OSHA Seeks to add Union Reps to Inspections

[icanthearyou 4,463]

12 hours ago, GoAU said:

The point I was making about bad managers was to say I don’t believe (based on purely my experience, and maybe I’ve just worked for better than average companies) people making short sighted decisions regarding prioritizing cost over safety or taking advantage of / exploiting people is more about poor individuals than industry as a whole abusing people.   
 

Regarding your comments about people or companies making stupid (and I do think if a manager EVER puts someone’s safety at risk to save a buck, “stupid” is the nicest thing I can say - my word, not yours) decisions then they can be held personally responsible / accountable by OSHA, and frequently are.  
 

I do think your Chernobyl example is a bit of a stretch when comparing it to US industry, but I understand your point.  To the converse, I have seen unions defend (real examples) employees that operate forklifts in factories drunk (or at least with enough alcohol in their systems to cause slurred speech), maintenance employees walking on conveyor belts to save a few steps, or operators climbing over guarding rather than stopping equipment to save time.   In the last example, of course they will say the operator is under pressure to make rate, to which there is some truth but it is also stressed that while making rate is important, it is never more important than safety.  Yet, as soon as the progressive discipline policy is followed, the grievances begin.  

I completely agree that there was a time and a place for unions, I just think that time has mostly passed.   I respect your perspective, but mostly don’t agree, and I understand you feel the same regarding mine, so perhaps we just agree to disagree?  

Yes, it would be completely naive to think that companies ever put profit ahead of their deep concerns for their employees, the law, the country, humanity.  There is almost no record of such decisions.

[cole256 17,080]

14 hours ago, GoAU said:

The point I was making about bad managers was to say I don’t believe (based on purely my experience, and maybe I’ve just worked for better than average companies) people making short sighted decisions regarding prioritizing cost over safety or taking advantage of / exploiting people is more about poor individuals than industry as a whole abusing people.   
 

Regarding your comments about people or companies making stupid (and I do think if a manager EVER puts someone’s safety at risk to save a buck, “stupid” is the nicest thing I can say - my word, not yours) decisions then they can be held personally responsible / accountable by OSHA, and frequently are.  
 

I do think your Chernobyl example is a bit of a stretch when comparing it to US industry, but I understand your point.  To the converse, I have seen unions defend (real examples) employees that operate forklifts in factories drunk (or at least with enough alcohol in their systems to cause slurred speech), maintenance employees walking on conveyor belts to save a few steps, or operators climbing over guarding rather than stopping equipment to save time.   In the last example, of course they will say the operator is under pressure to make rate, to which there is some truth but it is also stressed that while making rate is important, it is never more important than safety.  Yet, as soon as the progressive discipline policy is followed, the grievances begin.  

I completely agree that there was a time and a place for unions, I just think that time has mostly passed.   I respect your perspective, but mostly don’t agree, and I understand you feel the same regarding mine, so perhaps we just agree to disagree?  

I absolutely can agree to disagree, I have seen unions try to save a persons job for making mistakes but it's not that they are saying leave this person alone and let them continue the behavior, they are just saying let them have an opportunity to improve. 

I also have seen multiple companies actually have more leniency on a company employee but a union rep no for something like being drunk on site. A union rep is banned from site whereas a company guy gets to go to rehab get probation and if they get caught again get banned from site but can return in 5 years whereas the union guy is banned for life. And that's an absolute fact. 

I don't see how my Chernobyl is a stretch when I didn't even give you the example and it's documented so we know it's true. As well the NASA stuff and that's as government as watched stuff and it still happened.

The fatigue rules for operations at nuke sites is in place because the company pushed it staff unreasonably and a person lost his life in Florida.... Most safety stuff is written in blood, I know you've heard that but to someone who may not know and may be reading this that is said because the rule is now in place because somebody got hurt and now stuff is being implemented to stop it from happening again. 

I could tell you a personal story at a gas plant where I stopped work and at first I was being threatened and forced by management but once it was investigated I turned out to be right. It's actually a situation that catapulted me to be pushed into management. 

I've seen companies be hamstringged by unions and I have also seen a company fire a guy for making a 78 on a test when he needed an 80. Didn't even give him a second try and he had moved from across the country. 

So yes I respect your opinion but in energy generation unions are absolutely needed. Checks and balances are always needed. Especially when management doesn't even have to do the hard stuff craft employees do. Many times they aren't even aware of the difficulties of some jobs they demand perfection from. 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

10 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I absolutely can agree to disagree, I have seen unions try to save a persons job for making mistakes but it's not that they are saying leave this person alone and let them continue the behavior, they are just saying let them have an opportunity to improve. 

I also have seen multiple companies actually have more leniency on a company employee but a union rep no for something like being drunk on site. A union rep is banned from site whereas a company guy gets to go to rehab get probation and if they get caught again get banned from site but can return in 5 years whereas the union guy is banned for life. And that's an absolute fact. 

I don't see how my Chernobyl is a stretch when I didn't even give you the example and it's documented so we know it's true. As well the NASA stuff and that's as government as watched stuff and it still happened.

The fatigue rules for operations at nuke sites is in place because the company pushed it staff unreasonably and a person lost his life in Florida.... Most safety stuff is written in blood, I know you've heard that but to someone who may not know and may be reading this that is said because the rule is now in place because somebody got hurt and now stuff is being implemented to stop it from happening again. 

I could tell you a personal story at a gas plant where I stopped work and at first I was being threatened and forced by management but once it was investigated I turned out to be right. It's actually a situation that catapulted me to be pushed into management. 

I've seen companies be hamstringged by unions and I have also seen a company fire a guy for making a 78 on a test when he needed an 80. Didn't even give him a second try and he had moved from across the country. 

So yes I respect your opinion but in energy generation unions are absolutely needed. Checks and balances are always needed. Especially when management doesn't even have to do the hard stuff craft employees do. Many times they aren't even aware of the difficulties of some jobs they demand perfection from. 

Shut up and do your job.  Capital will make all decisions.  Divine right of kings.  Golden rule. 

Respect authority.  Respect your betters.  You would not have a job were it not for those who own all of the capital.  Capitalism means,,, those with the capital have all of the power.  We are defined by this system, not by any other principles.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

On 12/12/2023 at 9:20 PM, GoAU said:

The point I was making about bad managers was to say I don’t believe (based on purely my experience, and maybe I’ve just worked for better than average companies) people making short sighted decisions regarding prioritizing cost over safety or taking advantage of / exploiting people is more about poor individuals than industry as a whole abusing people.   
 

Regarding your comments about people or companies making stupid (and I do think if a manager EVER puts someone’s safety at risk to save a buck, “stupid” is the nicest thing I can say - my word, not yours) decisions then they can be held personally responsible / accountable by OSHA, and frequently are.  
 

I do think your Chernobyl example is a bit of a stretch when comparing it to US industry, but I understand your point.  To the converse, I have seen unions defend (real examples) employees that operate forklifts in factories drunk (or at least with enough alcohol in their systems to cause slurred speech), maintenance employees walking on conveyor belts to save a few steps, or operators climbing over guarding rather than stopping equipment to save time.   In the last example, of course they will say the operator is under pressure to make rate, to which there is some truth but it is also stressed that while making rate is important, it is never more important than safety.  Yet, as soon as the progressive discipline policy is followed, the grievances begin.  

I completely agree that there was a time and a place for unions, I just think that time has mostly passed.   I respect your perspective, but mostly don’t agree, and I understand you feel the same regarding mine, so perhaps we just agree to disagree?  

What has happened to democracy and capitalism since the destruction of the unions?  What is the general direction of the country?

Do you believe that handing over all control to the capital class is desirable?  Are they better people?  Do they have a divine right?

Do you believe extreme inequality is desirable, ethical, sustainable?

[I_M4_AU 7,838]

11 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

What has happened to democracy and capitalism since the destruction of the unions? 

When did this happen?  Serious answer please.

[GoAU 1,600]

21 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

What has happened to democracy and capitalism since the destruction of the unions?  What is the general direction of the country?

Do you believe that handing over all control to the capital class is desirable?  Are they better people?  Do they have a divine right?

Do you believe extreme inequality is desirable, ethical, sustainable?

How about more random questions?   Maybe blame COVID on the demise of unions?   How about Kennedy’s assassination?   
 

There was (and is) no “destruction” of the unions, in terms of an organized effort.  All of the labor laws heavily favor the unions, and once a union is in place it is extremely difficult for employees that realize the union brings no real benefits to vote the unions back out.  This is due to the huge amounts of money that unions contribute to Democrat political parties.  But I’m assuming you’re ok with that, right?  
 

The decline of the general state of our nation is much more cultural than it would have to do with unions.   Don’t confuse correlation with causation.   The unions are declining because more and more people are realizing the unions have outlived  their usefulness and are now just parasites.  
 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by GoAU

[homersapien 11,373]

21 hours ago, GoAU said:

How about more random questions?   Maybe blame COVID on the demise of unions?   How about Kennedy’s assassination?   
 

There was (and is) no “destruction” of the unions, in terms of an organized effort.  All of the labor laws heavily favor the unions, and once a union is in place it is extremely difficult for employees that realize the union brings no real benefits to vote the unions back out.  This is due to the huge amounts of money that unions contribute to Democrat political parties.  But I’m assuming you’re ok with that, right?  
 

The decline of the general state of our nation is much more cultural than it would have to do with unions.   Don’t confuse correlation with causation.   The unions are declining because more and more people are realizing the unions have outlived  their usefulness and are now just parasites.  
 

 

So what's your theory for the shrinking "middle class" and/or wealth disparity?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

21 hours ago, GoAU said:

The decline of the general state of our nation is much more cultural than it would have to do with unions.

Not true.  You should read the Powell memo.  The decline is directly related to neo liberal, neo conservative economics.

[cole256 17,080]

On 12/15/2023 at 12:36 PM, GoAU said:

How about more random questions?   Maybe blame COVID on the demise of unions?   How about Kennedy’s assassination?   
 

There was (and is) no “destruction” of the unions, in terms of an organized effort.  All of the labor laws heavily favor the unions, and once a union is in place it is extremely difficult for employees that realize the union brings no real benefits to vote the unions back out.  This is due to the huge amounts of money that unions contribute to Democrat political parties.  But I’m assuming you’re ok with that, right?  
 

The decline of the general state of our nation is much more cultural than it would have to do with unions.   Don’t confuse correlation with causation.   The unions are declining because more and more people are realizing the unions have outlived  their usefulness and are now just parasites.  
 

 

Unions are declining because trade and craft jobs and workforce are declining. That's it. If there were more people the union would be the same as well. But guys creating apps by themselves and tech stuff like that that is now the new wave. 

 

Actually now that I think about it, going back to some companies will take advantage of their employees, Amazon was found to have terrible working conditions and treating people very badly, we saw Elon musk with the issues at Tesla, Google lost law suits, what do you think would have happened in Hollywood if the writers wouldn't have had their unions? Pilots had to threaten strike for their conditions. And I won't even go into all the crap airline companies have done to their employees, damn near making people work for the lowest of low and using flight benefits as reasons to hardly not pay people when in actuality the people will rarely even be able to use the benefits.....

It's just asinine to think you can say a statement so broad about unions and then feel so strongly about management or the company the other way, when we all know people who get power becomes corrupted easy, we know we can't vouch for everybody's character.

But privilege is invisible to those who has it 

[PUB78 1,358]

On 11/20/2023 at 5:57 PM, CoffeeTiger said:

I don't agree with that. The point of a union is to have collective bargaining among employees to help protect employee rights and empower employees to ask for pay and benefits that they would never have the influence to get if they were "negotiating individually".

 

Corporations spend a ton of money on Human resources, lawyers, and political lobbying to have US labor laws and regulations written as much in the Corporations favor as possible. Properly run unions provide at least a little counterbalance to give the common worker more combined resources and clout to have their voice made part of the conversation. 

 

There will always be a place for labor unions. 

The key is “ properly run unions “, if there is such a thing.

[PUB78 1,358]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:24 PM, icanthearyou said:

Shut up and do your job.  Capital will make all decisions.  Divine right of kings.  Golden rule. 

Respect authority.  Respect your betters.  You would not have a job were it not for those who own all of the capital.  Capitalism means,,, those with the capital have all of the power.  We are defined by this system, not by any other principles.

Good advice Comrade.

[PUB78 1,358]

On 12/15/2023 at 1:36 PM, GoAU said:

How about more random questions?   Maybe blame COVID on the demise of unions?   How about Kennedy’s assassination?   
 

There was (and is) no “destruction” of the unions, in terms of an organized effort.  All of the labor laws heavily favor the unions, and once a union is in place it is extremely difficult for employees that realize the union brings no real benefits to vote the unions back out.  This is due to the huge amounts of money that unions contribute to Democrat political parties.  But I’m assuming you’re ok with that, right?  
 

The decline of the general state of our nation is much more cultural than it would have to do with unions.   Don’t confuse correlation with causation.   The unions are declining because more and more people are realizing the unions have outlived  their usefulness and are now just parasites.  
 

 

Amen! Unions had their day and did much good for workers. However, many became greedy, corrupt and incompetent.  Growing up in the 2nd most unionized area of Alabama, even as a kid I saw that most union diehards were loudmouths, not very well educated, always complaining, poor attitudes, sick a lot and thought they should make as much as the managers.

That sort of attitude was present in a position I took over 30 years ago, but now they have much better and educated union representatives that know that they and co-workers have it pretty good.

[AU9377 4,931]

On 12/15/2023 at 1:36 PM, GoAU said:

How about more random questions?   Maybe blame COVID on the demise of unions?   How about Kennedy’s assassination?   
 

There was (and is) no “destruction” of the unions, in terms of an organized effort.  All of the labor laws heavily favor the unions, and once a union is in place it is extremely difficult for employees that realize the union brings no real benefits to vote the unions back out.  This is due to the huge amounts of money that unions contribute to Democrat political parties.  But I’m assuming you’re ok with that, right?  
 

The decline of the general state of our nation is much more cultural than it would have to do with unions.   Don’t confuse correlation with causation.   The unions are declining because more and more people are realizing the unions have outlived  their usefulness and are now just parasites.  
 

 

Without some kind of employment contract/agreement, employees in the South have very few rights and can be fired with no real recourse.  Unions benefit people, both members and non members, by collective bargaining.  There are circumstances and horror stories of unions acting in ways that seem like extortion.  However, that is the exception and not the norm.  There are tens of thousands of people that have worked in low paying jobs their entire lives, only to be abandoned by corporations worth billions when their jobs were moved to Mexico or China.  They are often left with no pension and no healthcare other than what the government can provide.  These people have no voice unless it is a collective voice.

[GoAU 1,600]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:53 AM, AU9377 said:

Without some kind of employment contract/agreement, employees in the South have very few rights and can be fired with no real recourse.  Unions benefit people, both members and non members, by collective bargaining.  There are circumstances and horror stories of unions acting in ways that seem like extortion.  However, that is the exception and not the norm.  There are tens of thousands of people that have worked in low paying jobs their entire lives, only to be abandoned by corporations worth billions when their jobs were moved to Mexico or China.  They are often left with no pension and no healthcare other than what the government can provide.  These people have no voice unless it is a collective voice.

And why would a company fire someone they have invested money in training for no reason?  There is no logic to that, but it sure sounds good as a talking point.  What unions excel at is in preventing people from either being rewarded based on merit, or held accountable for performance issues.  They drive costs into products by trying to force unrealistic headcount and wages which in the long term forces plants to downsize and/or move offshore and easing prices to the consumer.  
 

But hey - whatever floats your boat…..