The "Obama" thing

[Tigermike 3,053]

[Bottomfeeder 244]

http://www.aunation.net/forums/index.php?s...p;p=entry

[Tigermike 3,053]

Like the cartoon says cute and cuddly.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

That's a serious oversimplification.

[Tigermike 3,053]

We're talking about a cartoon. Also there wasn't a whole lot in the thread he linked to indicate otherwise.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

We're talking about a cartoon with a point...an ill-informed one. And there is plenty out there that Obama has said on various issues to dismiss the notion that he lacks substance. Google is a wonderful thing.

And I'm not defending him because I'm likely to vote for him, though I'd take him over the Hildebeast any day of the week.

[au9596 0]

Nothing to really discuss hear.

IMO there is no way Obama is going to beat out Hillary for the democratic nomination.

The Clintons have the political machine of the democratic party completely behind them.

They will destroy this guy if they have to.

Wait and see.

[rexbo 104]

We're talking about a cartoon with a point...an ill-informed one. And there is plenty out there that Obama has said on various issues to dismiss the notion that he lacks substance. Google is a wonderful thing.

It is his substance which prevents me from voting for him.

Obama has expressed support for elements of neoliberalism, protectionism, and social welfare.

Political_views_of_Barack_Obama

[TitanTiger 20,511]

We're talking about a cartoon with a point...an ill-informed one. And there is plenty out there that Obama has said on various issues to dismiss the notion that he lacks substance. Google is a wonderful thing.

It is his substance which prevents me from voting for him.

And me as well. Though I'll admit it's his stance on abortion and other pro-life issues that troubles me most.

But the point wasn't that you should agree with his views. The point was that whoever drew that cartoon is being disingenuous. Obama is not running off being "cute and cuddly" and other such things that suggest style over substance, though his personality does tend to draw people in to at least give him a listen.

Obama has expressed support for elements of neoliberalism, protectionism, and social welfare.

Political_views_of_Barack_Obama

That article is fine for what it is, but I'd be careful about relying on Wikipedia to give me a full picture of anything, particularly someone's political views.

[aumd03 2]

His desire for universal health care alone would cause me not to vote for him even if I were a liberal. I don't think Americans grasp what a disaster universal health care would be. Just ask canadians.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

His desire for universal health care alone would cause me not to vote for him even if I were a liberal. I don't think Americans grasp what a disaster universal health care would be. Just ask canadians.

Actually a desire for universal health care is not reason enough not to vote for someone in my book. In fact, I think it's a laudable goal, especially from a moral point of view. The devil's in the details however. Someone's got to show me a way of doing it that is better than the Brits or the Canadians and I'm on board. I've seen and known too many hard-working families that either can't afford health care or pay for it but are strapped to do so for the notion not to be in the discussion.

[Tigermike 3,053]

Maybe if you see a couple in sequence it will help.

http://www.gocomics.com/pricklycity/

[aumd03 2]

His desire for universal health care alone would cause me not to vote for him even if I were a liberal. I don't think Americans grasp what a disaster universal health care would be. Just ask canadians.

Actually a desire for universal health care is not reason enough not to vote for someone in my book. In fact, I think it's a laudable goal, especially from a moral point of view. The devil's in the details however. Someone's got to show me a way of doing it that is better than the Brits or the Canadians and I'm on board. I've seen and known too many hard-working families that either can't afford health care or pay for it but are strapped to do so for the notion not to be in the discussion.

We seem to think of health care as a right. It is not. Its interesting how those from other countries or cultures without that belief approach health care.

Well, I don't think its a morality issue. I work in a free clinic because I choose to do so and I want to help those people that fall through the cracks, but I don't think those that don't join me immoral. Medicine costs are inflated because everyone else negotiating for drug prices, but we don't, so the cost of R&D gets passed along to us. And our trial lawyers have complicated the issue as well. I'm sure we all remember the flu shot shortage because lawsuits cost the companies more than the profit margin on flu shots. Universal health care has to equal government controlled and deligated health care. And you have to realize, some people won't take advantage of health care even when offered to them, just because of personal issues. I can't count hte number of homeless patients that leave AMA because they need a drink. Or patients that refuse surgery to get vitamin treatments that come back later with a much more severe situation. Don't think that when you are mandated to have insurance, then you will be mandated as far as the treatment you will or won't recieve.

I have a friend that was a FP in Canada. She told me stories of patients being caught with primary tumors, but having to wait so long to see a surgeon, they developed metastasis in the meantime. Or of people with a need for joint replacements waiting years. Basically, they have so short staffed themselves with specialities, all the specialists can deal with is emergencies.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

If we would stop supporting Israel, and other countries with our tax money, then maybe we could start taking care of our own, you know like the military does. I say take care of Americans first, let the rest find their own democracy at their own cost. Just like we did.

[aumd03 2]

If we would stop supporting Israel, and other countries with our tax money, then maybe we could start taking care of our own, you know like the military does. I say take care of Americans first, let the rest find their own democracy at their own cost. Just like we did.

Tax money that we have only because "Ray-gun" as you so indignently call him, saved our economy from the depths that the Carter administration put it in. Of course, Carter thinks the Israelis are the evil terrorists.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

They are evil terrorists. Heck, they are Africans that have DNA closer to the original Israelites, than those presently occupying Israel. Give me a break already. If the Israelis are protected by God, then why arm them?

[TitanTiger 20,511]

We seem to think of health care as a right. It is not. Its interesting how those from other countries or cultures without that belief approach health care.

Actually, that's the reason things are the way they are. We don't view it as a right. We view it as a privilege. Being a Christian, I have a hard time thinking that if Jesus were walking the earth today in America and this question were put to Him, He'd say, "Yeah, health care is a privilege for those who can afford to pay for it. Even if you work hard and don't waste your money on frivolous stuff. You get sick? Tough. Shoulda made more money."

Driving a Lexus? Privilege. Having hi-speed internet and HDTV? Privilege. Living in a 3000 square foot home? Privilege. Being able to have health care without strapping your family or filing for bankruptcy if something catastrophic happens? Nuh-uh. I think it's a moral right. How we figure out how to do it is up for discussion but I think it's something we should work toward.

Well, I don't think its a morality issue. I work in a free clinic because I choose to do so and I want to help those people that fall through the cracks, but I don't think those that don't join me immoral. Medicine costs are inflated because everyone else negotiating for drug prices, but we don't, so the cost of R&D gets passed along to us. And our trial lawyers have complicated the issue as well. I'm sure we all remember the flu shot shortage because lawsuits cost the companies more than the profit margin on flu shots. Universal health care has to equal government controlled and deligated health care. And you have to realize, some people won't take advantage of health care even when offered to them, just because of personal issues. I can't count the number of homeless patients that leave AMA because they need a drink. Or patients that refuse surgery to get vitamin treatments that come back later with a much more severe situation. Don't think that when you are mandated to have insurance, then you will be mandated as far as the treatment you will or won't recieve.

I have a friend that was a FP in Canada. She told me stories of patients being caught with primary tumors, but having to wait so long to see a surgeon, they developed metastasis in the meantime. Or of people with a need for joint replacements waiting years. Basically, they have so short staffed themselves with specialities, all the specialists can deal with is emergencies.

Again, we've got to get out of the box of Britain and Canada and figure out a better way to do it. I'm open to all manner of private and public partnerships to figure out a way to do it. But I see no reason to scrap a concept simply because it's been done poorly elsewhere.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Stop spending so damn much money on defense.

[aumd03 2]

We seem to think of health care as a right. It is not. Its interesting how those from other countries or cultures without that belief approach health care.

Actually, that's the reason things are the way they are. We don't view it as a right. We view it as a privilege. Being a Christian, I have a hard time thinking that if Jesus were walking the earth today in America and this question were put to Him, He'd say, "Yeah, health care is a privilege for those who can afford to pay for it. Even if you work hard and don't waste your money on frivolous stuff. You get sick? Tough. Shoulda made more money."

Driving a Lexus? Privilege. Having hi-speed internet and HDTV? Privilege. Living in a 3000 square foot home? Privilege. Being able to have health care without strapping your family or filing for bankruptcy if something catastrophic happens? Nuh-uh. I think it's a moral right. How we figure out how to do it is up for discussion but I think it's something we should work toward.

Well, I don't think its a morality issue. I work in a free clinic because I choose to do so and I want to help those people that fall through the cracks, but I don't think those that don't join me immoral. Medicine costs are inflated because everyone else negotiating for drug prices, but we don't, so the cost of R&D gets passed along to us. And our trial lawyers have complicated the issue as well. I'm sure we all remember the flu shot shortage because lawsuits cost the companies more than the profit margin on flu shots. Universal health care has to equal government controlled and deligated health care. And you have to realize, some people won't take advantage of health care even when offered to them, just because of personal issues. I can't count the number of homeless patients that leave AMA because they need a drink. Or patients that refuse surgery to get vitamin treatments that come back later with a much more severe situation. Don't think that when you are mandated to have insurance, then you will be mandated as far as the treatment you will or won't recieve.

I have a friend that was a FP in Canada. She told me stories of patients being caught with primary tumors, but having to wait so long to see a surgeon, they developed metastasis in the meantime. Or of people with a need for joint replacements waiting years. Basically, they have so short staffed themselves with specialities, all the specialists can deal with is emergencies.

Again, we've got to get out of the box of Britain and Canada and figure out a better way to do it. I'm open to all manner of private and public partnerships to figure out a way to do it. But I see no reason to scrap a concept simply because it's been done poorly elsewhere.

See, we are missing the boat in healthcare. Being homeless is detrimental to your health. Giving them a home would be more beneficial than giving them free healthcare. And everyone does essentially have health care in this country. If a person shows up to a public hospital they won't be turned away. I've treated plenty of homeless people. Just this past week, I saw a man that had burns after falling into a fire where he was staying warm at a homeless camp in the woods. He was drunk of course, but regardless of his financial situation, or social status, he recieved quality care. All kids are covered by medicaid. There are uninsured, but there aren't those not recieving care when needed. Do i think going out and finding the top specialist in your field is a priviledge? yes. But recieving basic care isn't, and not many go without it.

When i mentioned other cultures. Believe it or not, Hispanics will often take up money to pay at least part of their bill. And I've seen Minonites (sp?) take up a collection and pay an entire bill in cash on the spot. And the hispanics will show up when pregnant right before they deliver, and will leave after a day. Some of our "paying" customers basically have to be shoved out the door.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

And everyone does essentially have health care in this country. If a person shows up to a public hospital they won't be turned away.

Don't kid yourself...

Paraplegic allegedly 'dumped' on skid row

L.A. police say man was dropped off in front of dozens of witnesses by van linked to Hollywood Presbyterian hospital.

By Andrew Blankstein and Richard Winton, Times Staff Writers

February 9, 2007

A paraplegic man wearing a soiled hospital gown and a broken colostomy bag was found crawling in a gutter in skid row in Los Angeles on Thursday after allegedly being dumped in the street by a Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center van, police said.

The incident, witnessed by more than two dozen people, was described by police as a particularly outrageous case of "homeless dumping" that has plagued the downtown area.

"I can't think of anything colder than that," said LAPD Det. Russ Long, who called the case the most egregious of its kind that he has seen in his career. "There was no mission around, no services. It's the worst area of skid row."

Los Angeles Police Department detectives said they connected the van to Hollywood Presbyterian after witnesses wrote down a phone number on the van and took down its license-plate number.

They are questioning officials from the hospital, which the LAPD had accused in an earlier dumping case that is now under investigation.

Witnesses shouted at the female driver of the van, "Where's his wheelchair, where's his walker?"

Gary Lett, an employee at Gladys Park, near where the incident occurred, said the woman driving the van didn't reply, but proceeded to apply makeup and perfume before driving off.

"She didn't make any attempt to help him," Lett said. "He was in bad shape. He was incoherent."

Kaylor Shemberger, executive vice president for Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center, said, "Obviously we are very concerned about the information that has been presented to us. We are continuing to investigate the incident. If some of the facts are correct, it is clearly not in line with our policy of handling these types of patients."

When the hospital was previously accused of dumping in 2005, a top executive said the facility takes discharged patients to Los Angeles Mission at their request.

The case comes three months after the L.A. city attorney's office filed the first indictment for homeless dumping against Kaiser Permanente. The charges stem from an incident earlier last year when a 63-year-old patient from Kaiser Permanente's Bellflower medical center was videotaped as she stepped from a taxi in gown and socks and then wandered the streets of skid row.

Los Angeles officials have accused more than a dozen hospitals, as well as some outside law enforcement agencies, of dumping patients and criminals on downtown's troubled skid row. The city attorney's office said it was considering filing charges against several other medical facilities.

Police describe the homeless people who congregate around Gladys Park, in the heart of skid row, as a tough crowd who have seen much and say little.

But there was no shortage of people willing to describe what they saw about 10:45 a.m. Thursday morning, when the white hospital van pulled up several feet from the curb.

"They were lining up to give their story," Long said. "They were collectively appalled. We were as shocked as the homeless folks."

Witnesses told police that the man propped himself up in the door of the van. He then hurled himself from the vehicle, tumbling to the street. He pulled himself along, dragging a bag of his belongings in his clenched teeth.

Police said several people began shouting at the driver, who in addition to applying makeup was more concerned that the seats of the van had been soiled, investigators said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-du...-home-headlines

[aumd03 2]

So you extrapolate that to think that happens everywhere? There are bad apples in every group. Come on, you keep giving me anecdotal stories of bad things happening. It doesn't mean it occurs everywhere. You don't think things would be worse in a universal health care system? Then all of us would get passed over. Just go ask that Canadian with breast CA that has bone metastatis because she couldn't get her mastectomy soon enough. It would be done within a week or two here.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

So you extrapolate that to think that happens everywhere? There are bad apples in every group. Come on, you keep giving me anecdotal stories of bad things happening. It doesn't mean it occurs everywhere. You don't think things would be worse in a universal health care system? Then all of us would get passed over. Just go ask that Canadian with breast CA that has bone metastatis because she couldn't get her mastectomy soon enough. It would be done within a week or two here.

You extrapolated and asserted that "everyone" gets care regardless of ability to pay. I was simply pointing out the naivete of your thinking.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

And it doesn't even have to be that extreme. I've had friends that struggled to pay for health care even though they were hard working college-educated people. Some could only afford to cover their kids, but not themselves. Others owned their own business and struggled to supply their employees access to even a very basic plan. And the costs go up every year. There's got to be a better way.

[RadioWryn 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-MYq2TZ73Q

[Bottomfeeder 244]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-MYq2TZ73Q

It's not a silly question anymore. People have this God given ability to change their minds, that is what makes us human.