TheBlueVue 177 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some people say our policies with Cuba for the last 50 years has been a failure. How is that? What were our objectives and what has failed? I would say that I haven't seen any benefit-- what has it improved? And why are Canadian's (and many others) more free to travel that US citizens? You're really hung up on this "free to travel" BS aren't you? Are you telling me you feel cheated by the American Govt since you cannot freely travel to Havana? This is the weakest whine I have ever read and as far as I am concerned the ONLY ones who will benefit from Obama's policy is the Cuban dictatorship. I guarantee you the Cuban people will not benefit in any way. Cuba's supporters in Venezuela and Russia are not currently able to continue providing Cuba with the hard currency it needs so, once again Obama propitiates a dictator by running to his rescue. I am against doing business with Cuba because of their public record of consistent and severe human rights violations. It amazes me how you self righteously pontificate about the evils of "torturing" our enemies but, evidently dont, give 2 sh**s about the oppression of the typical Cuban citizen True patriots value their freedom. Totalitarians don't. Maybe you can explain that in a way that makes it reasonable to support eliminating the sanctions with Cuba and how that action will improve the living conditions for the Cuba people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 12,876 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some people say our policies with Cuba for the last 50 years has been a failure. How is that? What were our objectives and what has failed? I would say that I haven't seen any benefit-- what has it improved? And why are Canadian's (and many others) more free to travel that US citizens? You're really hung up on this "free to travel" BS aren't you? Are you telling me you feel cheated by the American Govt since you cannot freely travel to Havana? This is the weakest whine I have ever read and as far as I am concerned the ONLY ones who will benefit from Obama's policy is the Cuban dictatorship. I guarantee you the Cuban people will not benefit in any way. Cuba's supporters in Venezuela and Russia are not currently able to continue providing Cuba with the hard currency it needs so, once again Obama propitiates a dictator by running to his rescue. I am against doing business with Cuba because of their public record of consistent and severe human rights violations. It amazes me how you self righteously pontificate about the evils of "torturing" our enemies but, evidently dont, give 2 sh**s about the oppression of the typical Cuban citizen True patriots value their freedom. Totalitarians don't. Maybe you can explain that in a way that makes it reasonable to support eliminating the sanctions with Cuba and how that action will improve the living conditions for the Cuba people. They're 90 miles away. If American hotels and restaurant chains move in there and a flood of American tourists the interaction will do more to overcome the propaganda they hear than anything we've done up until now, not to mention more and better jobs. If their baseball players can freely come to the USA to play and if MLB were to have the occasional game there the drive for freedom will continue to pick up steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlueVue 177 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some people say our policies with Cuba for the last 50 years has been a failure. How is that? What were our objectives and what has failed? I would say that I haven't seen any benefit-- what has it improved? And why are Canadian's (and many others) more free to travel that US citizens? You're really hung up on this "free to travel" BS aren't you? Are you telling me you feel cheated by the American Govt since you cannot freely travel to Havana? This is the weakest whine I have ever read and as far as I am concerned the ONLY ones who will benefit from Obama's policy is the Cuban dictatorship. I guarantee you the Cuban people will not benefit in any way. Cuba's supporters in Venezuela and Russia are not currently able to continue providing Cuba with the hard currency it needs so, once again Obama propitiates a dictator by running to his rescue. I am against doing business with Cuba because of their public record of consistent and severe human rights violations. It amazes me how you self righteously pontificate about the evils of "torturing" our enemies but, evidently dont, give 2 sh**s about the oppression of the typical Cuban citizen True patriots value their freedom. Totalitarians don't. Maybe you can explain that in a way that makes it reasonable to support eliminating the sanctions with Cuba and how that action will improve the living conditions for the Cuba people. They're 90 miles away. If American hotels and restaurant chains move in there and a flood of American tourists the interaction will do more to overcome the propaganda they hear than anything we've done up until now, not to mention more and better jobs. If their baseball players can freely come to the USA to play and if MLB were to have the occasional game there the drive for freedom will continue to pick up steam. Ridiculously naive assumption. It is a dictatorship Tex. None of that will matter and Im not even going to say nice try. Funny though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 12,876 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some people say our policies with Cuba for the last 50 years has been a failure. How is that? What were our objectives and what has failed? I would say that I haven't seen any benefit-- what has it improved? And why are Canadian's (and many others) more free to travel that US citizens? You're really hung up on this "free to travel" BS aren't you? Are you telling me you feel cheated by the American Govt since you cannot freely travel to Havana? This is the weakest whine I have ever read and as far as I am concerned the ONLY ones who will benefit from Obama's policy is the Cuban dictatorship. I guarantee you the Cuban people will not benefit in any way. Cuba's supporters in Venezuela and Russia are not currently able to continue providing Cuba with the hard currency it needs so, once again Obama propitiates a dictator by running to his rescue. I am against doing business with Cuba because of their public record of consistent and severe human rights violations. It amazes me how you self righteously pontificate about the evils of "torturing" our enemies but, evidently dont, give 2 sh**s about the oppression of the typical Cuban citizen True patriots value their freedom. Totalitarians don't. Maybe you can explain that in a way that makes it reasonable to support eliminating the sanctions with Cuba and how that action will improve the living conditions for the Cuba people. They're 90 miles away. If American hotels and restaurant chains move in there and a flood of American tourists the interaction will do more to overcome the propaganda they hear than anything we've done up until now, not to mention more and better jobs. If their baseball players can freely come to the USA to play and if MLB were to have the occasional game there the drive for freedom will continue to pick up steam. Ridiculously naive assumption. It is a dictatorship Tex. None of that will matter and Im not even going to say nice try. Funny though. Your way has worked wonders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Tiger 4,261 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Text....no further comment on post #147? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 12,876 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Text....no further comment on post #147? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlueVue 177 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some people say our policies with Cuba for the last 50 years has been a failure. How is that? What were our objectives and what has failed? I would say that I haven't seen any benefit-- what has it improved? And why are Canadian's (and many others) more free to travel that US citizens? You're really hung up on this "free to travel" BS aren't you? Are you telling me you feel cheated by the American Govt since you cannot freely travel to Havana? This is the weakest whine I have ever read and as far as I am concerned the ONLY ones who will benefit from Obama's policy is the Cuban dictatorship. I guarantee you the Cuban people will not benefit in any way. Cuba's supporters in Venezuela and Russia are not currently able to continue providing Cuba with the hard currency it needs so, once again Obama propitiates a dictator by running to his rescue. I am against doing business with Cuba because of their public record of consistent and severe human rights violations. It amazes me how you self righteously pontificate about the evils of "torturing" our enemies but, evidently dont, give 2 sh**s about the oppression of the typical Cuban citizen True patriots value their freedom. Totalitarians don't. Maybe you can explain that in a way that makes it reasonable to support eliminating the sanctions with Cuba and how that action will improve the living conditions for the Cuba people. They're 90 miles away. If American hotels and restaurant chains move in there and a flood of American tourists the interaction will do more to overcome the propaganda they hear than anything we've done up until now, not to mention more and better jobs. If their baseball players can freely come to the USA to play and if MLB were to have the occasional game there the drive for freedom will continue to pick up steam. Ridiculously naive assumption. It is a dictatorship Tex. None of that will matter and Im not even going to say nice try. Funny though. Your way has worked wonders. My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,482 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Predictable that the "progressive" libs step over the bodies of the CIA who protect them so they can embrace Fidel and Raul.....the perfectors of torture. Do you consider Rand Paul a progressive lib? No he's just a politician trying to separate himself and possibly gain the support of some who traditionally do not vote conservatively. Or...he's just applying common sense to the issue rather than parroting whatever the conservative noise machine tells him he should say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Tiger 4,261 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 TexT....too bad. I was hoping you or someone could tell me what our objectives have been. I sure don't know and my point was how can anyone who doesn't know the objectives say they were a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,482 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been. So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 12,876 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some people say our policies with Cuba for the last 50 years has been a failure. How is that? What were our objectives and what has failed? I would say that I haven't seen any benefit-- what has it improved? And why are Canadian's (and many others) more free to travel that US citizens? You're really hung up on this "free to travel" BS aren't you? Are you telling me you feel cheated by the American Govt since you cannot freely travel to Havana? This is the weakest whine I have ever read and as far as I am concerned the ONLY ones who will benefit from Obama's policy is the Cuban dictatorship. I guarantee you the Cuban people will not benefit in any way. Cuba's supporters in Venezuela and Russia are not currently able to continue providing Cuba with the hard currency it needs so, once again Obama propitiates a dictator by running to his rescue. I am against doing business with Cuba because of their public record of consistent and severe human rights violations. It amazes me how you self righteously pontificate about the evils of "torturing" our enemies but, evidently dont, give 2 sh**s about the oppression of the typical Cuban citizen True patriots value their freedom. Totalitarians don't. Maybe you can explain that in a way that makes it reasonable to support eliminating the sanctions with Cuba and how that action will improve the living conditions for the Cuba people. They're 90 miles away. If American hotels and restaurant chains move in there and a flood of American tourists the interaction will do more to overcome the propaganda they hear than anything we've done up until now, not to mention more and better jobs. If their baseball players can freely come to the USA to play and if MLB were to have the occasional game there the drive for freedom will continue to pick up steam. Ridiculously naive assumption. It is a dictatorship Tex. None of that will matter and Im not even going to say nice try. Funny though. Your way has worked wonders. My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been. You just stated your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlueVue 177 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Predictable that the "progressive" libs step over the bodies of the CIA who protect them so they can embrace Fidel and Raul.....the perfectors of torture. Do you consider Rand Paul a progressive lib? No he's just a politician trying to separate himself and possibly gain the support of some who traditionally do not vote conservatively. Or...he's just applying common sense to the issue rather than parroting whatever the conservative noise machine tells him he should say. Predictable that the "progressive" libs step over the bodies of the CIA who protect them so they can embrace Fidel and Raul.....the perfectors of torture. Do you consider Rand Paul a progressive lib? No he's just a politician trying to separate himself and possibly gain the support of some who traditionally do not vote conservatively. Or...he's just applying common sense to the issue rather than parroting whatever the conservative noise machine tells him he should say. SO, you too, have no problem with getting in the bed with the Castor brothers? I dont need anyone's assistance with this. I was very close to a family that left Cuba in the 60s. I simply have enough info that makes it impossible for me to cosign anything that benefits a ruthless dictatorship like they have in Cuba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Tiger 4,261 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Thank goodness for the conservative voice machine. If not for them we would have Emperor Obama by now for sure. They have been the only thorn in side and called him out on his many lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 12,876 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 TexT....too bad. I was hoping you or someone could tell me what our objectives have been. I sure don't know and my point was how can anyone who doesn't know the objectives say they were a failure. The fact that after 50 years neither you or I can state the objectives might suggest the course of action was a failure, might it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Tiger 4,261 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 TexT......no it just means we are both ignorant of those objectives/policies which span Dem and GOP presidents but you think they are a failure. How can you say they if you can't state them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlueVue 177 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been. So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years? We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 12,876 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 TexT......no it just means we are both ignorant of those objectives/policies which span Dem and GOP presidents but you think they are a failure. How can you say they if you can't state them? When a successful course of action has been in place for 50 years don't you think the objectives would be apparent based on the successes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,482 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been. So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years? We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else. Stop dodging. You said you don't approve of doing business with dictators with deplorable human rights records. Evidently that isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Tiger 4,261 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 TexT.......simple answer....No. Fact remains you dodge (as Titan says above) since you can't say what our objectives have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,373 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some people say our policies with Cuba for the last 50 years has been a failure. How is that? What were our objectives and what has failed? I would say that I haven't seen any benefit-- what has it improved? And why are Canadian's (and many others) more free to travel that US citizens? You're really hung up on this "free to travel" BS aren't you? Are you telling me you feel cheated by the American Govt since you cannot freely travel to Havana? This is the weakest whine I have ever read and as far as I am concerned the ONLY ones who will benefit from Obama's policy is the Cuban dictatorship. I guarantee you the Cuban people will not benefit in any way. Cuba's supporters in Venezuela and Russia are not currently able to continue providing Cuba with the hard currency it needs so, once again Obama propitiates a dictator by running to his rescue. I am against doing business with Cuba because of their public record of consistent and severe human rights violations. It amazes me how you self righteously pontificate about the evils of "torturing" our enemies but, evidently dont, give 2 sh**s about the oppression of the typical Cuban citizen True patriots value their freedom. Totalitarians don't. Maybe you can explain that in a way that makes it reasonable to support eliminating the sanctions with Cuba and how that action will improve the living conditions for the Cuba people. Are you so isolated that you haven't heard or read of the many arguments of how opening up Cuba will help liberalize the government? Just go to any search engine and search: "How opening Cuba will help". I haven't actually heard any arguments about how exposing Cubans to our culture will be counter-productive to liberalizing - or replacing - their government. It's pretty much a given. The same is true for every other communist government in the world. Just look at Korea as a counter-example. Now you may disagree with that consensus, but you need to explain why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,373 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 TexT.......simple answer....No. Fact remains you dodge (as Titan says above) since you can't say what our objectives have been. Our objective has been to overthrow, or otherwise facilitate the replacement of their communist government with a democracy and to diminish their influence anywhere and everywhere in the meantime. I note that you haven't yet volunteered your understanding of our policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autigeremt 6,629 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 It was bound to happen. May as well be now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 12,876 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 TexT.......simple answer....No. Fact remains you dodge (as Titan says above) since you can't say what our objectives have been. You tell me, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlueVue 177 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been. So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years? We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else. Stop dodging. You said you don't approve of doing business with dictators with deplorable human rights records. Evidently that isn't true. Im not dodging. The topic is whether or not I support a policy that benefits the Castro brothers. I know too much about them from personal involvement with people who escaped from Cuba in the 60s to be in favor of it. Discussing Vietnam and/or China is a different thread. Start one if that is where you want to go here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 12,876 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 The original objective of US policy toward Cuba was to have Castro overthrown. Today, the State Dept. states: "U.S. policy toward Cuba is focused on encouraging democratic and economic reforms and increased respect for human rights on the part of the Cuban Government. The U.S. Government has taken steps to reach out to the Cuban people in support of their desire to freely determine their country’s future. Although Cuba is subject to U.S. trade sanctions, the United States remains Cuba’s largest supplier of food. The United States is committed to supporting safe, orderly, and legal migration from Cuba through the effective implementation of the 1994-95 U.S.-Cuba Migration Accords." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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