Just When The Administration Couldn't Get Any Dumber

[otterinbham 0]

Mind you, this is not some wide-eyed leftist journal. This is the London Times for crying out loud. What's more, we're not talking about terrorists here, but people who might be wanted on charges of tax evasion. Are we just going out of our way to destroy our international standing? Basically, we're now willing to stoop to the level of North Korea.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle2982640.ece

US says it has right to kidnap British citizens

David Leppard

AMERICA has told Britain that it can “kidnap” British citizens if they are wanted for crimes in the United States.

A senior lawyer for the American government has told the Court of Appeal in London that kidnapping foreign citizens is permissible under American law because the US Supreme Court has sanctioned it.

The admission will alarm the British business community after the case of the so-called NatWest Three, bankers who were extradited to America on fraud charges. More than a dozen other British executives, including senior managers at British Airways and BAE Systems, are under investigation by the US authorities and could face criminal charges in America.

Until now it was commonly assumed that US law permitted kidnapping only in the “extraordinary rendition” of terrorist suspects.

Legal experts confirmed this weekend that America viewed extradition as just one way of getting foreign suspects back to face trial. Rendition, or kidnapping, dates back to 19th-century bounty hunting and Washington believes it is still legitimate.

The US government’s view emerged during a hearing involving Stanley Tollman, a former director of Chelsea football club and a friend of Baroness Thatcher, and his wife Beatrice.

The Tollmans, who control the Red Carnation hotel group and are resident in London, are wanted in America for bank fraud and tax evasion. They have been fighting extradition through the British courts.

During a hearing last month Lord Justice Moses, one of the Court of Appeal judges, asked Alun Jones QC, representing the US government, about its treatment of Gavin, Tollman’s nephew. Gavin Tollman was the subject of an attempted abduction during a visit to Canada in 2005.

Jones replied that it was acceptable under American law to kidnap people if they were wanted for offences in America. “The United States does have a view about procuring people to its own shores which is not shared,” he said.

He said that if a person was kidnapped by the US authorities in another country and was brought back to face charges in America, no US court could rule that the abduction was illegal and free him: “If you kidnap a person outside the United States and you bring him there, the court has no jurisdiction to refuse — it goes back to bounty hunting days in the 1860s.”

Mr Justice Ouseley, a second judge, challenged Jones to be “honest about [his] position”.

Jones replied: “That is United States law.”

He cited the case of Humberto Alvarez Machain, a suspect who was abducted by the US government at his medical office in Guadalajara, Mexico, in 1990. He was flown by Drug Enforcement Administration agents to Texas for criminal prosecution.

Although there was an extradition treaty in place between America and Mexico at the time — as there currently is between the United States and Britain — the Supreme Court ruled in 1992 that the Mexican had no legal remedy because of his abduction.

In 2005, Gavin Tollman, the head of Trafalgar Tours, a holiday company, had arrived in Toronto by plane when he was arrested by Canadian immigration authorities.

An American prosecutor, who had tried and failed to extradite him from Britain, persuaded Canadian officials to detain him. He wanted the Canadians to drive Tollman to the border to be handed over. Tollman was escorted in handcuffs from the aircraft in Toronto, taken to prison and held for 10 days.

A Canadian judge ordered his release, ruling that the US Justice Department had set a “sinister trap” and wrongly bypassed extradition rules. Tollman returned to Britain.

Legal sources said that under traditional American justice, rendition meant capturing wanted people abroad and bringing them to the United States. The term “extraordinary rendition” was coined in the 1990s for the kidnapping of terror suspects from one foreign country to another for interrogation.

There was concern this weekend from Patrick Mercer, the Tory MP, who said: “The very idea of kidnapping is repugnant to us and we must handle these cases with extreme caution and a thorough understanding of the implications in American law.”

Shami Chakrabarti, director of the human rights group Liberty, said: “This law may date back to bounty hunting days, but they should sort it out if they claim to be a civilised nation.”

The US Justice Department declined to comment.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Well good, then Germany can kidnap Rummy, and Iceland can kidnap GHWB. Crimes against humanity is far worse than tax evasion, IMHO.

http://www.williambowles.info/iraq/2006/07...al_charges.html

Reykjavik, Iceland (3 July 2006) – A group of ten Icelandic citizens filed yesterday at the Office of the State’s Police Chief criminal charges against George H.W. Bush, former U.S. President, who is expected in Iceland this evening at the invitation of Icelands’s President Olafur R. Grimsson.

The group accuses former President Bush for participation in war crimes, crimes against humanity...

George H.W. Bush is charged of initiating a war of aggression against Panama in 1989 ... is furthermore charged for his command responsibility for the multiple war crimes committed by US forces in the Gulf War in 1991, including the policy of deliberately bombing civilian targets and the massacre of soldiers hors combat...

Just days after his resignation, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is about to face more repercussions for his involvement in the troubled wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. New legal documents, to be filed next week with Germany's top prosecutor, will seek a criminal investigation and prosecution of Rumsfeld, along with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA director George Tenet and other senior U.S. civilian and military officers, for their alleged roles in abuses committed at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...1557842,00.html

[TitanTiger 20,511]

This is just getting embarrassing.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

The sadest part is the American people elected these clowns in office, twice. Third party candidates have virtually no chance of being elected into office. I'm not sure if it really matters which party is in office, because the same unconstitutional legislation goes forward no matter what. Call me a conspiracy nutjob or whatever, but these guys are an extension of the elite who want nothing more than to rule the entire planet and reduce the population to a manageable size. Everything from the RFID to gun control. The UN mandates include disarming the people.

All demoRATS:

H.R. 256 - a bill introduced by Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee of Texas that could send YOU to federal prison if a criminal steals your guns and uses them in a crime.

S. 1237 - a bill introduced by Senator Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey that would give the Attorney General the power to put your name on a secret government list and ban you from buying a firearm forever.

H.R. 2666 - a bill introduced by Rep. Bobby Rush of Illinois forcing every American handgun owner, as well as millions of rifle and shotgun owners, to be photographed, fingerprinted, licensed, and tested by the government, or else turn in their guns.

This is not what our founding father invisioned. There is hope though.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

[otterinbham 0]

This is just getting embarrassing.

No kidding. So basically, anybody, anywhere on the planet who gets into dutch with the Federal government on any issue can get kidnapped and whisked away back to our country, without due process and without consultations to the other countries.

And, lest you argue that this has been going for some time, I want you to look at the revised scope of what's now fair game. Terrorists have always fallen under the purview of intelligence gathering and espionage. Nabbing a drug lord is almost always with the tacit cooperation of the country, where the ability to arrest and prosecute is very limited. But tax evasion? Are you kidding me?

Did these idiots ever think about about reciprocity? Hey, some CIA agents are under indictment in Italian courts for some such statute. What's to prevent Italy from kidnapping them and bringing them to Rome for trial? Can you imagine in how many ways this can be turned around on us?

[AURaptor 1,126]

We're the US. About time we started acting like the big dog in the pack. BF, Germany et all can try to get Rummy, but there's been no crimes against Humanity committed by them. Instead, we should expect the rest of the world to priase our efforts to put down the Islamo-Jihadist movement. Nobel Peace Prize would be more appropriate.

Any other countrys want to try that on us ? Let'em try.

[TexasTiger 13,029]

We're the US. About time we started acting like the big dog in the pack. BF, Germany et all can try to get Rummy, but there's been no crimes against Humanity committed by them. Instead, we should expect the rest of the world to priase our efforts to put down the Islamo-Jihadist movement. Nobel Peace Prize would be more appropriate.

Any other countrys want to try that on us ? Let'em try.

[AURaptor 1,126]

We're the US. About time we started acting like the big dog in the pack. BF, Germany et all can try to get Rummy, but there's been no crimes against Humanity committed by them. Instead, we should expect the rest of the world to priase our efforts to put down the Islamo-Jihadist movement. Nobel Peace Prize would be more appropriate.

Any other countrys want to try that on us ? Let'em try.

Hey, somebody has to be the lead dog. Why shouldn't it be us ? Do you prefer a world painted by the Chi-Comms? Islamo-nutjobs ? Or us ?

I'll pick us, thank you very much

[TexasTiger 13,029]

We're the US. About time we started acting like the big dog in the pack. BF, Germany et all can try to get Rummy, but there's been no crimes against Humanity committed by them. Instead, we should expect the rest of the world to priase our efforts to put down the Islamo-Jihadist movement. Nobel Peace Prize would be more appropriate.

Any other countrys want to try that on us ? Let'em try.

Hey, somebody has to be the lead dog. Why shouldn't it be us ? Do you prefer a world painted by the Chi-Comms? Islamo-nutjobs ? Or us ?

I'll pick us, thank you very much

I think we should lead. You don't understand what leadership is, though. If you really wanted to spread democracy and morality, you wouldn't take the "we can do whatever we want when we want because we're the big buy routine."

[channonc 466]

We're the US. About time we started acting like the big dog in the pack. BF, Germany et all can try to get Rummy, but there's been no crimes against Humanity committed by them. Instead, we should expect the rest of the world to priase our efforts to put down the Islamo-Jihadist movement. Nobel Peace Prize would be more appropriate.

Any other countrys want to try that on us ? Let'em try.

I am not sure which is more embarrassing: the article or your response.

[otterinbham 0]

We're the US. About time we started acting like the big dog in the pack. BF, Germany et all can try to get Rummy, but there's been no crimes against Humanity committed by them. Instead, we should expect the rest of the world to priase our efforts to put down the Islamo-Jihadist movement. Nobel Peace Prize would be more appropriate.

Any other countrys want to try that on us ? Let'em try.

It would be really nice if you'd actually read the article rather than offer a kneejerk response. This is why we have extradition treaties--a recognition that other countries have sovereign rights in their own territory. Essentially by endorsing these kinds of actions, you're saying the United States can do anything they want to at any time in any place on the planet.

I know it's a satisfying posture for about a second, especially if you watch nothing more than a steady diet of Chuck Norris movies. Then the consequences begin making themselves evident. Such as the increasing resistance other countries will begin to have to even our legitimate law enforcement efforts. Or the lack of moral credibility in the world. That, not force, is how we've maintained our leadership position in the world since the end of the Second World War. Essentially, by expressing our willingness to stoop to the same tactics at the North Koreans and the KGB, you're telling the world that we're roughly equivalent to those countries.

Then, of course, we have the nightmarish situation of other countries kidnapping our own citizens and shipping them back for trial on the vague, catch-all "crimes against humanity" charges. Essentially, by adopting this position, we essentially give about 100 different countries carte blanche to kidnap Donald Rumsfeld and take him to their courts for a show trial.

What's more, given that we're a land of political refugees, it tells every totalitarian country that their dissidents are fair game in this country. After all, the Dalai Lama remains a Chinese citizen. So if the Chinese capture him in San Francisco and ship him home, then it's fair game. After all, we do the same thing, right?

[RunInRed 16,492]

This Administration will easily go down as one of the worst our Country has ever seen.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

We're the US. About time we started acting like the big dog in the pack. BF, Germany et all can try to get Rummy, but there's been no crimes against Humanity committed by them. Instead, we should expect the rest of the world to priase our efforts to put down the Islamo-Jihadist movement. Nobel Peace Prize would be more appropriate.

Any other countrys want to try that on us ? Let'em try.

Hands down: Dumbest thing you've ever posted here.

[otterinbham 0]

We're the US. About time we started acting like the big dog in the pack. BF, Germany et all can try to get Rummy, but there's been no crimes against Humanity committed by them. Instead, we should expect the rest of the world to priase our efforts to put down the Islamo-Jihadist movement. Nobel Peace Prize would be more appropriate.

Any other countrys want to try that on us ? Let'em try.

Hands down: Dumbest thing you've ever posted here.

He must be drunk. Or just returned from watching the latest Rambo flick.

[CCTAU 3,350]

I don't mind us doing it. Just don't admit to it and don't get caught doing it. Like the good ole days of the cold war.......

As a policy, we should reject it. As reality, tough call.

[otterinbham 0]

I don't mind us doing it. Just don't admit to it and don't get caught doing it. Like the good ole days of the cold war.......

As a policy, we should reject it. As reality, tough call.

Oh, we're not talking about hustling the occasional spy here. We're abducting Myron Lefkowitz from Denmark or New Zealand or whereever for tax evasion, breaking dozens of local laws and ignoring our extradition treaties in the process. How exactly do you think this would remain quiet?

What's more, we would be pissing off the national law enforcement in countries that we need the most in the ongoing fight against Islamic terrorism. Aside from the sheer illegality of it, it's pretty short-sighted if you ask me.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

The myopia of those who think this is a good idea is stunning.