Roseanne Barr... what the?

[sandyclawedtiger 206]

I don't usually get in to the political debate and I have never watched Bill Mahr. But sitting here surfing the net and had HBO on. The show was on and a statement by Roseanne Barr just hit me like a ton of bricks. The show was typically left slanted, as most of these type shows are, and after lots of right bashing(actually I chuckeled to some of the Bush jokes) they brought on Roseanne. Got her gabbing and tryed to get her to be ,well lets just say, Roseanne. She answered one question, and I paraphrase, "I'm not neither party. I'm a firm believer in bringing this country dangerously close to the middle." Don't know why i posted this but I think its because someone has findly pretty much summed it all up what I think(again just what I think) a lot of people in this country are starting to feel. I just hope the next few elections we prove it.

[80Tiger 904]

What does "the middle" mean? If you are in the middle what are your stands on most issues?

1. Taxes- more or less. Do more takes grow the economy or less taxes?

2. Federal programs- more or less.

3. Defense- Cut the defense budget or grow it.

4. Social policy- does govt take care of those that are less fortunate (welfare, etc) or does the private sector/ individual?

5. Abortion- Pro-choice or pro life ( and exactly what is the middle here).

I am not making a statement, I just truly wonder by what someone means by being in the "middle".

For those that don't agree with my positions or are on the "other side" at least they take a stand and believe in something and have a principle. There are some/many things that there is no middle.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

I think what people have grown tired of are the "all or nothing" positions each party takes on the various issues. They are tired of the false dichotomies they are presented. Like "big gov't vs small gov't". How about "smart gov't"? How about "efficient gov't?" I don't care about big or small as much as I care about effectiveness and not wasting money on things that don't work. If a government program, run properly, can get the job done best, great. If the private sector can do it better and cheaper, great! But stop buying into all the ideological crap that it has to be one side or the other with no in between.

I guess what I'm saying is, people don't care if solutions to the issues come from Democrats, Republicans or some mish-mash of both sides ideas...they just want solutions, dammit.

[AURaptor 1,126]

The middle = the "can't we all just get along" crowd. These folks are willing to overlook (ignore) the facts and just want everything to be made 'better'. Damn the details, spare no expense, just get things fixed. These are the worst type of electorate a free nation can have, if it hopes to remain free.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

The middle = the "can't we all just get along" crowd.

No, it's the "can't we stop fighting long enough to actually do something worthwhile" crowd.

These folks are willing to overlook (ignore) the facts and just want everything to be made 'better'. Damn the details, spare no expense, just get things fixed. These are the worst type of electorate a free nation can have, if it hopes to remain free.

Nice strawman.

Actually, as I said it's not about things being "better", it's about doing things right. Again, not about spending money or not (big vs small govt) but about good government, efficient government, smart government. I don't give a damn about ideological purity. Both sides have good ideas and both sides have bad ideas. Let's get over the stupid partisan bickering and try to come up with things that work rather than parroting the propaganda each side's war room feeds us.

[CCTAU 3,350]

I think what people have grown tired of are the "all or nothing" positions each party takes on the various issues. They are tired of the false dichotomies they are presented. Like "big gov't vs small gov't". How about "smart gov't"? How about "efficient gov't?" I don't care about big or small as much as I care about effectiveness and not wasting money on things that don't work. If a government program, run properly, can get the job done best, great. If the private sector can do it better and cheaper, great! But stop buying into all the ideological crap that it has to be one side or the other with no in between.

I guess what I'm saying is, people don't care if solutions to the issues come from Democrats, Republicans or some mish-mash of both sides ideas...they just want solutions, dammit.

Very apt points from a fiscal side. From a security side, folks wan to be safe and they want our country to be secure. Repubs are percieved as being better at the safe part, but both absolutely SUCK at immigration. ALL polls show that the people are tired of illegal immigration, yet neither party will step in and do ANYTHING.

But I believe fiscally is where the middle will meet. And that which descibes the middle best.

[AURaptor 1,126]

Let's get over the stupid partisan bickering and try to come up with things that work rather than parroting the propaganda each side's war room feeds us.

Those who just want everyone to make nice see it all as 'stupid partisan bickering'. Sure, there are folks who fight good ideas if it harms their party's standing. Most of the time, you'll see them as Democrats. But there are things which are worth fighting for, and no amount of pandering or mudslinging should deter us from making the right decissions.

[Ranger12 46]

No such thing as the middle. Has not been since the birth of our great country. Thomas Jefferson as the first Secretary of State and Alexander Hamilton as the first Secretary of Treasury basically started the opposing views of the two party system and the "bickering" has been going on ever since. It will probably never end, so people usually either choose a said or get stuck in the middle, or in the "crossfire" being a better word.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

I'm sorry, but that's horsesh*t. Sure, there are a few things that you stand on principle about. But there are many, many things that can be better solved by listening to both sides, not opposing ideas just because they don't come from you own camp, and crafting solutions that work in a real, practical world and not just some utopian ideologically pure dream world. But we have way too many people who only think about winning petty partisan turf wars or are too gutless to oppose their own party when they are wrong.

[Ranger12 46]

Hey, I am just saying how it has always been and how it will probably always be. I'm not saying it is right. I would love to see a third party become powerful, but this country has never accepted a party in the middle and I doubt it ever will.

[channonc 466]

Hey, I am just saying how it has always been and how it will probably always be. I'm not saying it is right. I would love to see a third party become powerful, but this country has never accepted a party in the middle and I doubt it ever will.

Just curious... why does it have to be a party in the middle, why can't it just be individuals that are in the middle?

[AURaptor 1,126]

I'm sorry, but that's horsesh*t. Sure, there are a few things that you stand on principle about. But there are many, many things that can be better solved by listening to both sides, not opposing ideas just because they don't come from you own camp, and crafting solutions that work in a real, practical world and not just some utopian ideologically pure dream world. But we have way too many people who only think about winning petty partisan turf wars or are too gutless to oppose their own party when they are wrong.

What, specifically, is horsesh*t ? Can you identify anything specific ? Clinton vetoed the Welfare Reform bill twice, before finally signing it. Since then, it's worked extremely well. He caved, we all won. Bush tried to 'play nice' and let Ted Kennedy write his education bill. Now Uncle Ted is the biggest critic of the President, with Education being one of his biggest issues. No good deed goes unpunished.

Sorry, but what we have here is ( idealy) 2 direct opposite views of what Gov't is good for. It goes back to the State's Rights vs Fed Govt's Rights. Big Gov't vs Small Gov't. Fact is, very few things can be accomplished by both sides agreeing equally.

[channonc 466]

Fact is, very few things can be accomplished by both sides agreeing equally.

You are very misguided as to what happens in Washington then. How do you think anything gets accomplished?? FYI, there is a lot more going on then the "hot button" issues, and if you think authorizations/appropriations bills, budget referendums and supplementals get passed just by one side, think again. Oversight is done by both sides, and most of the time, done critically by both sides. Trust me, some of you would be shocked to see how well both sides actually get along, and how a lot of issues are not "partisan." I would tell you that a lot of issues are actually more divided by region than by party.

Fact is Raptor, very few things go unaccomplished b/c both sides couldn't find a resolution. Those are just the ones that happen to be "hot button" and make great news stories.

You would be wise to educate yourself on the political process before spouting.

[Tiger Al 0]

Fact is, very few things can be accomplished by both sides agreeing equally.

You are very misguided as to what happens in Washington then. How do you think anything gets accomplished?? FYI, there is a lot more going on then the "hot button" issues, and if you think authorizations/appropriations bills, budget referendums and supplementals get passed just by one side, think again. Oversight is done by both sides, and most of the time, done critically by both sides. Trust me, some of you would be shocked to see how well both sides actually get along, and how a lot of issues are not "partisan." I would tell you that a lot of issues are actually more divided by region than by party.

Fact is Raptor, very few things go unaccomplished b/c both sides couldn't find a resolution. Those are just the ones that happen to be "hot button" and make great news stories.

You would be wise to educate yourself on the political process before spouting.

Ouch!!!

[AURaptor 1,126]

Fact is, very few things can be accomplished by both sides agreeing equally.

You are very misguided as to what happens in Washington then. How do you think anything gets accomplished?? FYI, there is a lot more going on then the "hot button" issues, and if you think authorizations/appropriations bills, budget referendums and supplementals get passed just by one side, think again. Oversight is done by both sides, and most of the time, done critically by both sides. Trust me, some of you would be shocked to see how well both sides actually get along, and how a lot of issues are not "partisan." I would tell you that a lot of issues are actually more divided by region than by party.

Fact is Raptor, very few things go unaccomplished b/c both sides couldn't find a resolution. Those are just the ones that happen to be "hot button" and make great news stories.

You would be wise to educate yourself on the political process before spouting.

Sadly, it's you who lives in a polyanna world. We don't have real immigration answers coming from DC, because each party has it's own political interest at stake. Same goes w/ Education, tax reform, etc....the list goes on and on. There should be drilling in ANWR by now, but there isn't. The Social Security system is a complete failure, and should be privatized. On the RARE occasion that something of real value does get past, it comes at a great cost. A pork barrell project in exchange for a vote on another piece of legislation.

You would be wise to educate yourself blah blah blah.... Go be condescending somewhere else, ok? Stop wasting my time.

[Ranger12 46]

Hey, I am just saying how it has always been and how it will probably always be. I'm not saying it is right. I would love to see a third party become powerful, but this country has never accepted a party in the middle and I doubt it ever will.

Just curious... why does it have to be a party in the middle, why can't it just be individuals that are in the middle?

How can any third party become equal to the other two without it being made up of individuals from the "middle"? It sure the heck can't resemble one of the other two parties or it would never get off the ground to begin with. Without a third party with a "middle of the road" platform, these "middle" individuals have only three options...democrat, republican, or don't vote.

My point was that since the beginning of this country, there have been always been two dominant parties with beliefs mostly on extreme or the other. Over time those parties views have swapped extremes, parties have changed names, or platforms, but during presidential elections, there has never been a party that was in the middle.

Dems and Republicans have swapped their conservative and liberal "titles" over time. The conservative Jefferson Democrat-Republicans later become the more liberal Jacksonian democrats that is today's Democratic party. The more liberal Hamilton Federalist (Republicans) later became the Lincoln conservative republicans of today's Republican Party. Nowhere in there did a third party really challenge those two parties. Even most third parties in history was a spinoff of one of those parties because delegates of a certain party did not like the party nominee.

Like I said, I would love to see a strong middle of the road third party. But then again, what is middle? To one person, the middle is socially conservative, but fiscally liberal. To another middle would be socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. So, there is that blurry area of where the middle lies. As you see, even "middle" individuals would be split between two viewpoints.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

What, specifically, is horsesh*t ? Can you identify anything specific ?

I wasn't saying some particular bill was or wasn't. I was saying that the idea that "there is no middle" or that the "right decisions" are always on one side or the other. Many times, in fact most times, there are workable, practical solutions to problems that don't fall neatly into either sides ideological checkboxes, but borrow from both. But the pressure to toe the party line and demonize the other side all too often rules the day so we get stuck with a bunch of bozos arguing about nothing while accomplishing the same.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

We don't have real immigration answers coming from DC, because each party has it's own political interest at stake. Same goes w/ Education, tax reform, etc....the list goes on and on.

Isn't this what I've been saying?

[channonc 466]

Fact is, very few things can be accomplished by both sides agreeing equally.

You are very misguided as to what happens in Washington then. How do you think anything gets accomplished?? FYI, there is a lot more going on then the "hot button" issues, and if you think authorizations/appropriations bills, budget referendums and supplementals get passed just by one side, think again. Oversight is done by both sides, and most of the time, done critically by both sides. Trust me, some of you would be shocked to see how well both sides actually get along, and how a lot of issues are not "partisan." I would tell you that a lot of issues are actually more divided by region than by party.

Fact is Raptor, very few things go unaccomplished b/c both sides couldn't find a resolution. Those are just the ones that happen to be "hot button" and make great news stories.

You would be wise to educate yourself on the political process before spouting.

Sadly, it's you who lives in a polyanna world. We don't have real immigration answers coming from DC, because each party has it's own political interest at stake. Same goes w/ Education, tax reform, etc....the list goes on and on. There should be drilling in ANWR by now, but there isn't. The Social Security system is a complete failure, and should be privatized. On the RARE occasion that something of real value does get past, it comes at a great cost. A pork barrell project in exchange for a vote on another piece of legislation.

You would be wise to educate yourself blah blah blah.... Go be condescending somewhere else, ok? Stop wasting my time.

Um, fyi Raptor, I work in the Senate... so I do know first hand how the process works. You are right that the "hot button" issues are partisan (ANWAR, education reform, immigration), however, there are lots of bipartisan legislation that gets passed and is just as important, just not something that is an interesting news story, so most never hear about in the mainstream news. There were 397 public laws that were passed this year. I am not sure I would catagorize that as "nothing."

[Tiger Al 0]

Fact is, very few things can be accomplished by both sides agreeing equally.

You are very misguided as to what happens in Washington then. How do you think anything gets accomplished?? FYI, there is a lot more going on then the "hot button" issues, and if you think authorizations/appropriations bills, budget referendums and supplementals get passed just by one side, think again. Oversight is done by both sides, and most of the time, done critically by both sides. Trust me, some of you would be shocked to see how well both sides actually get along, and how a lot of issues are not "partisan." I would tell you that a lot of issues are actually more divided by region than by party.

Fact is Raptor, very few things go unaccomplished b/c both sides couldn't find a resolution. Those are just the ones that happen to be "hot button" and make great news stories.

You would be wise to educate yourself on the political process before spouting.

Sadly, it's you who lives in a polyanna world. We don't have real immigration answers coming from DC, because each party has it's own political interest at stake. Same goes w/ Education, tax reform, etc....the list goes on and on. There should be drilling in ANWR by now, but there isn't. The Social Security system is a complete failure, and should be privatized. On the RARE occasion that something of real value does get past, it comes at a great cost. A pork barrell project in exchange for a vote on another piece of legislation.

You would be wise to educate yourself blah blah blah.... Go be condescending somewhere else, ok? Stop wasting my time.

Um, fyi Raptor, I work in the Senate... so I do know first hand how the process works. You are right that the "hot button" issues are partisan (ANWAR, education reform, immigration), however, there are lots of bipartisan legislation that gets passed and is just as important, just not something that is an interesting news story, so most never hear about in the mainstream news. There were 397 public laws that were passed this year. I am not sure I would catagorize that as "nothing."

Raptor's already made up his mind, channon. Please don't confuse him with facts and reason.

[AURaptor 1,126]

Um, fyi Raptor, I work in the Senate... so I do know first hand how the process works. You are right that the "hot button" issues are partisan (ANWAR, education reform, immigration), however, there are lots of bipartisan legislation that gets passed and is just as important, just not something that is an interesting news story, so most never hear about in the mainstream news. There were 397 public laws that were passed this year. I am not sure I would catagorize that as "nothing."

You 'work' in the Senate ? There's an oxymoron, if ever there was one! C'mon, you're a public servant, and deserve a bit of good natured ribbing. And while you pat yourself on the back for almost 400 new laws passed, ( how COULD we ever survive w/ out more laws? ) , how about dealing w/ the big issues, instead of pandering to the special interest ? That's all I'm saying.

TigerAl, what's the matter ? Feeling neglected? Need to ride someone's coat tails because you can't stand on your own 2 feet? How about saving all that cheerleading talent for Saturday, when uga comes to town. Sheesh !

[Tiger Al 0]

Um, fyi Raptor, I work in the Senate... so I do know first hand how the process works. You are right that the "hot button" issues are partisan (ANWAR, education reform, immigration), however, there are lots of bipartisan legislation that gets passed and is just as important, just not something that is an interesting news story, so most never hear about in the mainstream news. There were 397 public laws that were passed this year. I am not sure I would catagorize that as "nothing."

You 'work' in the Senate ? There's an oxymoron, if ever there was one! C'mon, you're a public servant, and deserve a bit of good natured ribbing. And while you pat yourself on the back for almost 400 new laws passed, ( how COULD we ever survive w/ out more laws? ) , how about dealing w/ the big issues, instead of pandering to the special interest ? That's all I'm saying.

TigerAl, what's the matter ? Feeling neglected? Need to ride someone's coat tails because you can't stand on your own 2 feet? How about saving all that cheerleading talent for Saturday, when uga comes to town. Sheesh !

You are predictable.

[AURaptor 1,126]

You are predictable.

Good! Then you'll have no problem shopping for me this Christmas !!

[channonc 466]

Um, fyi Raptor, I work in the Senate... so I do know first hand how the process works. You are right that the "hot button" issues are partisan (ANWAR, education reform, immigration), however, there are lots of bipartisan legislation that gets passed and is just as important, just not something that is an interesting news story, so most never hear about in the mainstream news. There were 397 public laws that were passed this year. I am not sure I would catagorize that as "nothing."

You 'work' in the Senate ? There's an oxymoron, if ever there was one! C'mon, you're a public servant, and deserve a bit of good natured ribbing. And while you pat yourself on the back for almost 400 new laws passed, ( how COULD we ever survive w/ out more laws? ) , how about dealing w/ the big issues, instead of pandering to the special interest ? That's all I'm saying.

TigerAl, what's the matter ? Feeling neglected? Need to ride someone's coat tails because you can't stand on your own 2 feet? How about saving all that cheerleading talent for Saturday, when uga comes to town. Sheesh !

[CCTAU 3,350]

I think what raptor is insinuating is like this:

My son brings home all A's, he gets a nice pat on the head and a good job. It's what he is supposed to do. Now if he brings home evidence that he won a hard contested educational feat that he really had to work extra on, then that's different. Of those 397 new laws, how many were really busines as usual. What the Amercan public wants to see is lawmakers going the extra mile. Doing out of the ordinary things to get something done. The rest of the working world does this every day at their jobs, why is it too much t ask for them to go above and beyond the norm in order to get some things done. That's all.