education was serviceable. 

[I_M4_AU 7,857]

28 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Ok.  So we at least agree that some kind of restrictions are reasonable.  The 2A doesn't give everyone unfettered access to all arms.

I think you should view Hart's comments through that same prism.  He's not arguing "gun ownership = bad."  He's arguing in that section that he feels our gun laws are too lax and we are paying the price for it.  That doesn't mean we "blame the gun," it's just a recognition that modern guns  need some regulation and that perhaps (at least in his opinion) we aren't striking the correct balance right now.

Two things; just because you have a right to own, doesn’t mean you have to own a firearm.  We sometime misconstrue this simple fact.  A right gives you the right to own, but it is up to the individual to be proficient in its use.  There are consequences just like the right of free speech. 

Two, the gun laws are there, its just that law enforcement is stretched so thin, it is not a priority. It only becomes an issue when a public shooting occurs and we find out how a crazed gunman got a gun he wasn’t supposed to have.  A recent example of this is the Synagog shooting in San Diego, Ca.  A 19 year old with an AR-15 style weapon when the legal age in Ca to own a firearm is 21.  Every time we has a shooting the cries for gun control go up and law makers make a new law that is unenforceable. 

If people want to get real about school shooting, send in the TSA. They’ve done the job at airports. They tried this at the Florida school and the first thing said was it infringed on their right to privacy. So the narrative went right back to gun control.

The correct balance has been elusive due to the rights of the people it should be protecting.  Sometimes people have to be inconvenienced to ensure safety.

[maxwere 82]

58 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I’m not so sure about that. I mean, the interstate highway system is pretty awesome and my public school education was serviceable. 

Well some states report 20k per elementary kid before things like pension UALs are added in.  Locally I estimate my schools are 12-15k and they are horrible.

 

likewise, the interstate system costs 60b to maintain per year (not incl capitalized).  That’s 800 per family of four.  Let’s assume another 400 for capitalized cost. Do you get 1200 of value per year on them?  That’s about 18k miles on the FL turnpike btw.

 

Ya’ll tell me...

[AUDub 11,153]

2 minutes ago, maxwere said:

Well some states report 20k per elementary kid before things like pension UALs are added in.  Locally I estimate my schools are 12-15k and they are horrible.

 

likewise, the interstate system costs 60b to maintain per year (not incl capitalized).  That’s 800 per family of four.  Let’s assume another 400 for capitalized cost. Do you get 1200 of value per year on them?  That’s about 18k miles on the FL turnpike btw.

 

Ya’ll tell me...

Easily. My career depends upon the interstate and my education the public helped pay for, and what I do for a living isn't easily quantifiable, but the value I place upon maintaining the equipment that keeps kids alive far exceeds whatever it cost to educate me.

Not that isn't possibly a better way regarding the interstate. I'd kill for a mass transit system that would allow me to work without owning a vehicle.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

23 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Easily. My career depends upon the interstate and my education the public helped pay for, and what I do for a living isn't easily quantifiable, but the value I place upon maintaining the equipment that keeps kids alive far exceeds whatever it cost to educate me.

Not that isn't possibly a better way regarding the interstate. I'd kill for a mass transit system that would allow me to work without owning a vehicle.

We benefit from the interstate system in ways that don't include straight use by us.  Goods are cheaper because the interstate system allows trucks to move faster between cities and states over shorter distances than traditional 4 lane highways that meander through small towns.  Places that need emergency help (see Houston or New Orleans as examples) can get it quicker thanks to interstates.  Etc, etc.

As for public education, it's largely about where you live and how your state funds it.  I don't have kids, but I wouldn't hesitate for a second to send one to the public schools where I live here in Texas.  They are modern, have great teachers, and get amazing funding.  However, I wouldn't allow a single child to get a public education in my hometown of Montgomery anymore.  The system there has gone to straight poop.

[AUDub 11,153]

33 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

We benefit from the interstate system in ways that don't include straight use by us.  Goods are cheaper because the interstate system allows trucks to move faster between cities and states over shorter distances than traditional 4 lane highways that meander through small towns.  Places that need emergency help (see Houston or New Orleans as examples) can get it quicker thanks to interstates.  Etc, etc.

Oh yeah, no doubt. Didn't mean to belittle that.

33 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

As for public education, it's largely about where you live and how your state funds it.  I don't have kids, but I wouldn't hesitate for a second to send one to the public schools where I live here in Texas.  They are modern, have great teachers, and get amazing funding.  However, I wouldn't allow a single child to get a public education in my hometown of Montgomery anymore.  The system there has gone to straight poop.

Know that feel. We live in Trussville, which spun off from JeffCo schools to form their own shortly after I graduated. My kids go there and it's awesome. The city has great schools now and is willing to pay bank for them. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

51 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

New Orleans

Say what?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

13 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Say what?

I.E. Katrina response

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 minute ago, Brad_ATX said:

I.E. Katrina response

Expound

[Mikey 16,625]

13 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

We should all aspire to speak of higher mind. 

Speaking of higher mind and using words in the manner that the author used them are not synonymous. You'd think he was trying to impress a girl with his east coast dweeberism.

[AUDub 11,153]

3 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Speaking of higher mind and using words in the manner that the author used them are not synonymous. You'd think he was trying to impress a girl with his east coast dweeberism.

Flowery language can be fun, though, you irredeemably obtuse ninny and maladjusted all-defiling conglomerate of intellectual constipation.

[Mikey 16,625]

2 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Flowery language can be fun, though, you irredeemably obtuse ninny and maladjusted all-defiling conglomerate of intellectual constipation.

It can be fun when presented as fun. When used as it was used in the above article it's merely dull and tiresome and leaves the reader with the opinion that the author, havingnothing of value to say, is hiding behind the verbiage.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

40 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Expound

Simple really.  It's much more efficient to have needed help/goods shipped in via interstates versus the old highway system.  Think about how much longer support vehicles, trucks, deliveries, etc would have taken to get to the NOLA area from other parts of the country if truckers were forced to only use U.S. and state highways that have red lights and fluctuating speed limits.

Same for Houston during flooding a few years ago.  Much quicker for the "Cajun Navy" to get there via I-10 than taking back roads.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

9 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Simple really.  It's much more efficient to have needed help/goods shipped in via interstates versus the old highway system.  Think about how much longer support vehicles, trucks, deliveries, etc would have taken to get to the NOLA area from other parts of the country if truckers were forced to only use U.S. and state highways that have red lights and fluctuating speed limits.

Same for Houston during flooding a few years ago.  Much quicker for the "Cajun Navy" to get there via I-10 than taking back roads.

Yeah I was in Cuba not too long ago and they don’t have interstates like we do.

[maxwere 82]

12 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

We benefit from the interstate system in ways that don't include straight use by us.  Goods are cheaper because the interstate system allows trucks to move faster between cities and states over shorter distances than traditional 4 lane highways that meander through small towns.  Places that need emergency help (see Houston or New Orleans as examples) can get it quicker thanks to interstates.  Etc, etc.

As for public education, it's largely about where you live and how your state funds it.  I don't have kids, but I wouldn't hesitate for a second to send one to the public schools where I live here in Texas.  They are modern, have great teachers, and get amazing funding.  However, I wouldn't allow a single child to get a public education in my hometown of Montgomery anymore.  The system there has gone to straight poop.

It's impossible to benchmark those other benefits because we have no idea what other transportation solutions would emerge in its place.

For example, the monopoly of the interstate system completely stunted development of other forms like high speed rail.  Shipping costs are 25% on rail.  The interstate system was born out of special interest of the military industrial complex and its various contractors.  All told, its not the most wasteful government program, but, unless you enjoy 2 round trip roadies from Maine to LA every year, it is a wasteful government program nonetheless.

Since I have first hand experience, I will correct you on the hurricane comments.  I evac'd Rita to SA in 5 hours.  My wheels never hit interstate highway.  Interstate travelers who left the same time reported a commute of 12+ hrs (this would evenly disperse now a days with google maps).  Likewise, they were largely impassable during Harvey.  The best in town freeways are tolls.

Education quality is so much a function of the quality of the parenting of the kids that attend a particular school, not actually funding of that school.  Price (ie school zoning) is simply an economic barrier to entry, not unlike private school model.  Government has no measurable ability to influence the primary driver of education outcomes, parenting.

[homersapien 11,388]

17 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

See, satire does work.  Complaining about guns has no value, it’s the person pulling the trigger.  It’s the person driving drunk, not the car. Etc.

Are you suggesting the easy availability of guns - including military designs - play no role in the (unique) number of gun deaths in our country?

I suggest you start a thread on gun policy.  No need to hijack this one.

[homersapien 11,388]

17 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Do you think the right to bear arms should extend to RPG’s and missile batteries the same way it does guns?

After all, it's not the RPG that causes the problem, it's the person firing it.

[homersapien 11,388]

15 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

No, no I don’t. An individual can’t own a automatic weapon without sever scrutiny, I imagine an RPG or missile batteries would be a step or two above those weapons.  I wouldn’t mind owning a fully functional A4, I just could afford to operate and maintain it.  Then again, I doubt it is “legal” to own a fully functional A4 as it too. is fully automatic.

But why outlaw these weapons if they play no role in their use?

[homersapien 11,388]

14 hours ago, maxwere said:

@homersapien I’d disagree with you that education, infrastructure... are special cases where the public sector is qualified to make investments.  Those have empirically proven to be horrible examples.

If not the government, then who is going to make those investments?

And to clarify, I am not saying government needs to assume control over operating local schools (for example).  I am talking about investments in policy that would, for example, ensure that every qualified young person has access to college or technical/vocational training.  Such an investment would solve many of our economic problems.

Regarding infrastructure, who is going to invest in it other than government?  The private sector sure isn't, except for the occasional toll road.  I just don't see the business model for profiting from updating our bridges or sewer systems - pay toilets?

These are investments that are for the common good.  They provide for the society and infrastructure that allows capitalism to flourish.  They are indirect investments in capitalism.

And I think you are just flat out wrong about those being "horrible empirical examples". 

[homersapien 11,388]

11 hours ago, Mikey said:

It can be fun when presented as fun. When used as it was used in the above article it's merely dull and tiresome and leaves the reader with the opinion that the author, havingnothing of value to say, is hiding behind the verbiage.

Many of us don't find it dull or tiresome at all.

So speak for yourself.

[homersapien 11,388]

11 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Simple really.  It's much more efficient to have needed help/goods shipped in via interstates versus the old highway system.  Think about how much longer support vehicles, trucks, deliveries, etc would have taken to get to the NOLA area from other parts of the country if truckers were forced to only use U.S. and state highways that have red lights and fluctuating speed limits.

Same for Houston during flooding a few years ago.  Much quicker for the "Cajun Navy" to get there via I-10 than taking back roads.

As you probably know, one of the primary rationales for the interstate system was national defense.  Eisenhower was very impressed with Germany's autobahn.

[homersapien 11,388]

1 hour ago, maxwere said:

It's impossible to benchmark those other benefits because we have no idea what other transportation solutions would emerge in its place.

For example, the monopoly of the interstate system completely stunted development of other forms like high speed rail.  Shipping costs are 25% on rail.  The interstate system was born out of special interest of the military industrial complex and its various contractors.  All told, its not the most wasteful government program, but, unless you enjoy 2 round trip roadies from Maine to LA every year, it is a wasteful government program nonetheless.

Since I have first hand experience, I will correct you on the hurricane comments.  I evac'd Rita to SA in 5 hours.  My wheels never hit interstate highway.  Interstate travelers who left the same time reported a commute of 12+ hrs (this would evenly disperse now a days with google maps).  Likewise, they were largely impassable during Harvey.  The best in town freeways are tolls.

Education quality is so much a function of the quality of the parenting of the kids that attend a particular school, not actually funding of that school.  Price (ie school zoning) is simply an economic barrier to entry, not unlike private school model.  Government has no measurable ability to influence the primary driver of education outcomes, parenting.

I totally agree with you about the negatives associated with the interstate system.  And I agree with you regarding the superiority of an efficient rail system in terms of shipping cost, environmental impact, safety, etc.  

My only point is that neither of these are possible without government investment in both money and planning.

[maxwere 82]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

I totally agree with you about the negatives associated with the interstate system.  And I agree with you regarding the superiority of an efficient rail system in terms of shipping cost, environmental impact, safety, etc.  

My only point is that neither of these are possible without government investment in both money and planning.

Yep, not to mention the fact that the isolation of autos turn us into lazy, impatient, insufferable, isolated, hyper-REACTIONARY ($2 to original article), narcissistic dix.  ...and I like my commute.

I think they are possible.  But realistically, we'll never know.  Private companies definitely deliver better local transportation.  Roads are just another producer good for a consumer industry like Uber.  If property/right of way was not strictly regulated, via nonuniform, archaic, bureaucratic process via local county govts (to say nothing of immanent domain), would you bet against Uber... or Amazon?  I wouldn't.  And whats so special about sewer and water infrastructure?  Some of it is 100 year old clay pipe.  Att recently laid the fiber behind my house.

I never cared much for the libertarian roads argument (for or against).  Its always been something I felt I could live with.  However, life experience (and comparative conveniences) has actually pushed me closer and closer to the "privatize the damn thing" camp.

Don't misunderstand.  I'm grateful for toilets and interstates.   Not that the public sector built them, but that we live in a time in history where we have enough capital and progress to allow such buffoons the right to give us over-funded, under-serviced benefits.  The ancients had no such luxury.

[PUB78 1,358]

On 5/1/2019 at 11:05 AM, AFTiger said:

I concluded it was about justifying socialism. I addressed that with both simple terms and complex posts but you attacked them and summarily deleted them.

I also asserted that AGW was was what I considered a hoax ans also the door to implement socialism on us. But you deleted those. 

I would seem that to stay off your bad list is to completely agree with you and the other lefties.

You are demonstrating why your philosophy and socialism is inherently wrong by closing opposing debate.

 

The problem with socialism is that decisions affecting the people are decided by "elites" who think they know better than the people what is best. Mayor DeBlasio is a good example of the arbitrariness of elites when he decrees arbitrary bans to fight  global warming.

I highly recommend Mark Levin's excellent book "Ameritopia," 

https://www.amazon.com/Ameritopia-Unmaking-Mark-R-Levin/dp/1439173273

 

All excellent points AF.

[Mikey 16,625]

12 hours ago, homersapien said:

Many of us don't find it dull or tiresome at all.

So speak for yourself.

I am speaking for myself and many others. For those that don't find excessive wind-breaking via the written word dull, you have my condolences.