Michael Sams coming out party

[AUFAN78 3,912]

Great point.....your first. Instead of simply vacationing in Costa Rica, I think I should consider moving there. Permanently. They need an AU Chapter.

[AUFAN78 3,912]

I was agnostic for the vast majority of my life, and only came to Christianity through a deeper understanding of several sciences such as the complexity of dna, information not coming from randomness, hundreds of "goldilocks zones" in physics that would not allow life if the values were slightly different, codes and patterns in the Bible indicating it was written outside of the time domain, string theory and quantum mechanics, and many others leading to an issue of probability.

Its all just how you look at it, and of course how deeply you look at what you look at.

There's a lot of unique perspective here. I was raised Methodist, identified as a strong atheist for a decade or so, fell in love with a Jehovah's Witness (strange bunch, those Witnesses), married her, found my way back to The Lord and we will soon be practicing Catholics. I'm a rationalist at heart, but I'm able to reconcile that with my faith. I may disagree with my atheist friends, but understand the logic behind their conclusions.

Of all that story, the part I am most curious about is you going from Methodist and her from JW to Catholics. I will admit: I don't believe any of it, but there is something very special about Mass, especially in an old old church. Roman Catholics have cornered the market on gravitas.

I also adore Russian choral church music, Renaissance choral music from Italy, Spain, and England, and candlelit Christmas Eve services for the same reason.

shocking

[Auctoritas 2,828]

Great point.....your first. Instead of simply vacationing in Costa Rica, I think I should consider moving there. Permanently. They need an AU Chapter.

Ah, but I love America. So much so that I utilized our fine judicial system to protect the rights of myself and many others. I also was in the Air Force.

So...tell me how Costa Rica is when you get settled, hmm?

[AUFAN78 3,912]

Great point.....your first. Instead of simply vacationing in Costa Rica, I think I should consider moving there. Permanently. They need an AU Chapter.

Ah, but I love America. So much so that I utilized our fine judicial system to protect the rights of myself and many others. I also was in the Air Force.

So...tell me how Costa Rica is when you get settled, hmm?

Thanks for the clarification. I would have guessed Navy.

[Auctoritas 2,828]

Great point.....your first. Instead of simply vacationing in Costa Rica, I think I should consider moving there. Permanently. They need an AU Chapter.

Ah, but I love America. So much so that I utilized our fine judicial system to protect the rights of myself and many others. I also was in the Air Force.

So...tell me how Costa Rica is when you get settled, hmm?

Thanks for the clarification. I would have guessed Navy.

So! You'd like to go ahead and add one of our proud branches of the service to your list of misguided attacks?

I figured you'd have a little more decorum and decency, especially when we're in a thread talking about heroic or courageous acts.

Btw, been married to a lovely lady for 7 years and have a beautiful daughter. I find it odd that you'd just lump anyone that disagrees with you into this amorphous liberal-gay-atheist-nonwhite blob that's terrorizing your country.

Then again, maybe not so surprising after all.

[AUFAN78 3,912]

Great point.....your first. Instead of simply vacationing in Costa Rica, I think I should consider moving there. Permanently. They need an AU Chapter.

Ah, but I love America. So much so that I utilized our fine judicial system to protect the rights of myself and many others. I also was in the Air Force.

So...tell me how Costa Rica is when you get settled, hmm?

Thanks for the clarification. I would have guessed Navy.

So! You'd like to go ahead and add one of our proud branches of the service to your list of misguided attacks?

I figured you'd have a little more decorum and decency, especially when we're in a thread talking about heroic or courageous acts.

Btw, been married to a lovely lady for 7 years and have a beautiful daughter. I find it odd that you'd just lump anyone that disagrees with you into this amorphous liberal-gay-atheist-nonwhite blob that's terrorizing your country.

Then again, maybe not so surprising after all.

Remember, it was you that responded to MY post. Careful...........

Until you know me and my past, you'd be wise to refrain from the decorum and decency commentary.

The amorphous liberal-gay-athesit-nonehite blob is your reference not mine. Don't lump me with your ilk or any other.

Now what is it exactly I disagee with?

BTW, I married a beauty queen and have two children. Word.

[AUinWV 0]

WAR EAGLE pplz!!

(not yelling, just a very loud bonjour)

^ok... probably pointless post #27, but still. I liked it.

[NoALtiger 3,867]

I must be outta the loop, never heard of this guy.

Yeah, you are.

Ha, thanks but I figured that out a couple pages ago.

[PowerOfDixieland 3,226]

Okay, fresh perspective with a day off from posting on this topic.

This requires some setup, with every detail being actual and first hand. Followed by a question, and remember this is not hypothetical.

We built the house we currently live in (NW of Atlanta) twelve years ago, my children were 5 and 3 at the time. We had lived in our first home in the same area for about seven years. My wife really loved the large development we ultimately built in, and as the neighborhood was nearing completion we found a lot we loved which tied us to a particular builder. About thirty days into the process we found out that the builder was trans-gender and had gone through reassignment surgery a couple of years prior to our involvement with (now) her. We found the builder to be very qualified, holding an engineering degree from Georgia Tech and actually lived in the neighborhood. After we moved into the house we found that she was very involved in the community, holding positions on the homeowners association and the like. She was so open and involved that she would come to the community pool in a bikini. By the way, we love the house and have never had any issues with it.

My question to the regulars on this thread, is he/she heroic in her "courageous" activities or simply a freak show?

http://www.christine...utchristine.htm

[Scottie 124]

Since this is turning into a shizon show, I am just going to drop this out there:

http://twentytwowords.com/dallas-sportscasters-shocking-response-to-michael-sam-coming-out-as-gay/

[Auctoritas 2,828]

PoD, I think anytime someone undergoes that much pain and transformation and sees it through to the end, despite (and I am making assumptions here) people not understanding or accepting what they are doing, has performed a courageous act. And, I do not think she's "simply" a freak show - She seems to be as talented, smart, and engaged as she was before she became a she.

Consider the other options - Either she could have given up and not gone through with it, or, maybe she could have gone through with it but in order to save face, she could have moved to an entirely new area where nobody knew who she was and started over completely. Either one of those options would have been "easier," but she chose the option that had to be the most personally disruptive. Again, I'm not saying that it's on the level of running into a burning building, but, to me, what she chose to do took a great amount of courage.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Okay, fresh perspective with a day off from posting on this topic.

This requires some setup, with every detail being actual and first hand. Followed by a question, and remember this is not hypothetical.

We built the house we currently live in (NW of Atlanta) twelve years ago, my children were 5 and 3 at the time. We had lived in our first home in the same area for about seven years. My wife really loved the large development we ultimately built in, and as the neighborhood was nearing completion we found a lot we loved which tied us to a particular builder. About thirty days into the process we found out that the builder was trans-gender and had gone through reassignment surgery a couple of years prior to our involvement with (now) her. We found the builder to be very qualified, holding an engineering degree from Georgia Tech and actually lived in the neighborhood. After we moved into the house we found that she was very involved in the community, holding positions on the homeowners association and the like. She was so open and involved that she would come to the community pool in a bikini. By the way, we love the house and have never had any issues with it.

My question to the regulars on this thread, is he/she heroic in her "courageous" activities or simply a freak show?

http://www.christine...utchristine.htm

I dont get the need to label people's choices in life. I see this through the prism of not being able to make a judgement until I've walked a mile in the persons shoes whose being judged. That said, I do not see this choice as heroic. Being self destructive does not constitute heroism. Admittedly, I dont understand someone being so miserable with their lives that they honestly believe a sex change is going to make it all better because it can certainly complicate things beyond the point of no return

Years ago I was watching TV one afternoon when Geraldo Rivera had his show which was nothing more than an ugly reflection of pop culture. As I scrolled through the channels I came upon his show and I was intrigued by his panel of guests which was about a dozen men who had all had sex change operations and they all had one thing in common..they regretted having the operation which at that time wasn't reversible. It may be now, I haven't kept up with medical technology on that particular front.

The point is, people do things for different reasons and sometimes it works out for them and sometimes it doesn't. I don't see how making these kind of choices can be judged from afar but people do need to judge, just look at the question Im responding to. In my life I've had relatively frequent contact(tenants) with several transvestites ie "women trapped in men's bodies" and, I would be less than honest if I didn't say it all seems sort of freakish to me but that's not really relevant. At this time, people in America have the right to the pursuit of happiness. If that's what does it for them, who is anyone else too pass judgement on them? The inconvenient fact is, though, it doesn't do it for many once the change is taken to its fullest extent.

So, I dont mind saying, I do get tired of seeing attempts to prop these folks up to hero status. Cultural decline in America is in full speed descent if these are the new parameters of heroism. it is what it is and, ultimately, people are going to do exactly what they want to do..everything and everybody else be damned.

[AUDub 11,158]

Of all that story, the part I am most curious about is you going from Methodist and her from JW to Catholics. I will admit: I don't believe any of it, but there is something very special about Mass, especially in an old old church. Roman Catholics have cornered the market on gravitas.

I also adore Russian choral church music, Renaissance choral music from Italy, Spain, and England, and candlelit Christmas Eve services for the same reason.

She was raised Catholic and became a Witness after college. She remained a Witness until I came along and was disfellowshipped for loving a "worldly" man. Her shunning continues. If she runs in to any of her former congregation, they won't say a word to her. You should see how they look at me!

I'm not a fan of the witnesses. They're always prepping for the end times, and the exclusive and rigid nature of that particular faith strikes me as very un-Christian.

[Auctoritas 2,828]

Okay, fresh perspective with a day off from posting on this topic.

This requires some setup, with every detail being actual and first hand. Followed by a question, and remember this is not hypothetical.

We built the house we currently live in (NW of Atlanta) twelve years ago, my children were 5 and 3 at the time. We had lived in our first home in the same area for about seven years. My wife really loved the large development we ultimately built in, and as the neighborhood was nearing completion we found a lot we loved which tied us to a particular builder. About thirty days into the process we found out that the builder was trans-gender and had gone through reassignment surgery a couple of years prior to our involvement with (now) her. We found the builder to be very qualified, holding an engineering degree from Georgia Tech and actually lived in the neighborhood. After we moved into the house we found that she was very involved in the community, holding positions on the homeowners association and the like. She was so open and involved that she would come to the community pool in a bikini. By the way, we love the house and have never had any issues with it.

My question to the regulars on this thread, is he/she heroic in her "courageous" activities or simply a freak show?

http://www.christine...utchristine.htm

The inconvenient fact is, though, it doesn't do it for many once the change is taken to its fullest extent.

That's not an inconvenient "fact", and it is hardly a data point considering your only source was an episode of the Geraldo Rivera show. If you really think that's the case, that there have only been maybe 15 people ever to get a sex change, and 12 of them were on Geraldo, therefore it doesn't work for "many"...I don't even know what to say.

You're making a categorical conclusion that it doesn't make "many" happy, and I think it's one that's demonstrably wrong. Data from 2004ish trumpeted that this was the case, but at best, the research was a qualitative meta-analysis review of the other research. It came up with a number that "up to one-fifth" regret the change.

Of course, the other 4/5ths feel fine about it. At best the data is inconclusive, and many of the reviewed studies were...to put it lightly, not well done. Also, that's 10 years ago. I think we could all agree, whether you perceive it positively or negatively, there is a magnitude of difference between the acceptance of that 10 years ago and the societal acceptance today. (BTW, the surgery IS reversible to some great extent)

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but don't draw sweeping factual conclusions based on them without well-researched data. On the grand totem-pole of research validity, personal or anecdotal experience is literally 1 step from the bottom.

I will also point out that you say "I don't judge" and then proceeded to make statements of judgement - for instance, you categorize what most people who undergo the surgery would call "positive", and you call it "self-destructive." Saying "Cultural decline in America is in full speed descent if these are the new parameters of heroism," likewise is a value judgement.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Okay, fresh perspective with a day off from posting on this topic.

This requires some setup, with every detail being actual and first hand. Followed by a question, and remember this is not hypothetical.

We built the house we currently live in (NW of Atlanta) twelve years ago, my children were 5 and 3 at the time. We had lived in our first home in the same area for about seven years. My wife really loved the large development we ultimately built in, and as the neighborhood was nearing completion we found a lot we loved which tied us to a particular builder. About thirty days into the process we found out that the builder was trans-gender and had gone through reassignment surgery a couple of years prior to our involvement with (now) her. We found the builder to be very qualified, holding an engineering degree from Georgia Tech and actually lived in the neighborhood. After we moved into the house we found that she was very involved in the community, holding positions on the homeowners association and the like. She was so open and involved that she would come to the community pool in a bikini. By the way, we love the house and have never had any issues with it.

My question to the regulars on this thread, is he/she heroic in her "courageous" activities or simply a freak show?

http://www.christine...utchristine.htm

The inconvenient fact is, though, it doesn't do it for many once the change is taken to its fullest extent.

That's not an inconvenient "fact", and it is hardly a data point considering your only source was an episode of the Geraldo Rivera show. If you really think that's the case, that there have only been maybe 15 people ever to get a sex change, and 12 of them were on Geraldo, therefore it doesn't work for "many"...I don't even know what to say.

You're making a categorical conclusion that it doesn't make "many" happy, and I think it's one that's demonstrably wrong. Data from 2004ish trumpeted that this was the case, but at best, the research was a qualitative meta-analysis review of the other research. It came up with a number that "up to one-fifth" regret the change.

Of course, the other 4/5ths feel fine about it. At best the data is inconclusive, and many of the reviewed studies were...to put it lightly, not well done. Also, that's 10 years ago. I think we could all agree, whether you perceive it positively or negatively, there is a magnitude of difference between the acceptance of that 10 years ago and the societal acceptance today. (BTW, the surgery IS reversible to some great extent)

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but don't draw sweeping factual conclusions based on them without well-researched data. On the grand totem-pole of research validity, personal or anecdotal experience is literally 1 step from the bottom.

I will also point out that you say "I don't judge" and then proceeded to make statements of judgement - for instance, you categorize what most people who undergo the surgery would call "positive", and you call it "self-destructive." Saying "Cultural decline in America is in full speed descent if these are the new parameters of heroism," likewise is a value judgement.

I responded to a question, that ASKED for a response, with an opinion that obviously doesn't sit well with you and you try to assume the superior position by suggesting only 15 people have had sex change operations? You cannot be serious? Anyway, I dont have the time nor even the mildest passing inclination to debate this topic with you because my opinion is not debatable. It is based, to some degree, on personal experiences that I wonder how much of you actually have yourself,. In any event, if you wish to call these people heroes, have at it. I dont and never will but I wont resort to attempting to discredit you just because i disagree with you. In fact, we dont agree on anything and I see no need for you to even respond to any of my posts and I'll be happy to return that same consideration to you. If you dont think it is self destructive to have your genitals removed there is not much else i can add to help in this conversation.

Not ashamed of what I value, not in the least!

[DKW 86 7,431]

God didn't give the law until the Israelites demanded it at Mt. Sinai. Until that point, they were under the Abrahamic Covenant of grace. Throughout their journey through the desert, they lived under grace. The Israelites demands that they be given a set of rules to live by is the reason that God gave them what they demanded. And God, knowing that we could never fulfill the law, sent Jesus to fulfill it. God's law is perfectly just, and he never intended us to be bound by strict rules and a sacrificial system. He intended us to live in absolute perfect freedom walking with Him without fear of judgment.

Thanks, that was about perfect.

The OT was there to show us that we cannot live by the law. We will fail every time. The OT Jews failed and had to resort to the sacrifice.

But they eventually learned that they had to have a supply of cows, goats, birds, grains, etc around to deal with their inevitably falling short.

That was the purpose of the OT, it was to show these crazy "self righteous" people that they were just as big a screw ups as the rest of us are.

Jesus gets you to a new convenant. Grace. You cant earn it so it must be given and accepted as a gift from God.

[DKW 86 7,431]

Okay, fresh perspective with a day off from posting on this topic.

This requires some setup, with every detail being actual and first hand. Followed by a question, and remember this is not hypothetical.

We built the house we currently live in (NW of Atlanta) twelve years ago, my children were 5 and 3 at the time. We had lived in our first home in the same area for about seven years. My wife really loved the large development we ultimately built in, and as the neighborhood was nearing completion we found a lot we loved which tied us to a particular builder. About thirty days into the process we found out that the builder was trans-gender and had gone through reassignment surgery a couple of years prior to our involvement with (now) her. We found the builder to be very qualified, holding an engineering degree from Georgia Tech and actually lived in the neighborhood. After we moved into the house we found that she was very involved in the community, holding positions on the homeowners association and the like. She was so open and involved that she would come to the community pool in a bikini. By the way, we love the house and have never had any issues with it.

My question to the regulars on this thread, is he/she heroic in her "courageous" activities or simply a freak show?

http://www.christine...utchristine.htm

Jesus would ask her to sit down and have a meal with her.

While i am utterly confused on this issue, God said love is the way to go. So i will shut up and show the love.

Sin is sin. There are no little sins nor big sins. There is just sin that separates us from God.

We all sin, so why would i ever judge someone otherwise? If we are all co-equal, then why all the hullabaloo about the differences?

The bible uses leavened bread as an example.

Unleavened bread is cracker bread.

Any bread with even the smallest amount of yeast in it becomes dough. You cannot remove the yeast or the consequences of it.

Good analogy for sin, you either have it, (We all do) or you dont.

You are either Righteous, without sin, or you are fallen, with sin and we are all fallen.

[Auctoritas 2,828]

Okay, fresh perspective with a day off from posting on this topic.

This requires some setup, with every detail being actual and first hand. Followed by a question, and remember this is not hypothetical.

We built the house we currently live in (NW of Atlanta) twelve years ago, my children were 5 and 3 at the time. We had lived in our first home in the same area for about seven years. My wife really loved the large development we ultimately built in, and as the neighborhood was nearing completion we found a lot we loved which tied us to a particular builder. About thirty days into the process we found out that the builder was trans-gender and had gone through reassignment surgery a couple of years prior to our involvement with (now) her. We found the builder to be very qualified, holding an engineering degree from Georgia Tech and actually lived in the neighborhood. After we moved into the house we found that she was very involved in the community, holding positions on the homeowners association and the like. She was so open and involved that she would come to the community pool in a bikini. By the way, we love the house and have never had any issues with it.

My question to the regulars on this thread, is he/she heroic in her "courageous" activities or simply a freak show?

http://www.christine...utchristine.htm

The inconvenient fact is, though, it doesn't do it for many once the change is taken to its fullest extent.

That's not an inconvenient "fact", and it is hardly a data point considering your only source was an episode of the Geraldo Rivera show. If you really think that's the case, that there have only been maybe 15 people ever to get a sex change, and 12 of them were on Geraldo, therefore it doesn't work for "many"...I don't even know what to say.

You're making a categorical conclusion that it doesn't make "many" happy, and I think it's one that's demonstrably wrong. Data from 2004ish trumpeted that this was the case, but at best, the research was a qualitative meta-analysis review of the other research. It came up with a number that "up to one-fifth" regret the change.

Of course, the other 4/5ths feel fine about it. At best the data is inconclusive, and many of the reviewed studies were...to put it lightly, not well done. Also, that's 10 years ago. I think we could all agree, whether you perceive it positively or negatively, there is a magnitude of difference between the acceptance of that 10 years ago and the societal acceptance today. (BTW, the surgery IS reversible to some great extent)

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but don't draw sweeping factual conclusions based on them without well-researched data. On the grand totem-pole of research validity, personal or anecdotal experience is literally 1 step from the bottom.

I will also point out that you say "I don't judge" and then proceeded to make statements of judgement - for instance, you categorize what most people who undergo the surgery would call "positive", and you call it "self-destructive." Saying "Cultural decline in America is in full speed descent if these are the new parameters of heroism," likewise is a value judgement.

I responded to a question, that ASKED for a response, with an opinion that obviously doesn't sit well with you and you try to assume the superior position by suggesting only 15 people have had sex change operations? You cannot be serious? Anyway, I dont have the time nor even the mildest passing inclination to debate this topic with you because my opinion is not debatable. It is based, to some degree, on personal experiences that I wonder how much of you actually have yourself,. In any event, if you wish to call these people heroes, have at it. I dont and never will but I wont resort to attempting to discredit you just because i disagree with you. In fact, we dont agree on anything and I see no need for you to even respond to any of my posts and I'll be happy to return that same consideration to you. If you dont think it is self destructive to have your genitals removed there is not much else i can add to help in this conversation.

Not ashamed of what I value, not in the least!

Hey, it's not my wording. You're the one that was silly enough to make broad sweeping generalizations based off an episode of Geraldo.

Also, I think it's pretty funny that people like you still try to obliquely insult people by insinuating they are gay, or in this case, have had a sex change. Ad hominem attacks are the lowest form of debate, which seems to suit you just fine.

[berrytgr 0]

The report on the Jonathan Martin bullying investigation has been released. It is an interesting read and I think draws some fair conclusions. Martin was not the only Olineman being bullied. An unnamed player was taunted daily and accused of being gay not only by other Olineman but by his coach. Unless the Dolphins locker room was the exception Michael Sam will face some upcoming abuse and hazing. It could be an exception because based on the report it seems Incognito was the leader there that created the environment of extreme abuse and insults as normal banter. Not surprisingly Maurice Pouncy was heavily involved in the bullying. Pouncy was one that supported Incognito afterwords (and also has supported Aaron Hernandez)

Here is the report if anyone is interested. http://63bba9dfdf9675bf3f10-68be460ce43dd2a60dd64ca5eca4ae1d.r37.cf1.rackcdn.com/PaulWeissReport.pdf

[Weegle777 78]

The report on the Jonathan Martin bullying investigation has been released. It is an interesting read and I think draws some fair conclusions. Martin was not the only Olineman being bullied. An unnamed player was taunted daily and accused of being gay not only by other Olineman but by his coach. Unless the Dolphins locker room was the exception Michael Sam will face some upcoming abuse and hazing. It could be an exception because based on the report it seems Incognito was the leader there that created the environment of extreme abuse and insults as normal banter. Not surprisingly Maurice Pouncy was heavily involved in the bullying. Pouncy was one that supported Incognito afterwords (and also has supported Aaron Hernandez)

Here is the report if anyone is interested. http://63bba9dfdf9675bf3f10-68be460ce43dd2a60dd64ca5eca4ae1d.r37.cf1.rackcdn.com/PaulWeissReport.pdf

Bullying? You can't be serious. These are grown men in a football lockerroom man. Have you ever been in a lockerroom full of guys? I have been in plenty playing sports and it is normal to be called gay, stupid, fool, turdknocker, and worse. We're guys. It's what we do. This stuff has been going on for centuries. It isn't new.

[war eagle6 0]

The end of the world is near when we start celebrating gay people, GOD forbids this.

Actually. this is just one of many things God forbids. He forbids Lust of the eyes. He forbids Adultery, Lying, False Testimony. Disrespecting your parents in any way. You do realize that disrespecting your parents was punishable by death in the OT? God forbids many many things. Something like 660-680 actual Laws Forbidding and Commanding what we had to do to be Righteous. So you are telling us that you are living all of them? You are living the sacrifice? Really?

If you dont live under the OT then welcome to the club, but let me enlighten you on something. All sin comes up short of the Lord. ALL SIN, there is no hierarchy of sins. ANY SIN means OOPS, YOU FAILED THE TEST. Trying to pervert scripture to make one sin greater than another is an error. All in sin fall short. ALL.

The Law was only here to show us we were too screwed up to be able to abide by it anyway. We needed another way. Grace was the answer, Amazing Grace.

Where in the post did I say I was sinless? Or did I say that celebrating gay people is the only sin? Yes we all come up short in GODS eyes, all I'm speaking on is a sign of the times when this is celebrated! I could care less what anybody's sexual preference is, it's not my job to judge, or anyone else on this board! That's going to be between SAMs, or anyone like him, and The Lord Almighty! We're all going to be judged at the end, regardless of who and what u believe in, bank it!

[AUDub 11,158]

Bullying? You can't be serious. These are grown men in a football lockerroom man. Have you ever been in a lockerroom full of guys? I have been in plenty playing sports and it is normal to be called gay, stupid, fool, turdknocker, and worse. We're guys. It's what we do. This stuff has been going on for centuries. It isn't new.

Have you read the report, Weegs?

[DoctorBarnaby 5]

I read a caption from ESPN that called this young man a " role model " .

I guess they meant to say " homosexual role model " .

Man on Man sex is an unnatural ... perverted act ... period .

I don't think homosexuals should be persecuted , but they should

not be celebrated either .

So labeling gays as unnatural perverts doesn't count as persecution?

"Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group."

First off , you will not hijack the word gay to describe the unnatural perverted act of homosexuality with me .

To call a soldier a soldier is simply a statement of fact . To call a murderer a murderer is simply a statement

of fact . To say fire is hot is simply a statement of fact ....... it is not persecution or mistreatment of the fire .

If your looking to bandy words with me on this subject your wasting your time .

Man on Man sex is an unnatural and perverted act . You may argue to the counter if you so choose .

...not sure how anything that exists in nature, that has existed in nature for at least all of written history, and will probably always exist as long as our species exists can be labeled "unnatural".

"Perversion", of course, is in the eye of the beholder, so while I disagree, I'll concede that someone might choose to use that term according to their beliefs.

Unnatural .... as in " contrary to nature , abnormal " . Men inserting their penis into the excretory opening , through

which fecal matter is expelled , of other men is abnormal and contrary to the nature of the species .

[AURandy56 148]

I read a caption from ESPN that called this young man a " role model " .

I guess they meant to say " homosexual role model " .

Man on Man sex is an unnatural ... perverted act ... period .

I don't think homosexuals should be persecuted , but they should

not be celebrated either .

So labeling gays as unnatural perverts doesn't count as persecution?

"Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group."

First off , you will not hijack the word gay to describe the unnatural perverted act of homosexuality with me .

To call a soldier a soldier is simply a statement of fact . To call a murderer a murderer is simply a statement

of fact . To say fire is hot is simply a statement of fact ....... it is not persecution or mistreatment of the fire .

If your looking to bandy words with me on this subject your wasting your time .

Man on Man sex is an unnatural and perverted act . You may argue to the counter if you so choose .

...not sure how anything that exists in nature, that has existed in nature for at least all of written history, and will probably always exist as long as our species exists can be labeled "unnatural".

"Perversion", of course, is in the eye of the beholder, so while I disagree, I'll concede that someone might choose to use that term according to their beliefs.

Unnatural .... as in " contrary to nature , abnormal " . Men inserting their penis into the excretory opening , through

which fecal matter is expelled , of other men is abnormal and contrary to the nature of the species .

What do you say about men who insert their penis into the excretory opening of a woman? Fecal matter is expelled from them as well as men.

[Weegle777 78]

Pretty gross conversation.