OSHA Seeks to add Union Reps to Inspections

[autigeremt 6,617]

I thought this was interesting.

https://www.ehstoday.com/standards/osha/article/21277389/osha-seeks-to-add-union-reps-to-inspections?o_eid=8351D6722301A0C&oly_enc_id=8351D6722301A0C&rdx.ident[pull]=omeda|8351D6722301A0C&utm_campaign=CPS231115010&utm_medium=email&utm_source=OZ+EHS+Today+Daily+Update

[homersapien 11,373]

Good idea IMO.

[GoAU 1,600]

On 11/15/2023 at 11:12 AM, homersapien said:

Good idea IMO.

Not surprised.  What exactly do you think would be beneficial from this arrangement?  

[DKW 86 7,423]

On 11/17/2023 at 6:49 PM, GoAU said:

Not surprised.  What exactly do you think would be beneficial from this arrangement?  

That obvious injury and safety failures would be placed at a level where they would get fixed.

EXAMPLE: We had an area by the packing machine where half of the operators WERE EXPECTED to walk on a moving conveyor when it came time for job rotation. 
Wait, you want to cut the line off for that? Well hell no! we might lose half a unit of production every two hours. We cannot have that. So, when I got back from my meniscus surgery, the day I came back in fact, I tripped on a new unmarked metal piece used as a rail for loading the cardboard into the packing machine and fell into the open conveyor system at that point and got dragged 4-5 feet down the conveyor assembly before they could cut the line off. Tore other meniscus at that time and they started to write me up for being on drugs since I had just come back from surgery. I passed the piss test and that all went away. Suddenly after I made them write the incident up, there was a rail placed there like should have been for 19 years. They changed the procedure for changing people out by cutting off the conveyor for ten seconds during operator rotation. They also painted the new rail on the floor yellow. 

Maybe with a Union Rep there, all that happens day one, no one gets hurt and it cost the company peanuts to do it correctly the first time. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by DKW 86

[homersapien 11,373]

15 hours ago, GoAU said:

Not surprised.  What exactly do you think would be beneficial from this arrangement?  

The purpose of OSHA is to promote safety in companies.  (As  someone who worked in a foundry pre-OSHA, I can attest to the need.)

The benefits of including people in inspections/audits who actually work in the subject company should be self-evident.

[homersapien 11,373]

11 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

That obvious injury and safety failuers would be placed at a level where they would get fixed.

EXAMPLE: We had a area by the packing machine where half of the operators WERE EXPECTED to walk on a moving conveyor when it came time for job rotation. 
Wait, you want to cut the line off for that? Well hell no! we might lose half a unit of production every two hours. We cannot have that. So, when I get back from my menicus 
surgery, the day I came back in fact, I tripped on an new unmarked metal piece used as a rail for loading the cardboard into the packing machine, and fell into the open conveyor system at that point and got dragged 4-5 feet down the coveyor assembly before they could cut the line off. Tore other meniscus at that time and they started to write me up for being on drugs 
since I had just come back of from surgery, I passed the piss test and that all went away. Suddenly after I made them write the incident up, there was a rail placed there like should have been for 19 years. They changed the procedure for changing people out by cutting off the conveyor for ten seconds dueing operator rotation. They also painted the new rail on the floor yellow. 

Maybe with a Union Rep there, all that happens day one, no one get hurt and it cost the company peanuts to do it correctly the first time. 

I've got stories that are worse than that while working at a steel byproducts foundry in Birmingham - unguarded high speed belts (snatched a shovel from my hands and broke it like a matchstick, the drive chain took the finger off another worker another time), unguarded terminal connectors (on floor) with 660 volts running through it, unfastened safety blocks preventing a cupola from descending and crushing workers who were shoveling waste slag from the bottom of a pit....

[GoAU 1,600]

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

The purpose of OSHA is to promote safety in companies.  (As  someone who worked in a foundry pre-OSHA, I can attest to the need.)

The benefits of including people in inspections/audits who actually work in the subject company should be self-evident.

I’ve been running manufacturing facilities for over 25 years and have dealt with OSHA on several occasions, so I am well aware of what their role is.   
 

I have also led several unionized facilities and find it ironic that the same unions that file grievances every time an employee is disciplined for failing to follow safety rules is going to be present to supposedly “help” OSHA.  
 

OSHA inspectors are perfectly capable of ensuring that safety rules are followed without some union steward using that as a chance to “get even” with management.   
 

Of course, if the union is willing to have joint accountability for the conduct of its members, that could change things.  

[AU9377 4,931]

On 11/18/2023 at 4:21 PM, GoAU said:

I’ve been running manufacturing facilities for over 25 years and have dealt with OSHA on several occasions, so I am well aware of what their role is.   
 

I have also led several unionized facilities and find it ironic that the same unions that file grievances every time an employee is disciplined for failing to follow safety rules is going to be present to supposedly “help” OSHA.  
 

OSHA inspectors are perfectly capable of ensuring that safety rules are followed without some union steward using that as a chance to “get even” with management.   
 

Of course, if the union is willing to have joint accountability for the conduct of its members, that could change things.  

Unions can be a burden, but without them, what power would employees have?  Without any rules, employees would be even more of a disposable resource.  Without organized labor, there would have been no restrictions on hours worked, conditions, health benefits or many other things that people take for granted.

Like anything, it sometimes goes too far, but many times it is the only thing standing between corporate greed and a powerless employee.

[GoAU 1,600]

13 hours ago, AU9377 said:

Unions can be a burden, but without them, what power would employees have?  Without any rules, employees would be even more of a disposable resource.  Without organized labor, there would have been no restrictions on hours worked, conditions, health benefits or many other things that people take for granted.

Like anything, it sometimes goes too far, but many times it is the only thing standing between corporate greed and a powerless employee.

I’m not saying there was never a need for unions, but I’m saying that their time has come and past.  There is nothing a union does now that isn’t already covered by law or a free market economy.   In most cases they inhibit addressing problem employees, take advantage of their own membership, and drive so much cost into operations that they end up driving plants out of business or layoffs. 
 

Just curious if you’ve ever worked in, or supervised employees in a unionized facility (specifically manufacturing).  

[DKW 86 7,423]

2 hours ago, GoAU said:

I’m not saying there was never a need for unions, but I’m saying that their time has come and past.  There is nothing a union does now that isn’t already covered by law or a free market economy.   In most cases they inhibit addressing problem employees, take advantage of their own membership, and drive so much cost into operations that they end up driving plants out of business or layoffs. 
 

Just curious if you’ve ever worked in, or supervised employees in a unionized facility (specifically manufacturing).  

I have worked in several Production Plants. It is a plant by plant thing. You can have a great EHS Team and you can have Mgt Yes Men. The difference is not across an industry nor even an employer. Either your EHS people are there to protect, or they are there to job hold. 

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

6 hours ago, GoAU said:

I’m not saying there was never a need for unions, but I’m saying that their time has come and past.  There is nothing a union does now that isn’t already covered by law or a free market economy.   In most cases they inhibit addressing problem employees, take advantage of their own membership, and drive so much cost into operations that they end up driving plants out of business or layoffs. 
 

Just curious if you’ve ever worked in, or supervised employees in a unionized facility (specifically manufacturing).  

I don't agree with that. The point of a union is to have collective bargaining among employees to help protect employee rights and empower employees to ask for pay and benefits that they would never have the influence to get if they were "negotiating individually".

 

Corporations spend a ton of money on Human resources, lawyers, and political lobbying to have US labor laws and regulations written as much in the Corporations favor as possible. Properly run unions provide at least a little counterbalance to give the common worker more combined resources and clout to have their voice made part of the conversation. 

 

There will always be a place for labor unions. 

[SaltyTiger 7,803]

See no problem with an appointed rep. From my experience OSHA inspectors spend as much time as they please or feel needed with rank and file labor during inspections. 
 

Speaking from a construction industry view and unions are pretty much non existent in our area.

[GoAU 1,600]

On 11/20/2023 at 1:36 PM, DKW 86 said:

I have worked in several Production Plants. It is a plant by plant thing. You can have a great EHS Team and you can have Mgt Yes Men. The difference is not across an industry nor even an employer. Either your EHS people are there to protect, or they are there to job hold. 

I disagree with part of this - it is not solely the role of the EHS team, it is the role of all employees to keep safe.  As a Plant Manager and DoO, it is / was always my first responsibility to keep every employee safe.  The EHS team certainly facilitates that, but it has to start at the top.  I can’t think of a single manufacturing leader I’ve ever met that felt otherwise.   
 

If I ever had a planet manager or other manager in one of my operations that didn’t share this belief, they would be better suited to move along.  

[GoAU 1,600]

On 11/20/2023 at 5:57 PM, CoffeeTiger said:

I don't agree with that. The point of a union is to have collective bargaining among employees to help protect employee rights and empower employees to ask for pay and benefits that they would never have the influence to get if they were "negotiating individually".

 

Corporations spend a ton of money on Human resources, lawyers, and political lobbying to have US labor laws and regulations written as much in the Corporations favor as possible. Properly run unions provide at least a little counterbalance to give the common worker more combined resources and clout to have their voice made part of the conversation. 

 

There will always be a place for labor unions. 

The pay is more affected by what the market allows than what the union can ask for.  
 

The term “properly run” is key, as I haven’t seen too many of those.  They are usually more senior employees that are self serving and hide behind “seniority” rather than merit.  But, I’ll sure there are some out there….

[cole256 17,074]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:04 AM, GoAU said:

I’m not saying there was never a need for unions, but I’m saying that their time has come and past.  There is nothing a union does now that isn’t already covered by law or a free market economy.   In most cases they inhibit addressing problem employees, take advantage of their own membership, and drive so much cost into operations that they end up driving plants out of business or layoffs. 
 

Just curious if you’ve ever worked in, or supervised employees in a unionized facility (specifically manufacturing).  

Things aren't any different now,  if a company doesn't have a contract to abide by they will take advantage of an employee any chance they can get.  They will find every loop hole and they will move the goal posts. 

Plants without unions take advantage of everything from training to work hours and love using leverage to bully employees

[GoAU 1,600]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:21 PM, cole256 said:

Things aren't any different now,  if a company doesn't have a contract to abide by they will take advantage of an employee any chance they can get.  They will find every loop hole and they will move the goal posts. 

Plants without unions take advantage of everything from training to work hours and love using leverage to bully employees

I’m sorry, but you are incorrect.  To make a general action like this is just stereotyping based on your preconceived bias.  

How many manufacturing plants have you worked in or been a part of the leadership team of?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

21 minutes ago, GoAU said:

I’m sorry, but you are incorrect.  To make a general action like this is just stereotyping based on your preconceived bias.  

How many manufacturing plants have you worked in or been a part of the leadership team of?

It can be credibly argued that the largest crime in America is wage theft.

[cole256 17,074]

32 minutes ago, GoAU said:

I’m sorry, but you are incorrect.  To make a general action like this is just stereotyping based on your preconceived bias.  

How many manufacturing plants have you worked in or been a part of the leadership team of?

I've been in leadership at 5 plants now.  Energy generation a much grander scale than a manufacturing plant with more people. 

But tell me what makes your bias and stereotypes legit and mine incorrect?

Oh and I started out at 19 as a general laborer before I had graduated college and I watched my mother work with many contractors so I have been in the roles and seen it from both sides as union worker, union representative, and now company manager.  What are your credentials almighty one?

[cole256 17,074]

On 11/20/2023 at 4:57 PM, CoffeeTiger said:

I don't agree with that. The point of a union is to have collective bargaining among employees to help protect employee rights and empower employees to ask for pay and benefits that they would never have the influence to get if they were "negotiating individually".

 

Corporations spend a ton of money on Human resources, lawyers, and political lobbying to have US labor laws and regulations written as much in the Corporations favor as possible. Properly run unions provide at least a little counterbalance to give the common worker more combined resources and clout to have their voice made part of the conversation. 

 

There will always be a place for labor unions. 

Absolutely right, and it's even more than pay and benefits,  it's hours worked, being forced to work, receiving training, being treated as a human,  not falling on a sword for someone else, proper tools to keep yourself safe AND completing the job and most importantly honoring your word. 

[tomcat 569]

On 11/19/2023 at 8:54 PM, AU9377 said:

Unions can be a burden, but without them, what power would employees have?  Without any rules, employees would be even more of a disposable resource.  Without organized labor, there would have been no restrictions on hours worked, conditions, health benefits or many other things that people take for granted.

Like anything, it sometimes goes too far, but many times it is the only thing standing between corporate greed and a powerless employee.

I worked in the early days of a now corporate behemoth in healthcare,  when it was a smaller, fledgling operation. The HR VP always said that companies who deserve a union generally get a union. The operation I was in probably deserved one. The Medical Director was a behind the scenes tyrant to third shift production people. The company won a unionization effort because the union over promised and developed a credibility issue.

Unions are not a panacea, but are still needed because companies are too often run for “shareholder value”, and of course hefty bonuses and stock options for top management. This leads to a short term myopic focus on “this quarter”. Employee morale, safety, and service to the customer can take a hit.

[GoAU 1,600]

15 hours ago, cole256 said:

I've been in leadership at 5 plants now.  Energy generation a much grander scale than a manufacturing plant with more people. 

But tell me what makes your bias and stereotypes legit and mine incorrect?

Oh and I started out at 19 as a general laborer before I had graduated college and I watched my mother work with many contractors so I have been in the roles and seen it from both sides as union worker, union representative, and now company manager.  What are your credentials almighty one?

Since leaving the military, I have been in manufacturing for well over 20 years, mostly managing single or multi site operations in the US, as well as Canada and Mexico.  I have led both Union and non Union plants.  I have, not a single time, ever seen or heard of a company “taking advantage” of an employee or group of employees due to the absence of a contract.  This includes not only facilities I ran, but many others as well.  The bottom line is the “evil managers” work in the same facilities as the people and are just doing what needs to be done to keep the plants in business and profitable.   A poor management team that creates a poor culture will reap the seeds that they sew, and it is apparent in turnover and productivity.   Managers are no different from any other people - there are some that are more effective or better than others, but to think there is some sort of conspiracy to oppress people is silly.  
 

I have admittedly seen companies sometimes have to make unpopular decisions from time to time, but never without valid reasons.  And those unfortunate circumstances happen just as often, if not more so, in union plants.  
 

I will also say many more unionized plants have toxic cultures and longevity issues than non union shops.  Those contracts effectively tie the hands of managers trying to do what they can to help people.   Unions actively prevent people advancing based on merit and hinder productivity.  I also find it hilarious that you mention safety.  The only union I’ve ever seen that actually puts its money where its mouth is with regards to enforcing safety in the workplace are the linemen represented by the IBEW.   The rest talk a bit game and just try to obstruct.  
 

In reality, most unions just try to drum up problems to justify their own existence.  They pretend that by inserting a third party into a discussion (that has zero interest in a well functioning relationship in a plant) that they can help.   In reality, they only want to skim money from its members.   
 

[cole256 17,074]

35 minutes ago, GoAU said:

Since leaving the military, I have been in manufacturing for well over 20 years, mostly managing single or multi site operations in the US, as well as Canada and Mexico.  I have led both Union and non Union plants.  I have, not a single time, ever seen or heard of a company “taking advantage” of an employee or group of employees due to the absence of a contract.  This includes not only facilities I ran, but many others as well.  The bottom line is the “evil managers” work in the same facilities as the people and are just doing what needs to be done to keep the plants in business and profitable.   A poor management team that creates a poor culture will reap the seeds that they sew, and it is apparent in turnover and productivity.   Managers are no different from any other people - there are some that are more effective or better than others, but to think there is some sort of conspiracy to oppress people is silly.  
 

I have admittedly seen companies sometimes have to make unpopular decisions from time to time, but never without valid reasons.  And those unfortunate circumstances happen just as often, if not more so, in union plants.  
 

I will also say many more unionized plants have toxic cultures and longevity issues than non union shops.  Those contracts effectively tie the hands of managers trying to do what they can to help people.   Unions actively prevent people advancing based on merit and hinder productivity.  I also find it hilarious that you mention safety.  The only union I’ve ever seen that actually puts its money where its mouth is with regards to enforcing safety in the workplace are the linemen represented by the IBEW.   The rest talk a bit game and just try to obstruct.  
 

In reality, most unions just try to drum up problems to justify their own existence.  They pretend that by inserting a third party into a discussion (that has zero interest in a well functioning relationship in a plant) that they can help.   In reality, they only want to skim money from its members.   
 

Like I said I am management but it's clear as day you have your mind made as not surprisingly you can't see past your industry and experiences. Clearly you haven't ever stepped foot on a nuclear facility saying the ridiculous stuff y you said.  Not even going to keep arguing with you as it's subjective the overall convo but some of your facts just simply aren't true.  Between the two of us I'm the only one that has been on both sides of the coin....

 

One thing you didn't answer though was why you felt your preconceived stereotypes and biases are fine or Trumps anyone else's, you certainly aren't exhibiting the characteristics of any manager I'd ever work under. 

 

 

[GoAU 1,600]

4 hours ago, cole256 said:

Like I said I am management but it's clear as day you have your mind made as not surprisingly you can't see past your industry and experiences. Clearly you haven't ever stepped foot on a nuclear facility saying the ridiculous stuff y you said.  Not even going to keep arguing with you as it's subjective the overall convo but some of your facts just simply aren't true.  Between the two of us I'm the only one that has been on both sides of the coin....

 

One thing you didn't answer though was why you felt your preconceived stereotypes and biases are fine or Trumps anyone else's, you certainly aren't exhibiting the characteristics of any manager I'd ever work under. 

 

 

What “coin” are you referring to?  There are many more than 2 areas that unions have crept into society besides just manufacturing and nuclear power.  Teacher and public service unions, service industries, drivers & pilots, longshoremen, etc. all have union efforts / issues.  
 

I was also very transparent that I was basing my opinion on my first hand experience of several factories I have led, other plants in companies I have worked at, and numerous others I haven visited and benchmarked.  I was clear that they were nothing more than my opinion, but that’s the whole point of this forum, right?   I acknowledged that I have no doubt there are bad managers out there, but I also don’t think there is a large intentional scheme to oppress or take advantage of workers, but hey - believe what you want as you have biases and opinions and they are no more or less fact centered than mine.  But, at least consider this - why is the overall rate of unionization in the manufacturing sector in the US declining?   
 

As far as that last, not so subtle, dig - I really could care less whether or not you and I would ever work on the same team.  I personally feel you could easily be an entitled malcontent that constantly looks for things to complain about - but I truly don’t know you other than the fact we have differing political views and I could be way off.  For all I know you might be a hard working, fun loving guy that is just confused about politics   
 

My strategy with regards to labor relations is really quite simple - follow the Golden Rule and treat all associates as I would want to be treated or to have my family work there.  I have to balance what is right for the company and shareholders with what is right for the team.  “Right” isn’t always defined as immediate wants, but rather the long term security of the plant so the people can stay employed and provide for their families, but always communicate the “why” behind decisions.  

[cole256 17,074]

35 minutes ago, GoAU said:

What “coin” are you referring to?  There are many more than 2 areas that unions have crept into society besides just manufacturing and nuclear power.  Teacher and public service unions, service industries, drivers & pilots, longshoremen, etc. all have union efforts / issues.  
 

I was also very transparent that I was basing my opinion on my first hand experience of several factories I have led, other plants in companies I have worked at, and numerous others I haven visited and benchmarked.  I was clear that they were nothing more than my opinion, but that’s the whole point of this forum, right?   I acknowledged that I have no doubt there are bad managers out there, but I also don’t think there is a large intentional scheme to oppress or take advantage of workers, but hey - believe what you want as you have biases and opinions and they are no more or less fact centered than mine.  But, at least consider this - why is the overall rate of unionization in the manufacturing sector in the US declining?   
 

As far as that last, not so subtle, dig - I really could care less whether or not you and I would ever work on the same team.  I personally feel you could easily be an entitled malcontent that constantly looks for things to complain about - but I truly don’t know you other than the fact we have differing political views and I could be way off.  For all I know you might be a hard working, fun loving guy that is just confused about politics   
 

My strategy with regards to labor relations is really quite simple - follow the Golden Rule and treat all associates as I would want to be treated or to have my family work there.  I have to balance what is right for the company and shareholders with what is right for the team.  “Right” isn’t always defined as immediate wants, but rather the long term security of the plant so the people can stay employed and provide for their families, but always communicate the “why” behind decisions.  

So now you are having a different tone which could lead to a more productive conversation, of course I know there are many different unions in many different areas of society,  you asked me my experience in a plant.  As far as that goes it seems that between me and you I'm the one that has experience in both roles as far as a worker in a union and management for a company.  So when I tell you what I've seen it can't just be whiffed off and said it doesn't exist because if it doesn't exist how did I see and experience it? 

Yes you did say you were basing your opinion off your experience and that's fine but you started off saying everything I said was wrong and you said was right..... and that's simply not true.  I don't know what point you feel like you saying that there are bad managers exist makes,  but that's not a problem, the problem is when you say absolute stuff like unions only want to skim money and don't serve purpose and stuff like that. 

You also introduced stuff to argue about that nobody said,  nobody said there was a conspiracy to oppress people,  you even put the term evil managers in quotation marks and nobody said that.  Who are you quoting? Maybe you should slow down and listen, it seems you are so passionate about it you are creating stuff you either think you read or read before I guess?

But everything I said was factual because once again I either seen it or experienced it.  The difference between you and I is you are speaking in absolute and saying stuff doesn't exist where I'm saying certain things has happened I'm not saying all of anything is one way or the other so there is a difference one being more factual than the other.  

I don't think it was a dig pointing out how you entered matter of factly saying you are wrong and I am right  because someone of your experience knows that's not a quality of a good leader.  I even made it a point to say exhibiting the qualities in this conversation as opposed to saying something absolute like,  you don't have the qualities of a good manager.  As far as your dig of entitled looking for something to complain about....I mean you are more than entitled to your opinion but you couldn't have came up with that from this conversation. 

Lastly it's cool that you view management the way you do, but the point is, like you yourself stated everybody in management isn't good.  And for some people having that contract protects them from bad people.  Its no different than a prenuptial agreement.  You can want the marriage to work, but if for some reason stuff doesn't there's a contract that we both agreed to before we did business together that protects both of us. 

 

This is silly to argue I know you have seen plenty of osha recordable that some were people running equipment on it's last leg to save money and equipment failed and some people got hurt. You know that has happened in history. 

I work nuclear there was almost a big accident back in the day at Davis Bessie if I'm not mistaken,  there were signs of containment having problems and they (the company) kept pushing the repair back because every day a nuke plant isn't running you are losing around 1.5 million dollars and it came inches close to having a break in containment.  People that aren't part of a union if the company says do it and they don't they can be fired,  you have a union you can say hell no this isn't safe. Because you can always find somebody who's in a bad situation that will do work for cheaper and take risks. It's business. Now a good manager would stop and listen and say it's not safe? We have to come up with a better plan. But what if the manager isn't a good person? What if the manager 250,000 completion bonus is tied to the completion date? A selfish person may try to push it.  

And I can point out examples of a company sacrificing people lives during chernobyl and actually even the space shuttle explosion as far as NASA.

[GoAU 1,600]

The point I was making about bad managers was to say I don’t believe (based on purely my experience, and maybe I’ve just worked for better than average companies) people making short sighted decisions regarding prioritizing cost over safety or taking advantage of / exploiting people is more about poor individuals than industry as a whole abusing people.   
 

Regarding your comments about people or companies making stupid (and I do think if a manager EVER puts someone’s safety at risk to save a buck, “stupid” is the nicest thing I can say - my word, not yours) decisions then they can be held personally responsible / accountable by OSHA, and frequently are.  
 

I do think your Chernobyl example is a bit of a stretch when comparing it to US industry, but I understand your point.  To the converse, I have seen unions defend (real examples) employees that operate forklifts in factories drunk (or at least with enough alcohol in their systems to cause slurred speech), maintenance employees walking on conveyor belts to save a few steps, or operators climbing over guarding rather than stopping equipment to save time.   In the last example, of course they will say the operator is under pressure to make rate, to which there is some truth but it is also stressed that while making rate is important, it is never more important than safety.  Yet, as soon as the progressive discipline policy is followed, the grievances begin.  

I completely agree that there was a time and a place for unions, I just think that time has mostly passed.   I respect your perspective, but mostly don’t agree, and I understand you feel the same regarding mine, so perhaps we just agree to disagree?