Fort Worth schools jam through new trans policies

[channonc 466]

That might be true if the "whole thing" were just public restrooms. But it isn't.

The same thing can be said for a locker room. If I look visibly like a man and enter a women's locker room, I think that will cause more stares than if he just went into the men's room.

Again, what about if your birth certificate and DL have been changed. Does that make a difference?

[AURaptor 1,125]

0.03% of the population forcing how the other 99.07% live & think.

Thanks Obama

[TitanTiger 20,499]

That might be true if the "whole thing" were just public restrooms. But it isn't.

The same thing can be said for a locker room. If I look visibly like a man and enter a women's locker room, I think that will cause more stares than if he just went into the men's room.

Again, what about if your birth certificate and DL have been changed. Does that make a difference?

If someone still possesses male genitalia, a girl in a single-sex dorm should not be placed in a room with that person unaware. That is simply not fair and shows utter disregard for the legitimate needs and concerns of one person in favor of the other.

[Strychnine 1,802]

That might be true if the "whole thing" were just public restrooms. But it isn't.

The same thing can be said for a locker room. If I look visibly like a man and enter a women's locker room, I think that will cause more stares than if he just went into the men's room.

Again, what about if your birth certificate and DL have been changed. Does that make a difference?

If someone still possesses male genitalia, a girl in a single-sex dorm should not be placed in a room with that person unaware. That is simply not fair and shows utter disregard for the legitimate needs and concerns of one person in favor of the other.

I agree with you there. I do not think a person should be assigned a transsexual roommate without their knowledge. That person may object to transsexuality, and that basically assures that you will end up with a problem. There is bound to be at least one person in that dorm that can co-exist with a transsexual without issue.

[homersapien 11,393]

If changing the way public restrooms are used makes half the country uncomfortable, but satisfies less than 1 percent is the country really better off? I cant say I know the difficulties of being transgender but Im guessing they have been able to use public restrooms prior to this law. Just seems to me, left handed people have a harder time with many things more so than transgenders do using public restrooms and left handers make up a much larger percent of the population, why isn't there any big government hubbub about that?...not that Id want one, nor am I left handed...

Exactly. The only thing new in this are the laws making it illegal for them to continue doing so.

[homersapien 11,393]

It's very obvious you have not ever spoken to/interacted (knowingly) with someone who is transgender. I don't think you realize just how tough it is. I would just urge you to open your mind a little bit. You don't have to agree, but just try to understand. You keep bringing up your daughters. What is one of them was transgender?

Watch some of these interviews.

You do realize that one can be understanding and feel for their difficulties but still see that this situation is untenable? I'm not proposing that we mistreat anyone, but everyone wants to act as if the feelings and needs of the trans person are all that matter and if you can't get onboard with that you're just some cold-hearted bigot. That simply is not true.

What it seems to me is that the 'pro-trans' side has zero sense of balance here. All that matters is the feelings and concerns of one person and everyone else can go take a flying leap.

It is patently unfair to foist this situation on a person unbeknownst to them. This isn't just a matter of being friendly with someone, or sharing a meal, or working together. This is your roommate. There are very good reasons why, especially a female, would choose a single sex dorm and this directly undermines it not matter how much you want to believe it doesn't because of someone's self-professed feelings.

No one is going to be forced to room with a transgender.

And if you really cannot tell they are transgender (highly unlikely), then where's the harm? Again, you seem to be assuming that transgender persons invariably represent a threat, when that is just not true.

[SaturdayGT 719]

If changing the way public restrooms are used makes half the country uncomfortable, but satisfies less than 1 percent is the country really better off? I cant say I know the difficulties of being transgender but Im guessing they have been able to use public restrooms prior to this law. Just seems to me, left handed people have a harder time with many things more so than transgenders do using public restrooms and left handers make up a much larger percent of the population, why isn't there any big government hubbub about that?...not that Id want one, nor am I left handed...

Exactly. The only thing new in this are the laws making it illegal for them to continue doing so.

Thats true, but forgive me if I have this wrong, in the NC case, it was the city of Charlotte that first said that public restrooms can be used as per the persons gender identity. Thats kinda what prompted the state to come up with their law against it....either or, doesn't really matter I suppose...if nothing was ever brought up, whether it be for or against the bathroom stuff, we wouldn't be talking about this one bit.

[homersapien 11,393]

These types of situations you pull out though suggest that someone is hiding their "true gender" because they want to assault someone.

No they don't. But they are hiding their true biological sex. And to most women, telling them you are trans and feel like you are really a woman isn't going to change much about how they feel. And I imagine someone finding out 6 months later that they've been sharing private spaces, changing clothes and so on with a person who is biologically and anatomically male is not going to make them very happy.

And if they are a rape survivor, there's no telling what kind of triggering episode that discovery might be.

I would think with HIPPA and other privacy laws, disclosing this type of thing would be a huge violation of someone's privacy and medical condition. You also aren't entitled to not have a disabled roommate, or someone who hasn't been diagnosed with severe depression, who is bipolar.

But if you chose a single-sex dorm (as a girl), you do have a right and an expectation that you are actually sharing your intimate living quarters with an actual girl. That you aren't going to walk in and discover that your "female" roommate is actually a boy in every way except what they perceive between their ears.

Nor are you entitled to even know such things. If you aren't comfortable with a "blind roommate" situation then you either come to college with a roommate or live off-campus.

There is no such thing as a dorm where you could request "no cripples" or "sighted only." But there are single-sex dorms and they exist for very good reasons. It is not right to put someone in a room with someone who is not a biological female, particularly if they haven't had a sex change operation, and not tell them.

I get that we don't want to unnecessarily bring emotional distress to the trans person here and I'm trying to be nice about this, but they aren't the only person's feelings and concerns that matter here.

It's very obvious you have not ever spoken to/interacted (knowingly) with someone who is transgender. I don't think you realize just how tough it is. I would just urge you to open your mind a little bit. You don't have to agree, but just try to understand. You keep bringing up your daughters. What is one of them was transgender?

Watch some of these interviews.

Most mental illnesses are very tough. Why would gender dysphoria be any different? I empathize with them and their problems, I simply disagree that I have to be an enabler of that problem by accepting their delusions as reality.

Yeah, that's real empathy you've got there.

[MDM4AU 332]

Titan, tell your daughter to suck it up and deal with it. Her feelings about a roommate with a package is not important.

[channonc 466]

That might be true if the "whole thing" were just public restrooms. But it isn't.

The same thing can be said for a locker room. If I look visibly like a man and enter a women's locker room, I think that will cause more stares than if he just went into the men's room.

Again, what about if your birth certificate and DL have been changed. Does that make a difference?

If someone still possesses male genitalia, a girl in a single-sex dorm should not be placed in a room with that person unaware. That is simply not fair and shows utter disregard for the legitimate needs and concerns of one person in favor of the other.

So the fact that legally they are no longer a man doesn't matter?

[homersapien 11,393]

If changing the way public restrooms are used makes half the country uncomfortable, but satisfies less than 1 percent is the country really better off? I cant say I know the difficulties of being transgender but Im guessing they have been able to use public restrooms prior to this law. Just seems to me, left handed people have a harder time with many things more so than transgenders do using public restrooms and left handers make up a much larger percent of the population, why isn't there any big government hubbub about that?...not that Id want one, nor am I left handed...

The few trans women that I know were using the women's restroom (and I assume locker rooms) prior to this becoming the apparent big deal that it has become. I'm not aware of any incidents they experienced. I do know that I have never encountered a trans man or woman in the men's restroom, that I know of at least. I do think sending trans women (they generally look and act like women, many very convincingly) to the men's facilities is likely to create more incidents than existed prior. I did not consider this an issue until it reached its recent critical mass.

Funny how that doesn't get discussed. With these laws a transgender person has to choose between breaking the law or causing a scene that will possibly put herself in danger.

Ignorance, fear and prejudice is far more dangerous than a mere penis.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

No one is going to be forced to room with a transgender.

You know that isn't the contention here. It is that one should not be placed, completely unaware, in a rooming situation with someone of the opposite sex - even if they claim to be of the same gender. That is patently unfair to them.

And if you really cannot tell they are transgender (highly unlikely), then where's the harm? Again, you seem to be assuming that transgender persons invariably represent a threat, when that is just not true.

Again, a mischaracterization of the argument and the concern.

There are completely legitimate reasons for a woman to not wish to share private, intimate spaces with bodies of the opposite sex and to thus choose a single-sex living environment. To fail to acknowledge this and place a woman in such a situation without her knowledge is unsafe, utterly lacking in sensitivity and unfair. Using your logic, one could ask what the harm is in simply letting a gay man living in the women's dorm? Or a cisgendered cross-dressing man, so long as he can keep it a secret? Are you really going to advocate for the "what they don't know won't hurt them" line of argumentation?

[TitanTiger 20,499]

That might be true if the "whole thing" were just public restrooms. But it isn't.

The same thing can be said for a locker room. If I look visibly like a man and enter a women's locker room, I think that will cause more stares than if he just went into the men's room.

Again, what about if your birth certificate and DL have been changed. Does that make a difference?

If someone still possesses male genitalia, a girl in a single-sex dorm should not be placed in a room with that person unaware. That is simply not fair and shows utter disregard for the legitimate needs and concerns of one person in favor of the other.

So the fact that legally they are no longer a man doesn't matter?

No. If they still possess male genitalia, it is not fair to place a woman in a close living situation such as this without her knowledge? How on earth can you believe otherwise?

[homersapien 11,393]

That might be true if the "whole thing" were just public restrooms. But it isn't.

The same thing can be said for a locker room. If I look visibly like a man and enter a women's locker room, I think that will cause more stares than if he just went into the men's room.

Again, what about if your birth certificate and DL have been changed. Does that make a difference?

If someone still possesses male genitalia, a girl in a single-sex dorm should not be placed in a room with that person unaware. That is simply not fair and shows utter disregard for the legitimate needs and concerns of one person in favor of the other.

So you are OK with her if she's been surgically altered? Is it just the penis that you have a problem with?

[TitanTiger 20,499]

That might be true if the "whole thing" were just public restrooms. But it isn't.

The same thing can be said for a locker room. If I look visibly like a man and enter a women's locker room, I think that will cause more stares than if he just went into the men's room.

Again, what about if your birth certificate and DL have been changed. Does that make a difference?

If someone still possesses male genitalia, a girl in a single-sex dorm should not be placed in a room with that person unaware. That is simply not fair and shows utter disregard for the legitimate needs and concerns of one person in favor of the other.

So you are OK with her if she's been surgically altered? Is it just the penis that you have a problem with?

I wouldn't say that I'm "ok" with it, but it is certainly less problematic. If someone is committed enough to this notion to have a sex change operation, it alters the equation somewhat. I would think it would also take the potentially harmful triggering scenario for a sexual assault survivor off the table most likely.

[channonc 466]

No one is going to be forced to room with a transgender.

You know that isn't the contention here. It is that one should not be placed, completely unaware, in a rooming situation with someone of the opposite sex - even if they claim to be of the same gender. That is patently unfair to them.

Huh? I'm placed in public places (including restrooms) with people of all stripes all the time. I don't know everyone's physical or mental health at any given time. I'm not privy to people's health history just because I'm entering a public space nor do they know those things about me. You have gone from restrooms, to locker rooms to now rooming situations. You are becoming completely irrational about this.

And if you really cannot tell they are transgender (highly unlikely), then where's the harm? Again, you seem to be assuming that transgender persons invariably represent a threat, when that is just not true.

Again, a mischaracterization of the argument and the concern.

There are completely legitimate reasons for a woman to not wish to share private, intimate spaces with bodies of the opposite sex and to thus choose a single-sex living environment. To fail to acknowledge this and place a woman in such a situation without her knowledge is unsafe, utterly lacking in sensitivity and unfair. Using your logic, one could ask what the harm is in simply letting a gay man living in the women's dorm? Or a cisgendered cross-dressing man, so long as he can keep it a secret? Are you really going to advocate for the "what they don't know won't hurt them" line of argumentation?

If you feel uncomfortable being in a PUBLIC place with another member of the PUBLIC, then by all means, please continue to only use your private facilities. And BTW, what is the harm in a gay man living in a woman's dorm? What's the problem with a straight man for that matter? Again, quite frankly, I share facilities at home with members of the opposite gender all the time. All of those men are not related to me, some are friends, some are family of friends who come to visit, some are acquaintances over for dinner.

[channonc 466]

That might be true if the "whole thing" were just public restrooms. But it isn't.

The same thing can be said for a locker room. If I look visibly like a man and enter a women's locker room, I think that will cause more stares than if he just went into the men's room.

Again, what about if your birth certificate and DL have been changed. Does that make a difference?

If someone still possesses male genitalia, a girl in a single-sex dorm should not be placed in a room with that person unaware. That is simply not fair and shows utter disregard for the legitimate needs and concerns of one person in favor of the other.

So you are OK with her if she's been surgically altered? Is it just the penis that you have a problem with?

I wouldn't say that I'm "ok" with it, but it is certainly less problematic. If someone is committed enough to this notion to have a sex change operation, it alters the equation somewhat. I would think it would also take the potentially harmful triggering scenario for a sexual assault survivor off the table most likely.

This link may be helpful.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Huh? I'm placed in public places (including restrooms) with people of all stripes all the time. I don't know everyone's physical or mental health at any given time. I'm not privy to people's health history just because I'm entering a public space nor do they know those things about me. You have gone from restrooms, to locker rooms to now rooming situations. You are becoming completely irrational about this.

channonc, I like and respect you, but this is intellectually dishonest equivocating. You know as well as I do that sharing an elevator, an office, or even a restroom in some cases is far different than being in the tight and intimate living quarters of the average dorm room or college apartment.

It is not irrational to point out that all the "potty law" talk is disingenuous when there are much bigger implications to this. That is why I am not letting anyone get away with simply focusing on restrooms and am showing the other dominoes that fall and the requirements that kick in.

If you feel uncomfortable being in a PUBLIC place with another member of the PUBLIC, then by all means, please continue to only use your private facilities.

BECAUSE YOUR HOME IS NOT A PUBLIC SPACE! Good gravy, channonc, don't treat me like I'm some kind of imbecile here. We're both grown adults with above average intelligence, but this statement of yours insults mine.

And BTW, what is the harm in a gay man living in a woman's dorm? What's the problem with a straight man for that matter?

Duh...because it's a WOMEN'S dorm. There are completely legitimate and justifiable reasons for having sex-segregated spaces, especially living quarters. There are numerous options out there for people who don't care about such living arrangements. No one is stopping them from having roommates of whatever persuasion they wish elsewhere, but for those who do care, that separation in these dorms should be maintained and available.

Again, quite frankly, I share facilities at home with members of the opposite gender all the time. All of those men are not related to me, some are friends, some are family of friends who come to visit, some are acquaintances over for dinner.

That's wonderful. No one is trying to take that away from you. But there are some that prefer, at least at this stage of life or this particular environment, to live in single-sex living quarters. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can go start a commune where everyone lives in one big room together regardless of age, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, or otherkin status. But not everyone wants to live like that. And it doesn't have to have anything to do with their moral or religious beliefs. So these spaces and their parameters should be maintained and respected.

[TheBlueVue 177]

These types of situations you pull out though suggest that someone is hiding their "true gender" because they want to assault someone.

No they don't. But they are hiding their true biological sex. And to most women, telling them you are trans and feel like you are really a woman isn't going to change much about how they feel. And I imagine someone finding out 6 months later that they've been sharing private spaces, changing clothes and so on with a person who is biologically and anatomically male is not going to make them very happy.

And if they are a rape survivor, there's no telling what kind of triggering episode that discovery might be.

I would think with HIPPA and other privacy laws, disclosing this type of thing would be a huge violation of someone's privacy and medical condition. You also aren't entitled to not have a disabled roommate, or someone who hasn't been diagnosed with severe depression, who is bipolar.

But if you chose a single-sex dorm (as a girl), you do have a right and an expectation that you are actually sharing your intimate living quarters with an actual girl. That you aren't going to walk in and discover that your "female" roommate is actually a boy in every way except what they perceive between their ears.

Nor are you entitled to even know such things. If you aren't comfortable with a "blind roommate" situation then you either come to college with a roommate or live off-campus.

There is no such thing as a dorm where you could request "no cripples" or "sighted only." But there are single-sex dorms and they exist for very good reasons. It is not right to put someone in a room with someone who is not a biological female, particularly if they haven't had a sex change operation, and not tell them.

I get that we don't want to unnecessarily bring emotional distress to the trans person here and I'm trying to be nice about this, but they aren't the only person's feelings and concerns that matter here.

It's very obvious you have not ever spoken to/interacted (knowingly) with someone who is transgender. I don't think you realize just how tough it is. I would just urge you to open your mind a little bit. You don't have to agree, but just try to understand. You keep bringing up your daughters. What is one of them was transgender?

Watch some of these interviews.

Most mental illnesses are very tough. Why would gender dysphoria be any different? I empathize with them and their problems, I simply disagree that I have to be an enabler of that problem by accepting their delusions as reality.

APA on transgender treatment

In my world, study of any given idea is complete when it can be proven manifestly false. I'm not personally preoccupied with the transsexual phenomenon primarily because sex is a genetic proposition and is determined by chromosomes - not by emotional confusion. I find it an utterly preposterous proposition that a woman could, in reality, be trapped inside a man's body or vice versa. If you choose to believe that which can be proven manifestly false by determining what sort of package any given individual is carrying, then have at it. I'll stick to the bounds of reality. In my view, caving into these delusions is part of the problem not the solution.

[channonc 466]

Huh? I'm placed in public places (including restrooms) with people of all stripes all the time. I don't know everyone's physical or mental health at any given time. I'm not privy to people's health history just because I'm entering a public space nor do they know those things about me. You have gone from restrooms, to locker rooms to now rooming situations. You are becoming completely irrational about this.

channonc, I like and respect you, but this is intellectually dishonest equivocating. You know as well as I do that sharing an elevator, an office, or even a restroom in some cases is far different than being in the tight and intimate living quarters of the average dorm room or college apartment.

It is not irrational to point out that all the "potty law" talk is disingenuous when there are much bigger implications to this. That is why I am not letting anyone get away with simply focusing on restrooms and am showing the other dominoes that fall and the requirements that kick in.

If you feel uncomfortable being in a PUBLIC place with another member of the PUBLIC, then by all means, please continue to only use your private facilities.

BECAUSE YOUR HOME IS NOT A PUBLIC SPACE! Good gravy, channonc, don't treat me like I'm some kind of imbecile here. We're both grown adults with above average intelligence, but this statement of yours insults mine.

And BTW, what is the harm in a gay man living in a woman's dorm? What's the problem with a straight man for that matter?

Duh...because it's a WOMEN'S dorm. There are completely legitimate and justifiable reasons for having sex-segregated spaces, especially living quarters. There are numerous options out there for people who don't care about such living arrangements. No one is stopping them from having roommates of whatever persuasion they wish elsewhere, but for those who do care, that separation in these dorms should be maintained and available.

Again, quite frankly, I share facilities at home with members of the opposite gender all the time. All of those men are not related to me, some are friends, some are family of friends who come to visit, some are acquaintances over for dinner.

That's wonderful. No one is trying to take that away from you. But there are some that prefer, at least at this stage of life or this particular environment, to live in single-sex living quarters. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can go start a commune where everyone lives in one big room together regardless of age, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, or otherkin status. But not everyone wants to live like that. And it doesn't have to have anything to do with their moral or religious beliefs. So these spaces and their parameters should be maintained and respected.

Titan, you are the one who keeps moving the goal post. First it was bathrooms, then it was locker rooms, now it's dorms. Sorry, I think my statement stands given this constant movement.

Again, if someone is uncomfortable with the possibilities of sharing a dorm with an assigned stranger who may be transgender than I think it is best for that person to elect to either: 1) live alone, or 2) live with a chosen roommate, or 3) live off campus. Again, you take your chances on the assigned roommate space. You could get a roommate who is suicidal, you could get a roommate with a stalker that puts you in danger, you could live with a roommate who has homicidal tendencies. I could go on and on. All of those scenarios are much more likely to cause someone harm or danger than having a transgender roommate and all of those above scenarios are not ones you would even know about. Some states like California, only require clinically appropriate treatment for the purpose of gender transition, based on contemporary medical standards" in order to petition for your birth certificate to be changed. The school (in your case) may not even know someone is transgender if all of their supporting documentation indicates they are the gender they are presenting. For states like these, are you suggesting that we should have physical inspections? In Alabama, don't worry, you have to have gone through gender reassignment surgery to have your birth certificate changed.

Titan, usually you are not this irrational and emotionally driven on these issues. I mean no disrespect as I find your opinions to often be very thoughtful even if I disagree. This time, you seem to be caught in the trap of fear, and reacting purely on emotion instead of putting yourself in the other person's shoes. I suspect this is really just a case of the fear of the unknown.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Titan, you are the one who keeps moving the goal post. First it was bathrooms, then it was locker rooms, now it's dorms. Sorry, I think my statement stands given this constant movement.

It's not movement. My entire point has been that this issue cannot be confined to just discussing bathrooms and that to continue focusing only on that aspect of it is dishonest. Yes, I have a problem with the bathroom aspect - but there is much more to it. That's not moving the goalposts, it's acknowledging the full spectrum of things this issue affects.

Again, if someone is uncomfortable with the possibilities of sharing a dorm with an assigned stranger who may be transgender than I think it is best for that person to elect to either: 1) live alone, or 2) live with a chosen roommate, or 3) live off campus. Again, you take your chances on the assigned roommate space.

And that is ridiculous. It is understood that you might get a roommate that is odd, or that you don't click with. But when you sign up for a single-sex dorm, it is not being unreasonable to expect, at a bare minimum, that that requirement is legitimately adhered to and you aren't going to walk in on Jessica standing there with her wang dangling out.

You could get a roommate who is suicidal, you could get a roommate with a stalker that puts you in danger, you could live with a roommate who has homicidal tendencies. I could go on and on. All of those scenarios are much more likely to cause someone harm or danger than having a transgender roommate and all of those above scenarios are not ones you would even know about.

If there were a way to screen for crazy, dangerous people that might harm you, I'm sure we could make it happen. Hell, if we knew such a dangerous person was around we probably would prevent them from being there. But we can legitimately screen to have single sex dorms.

This line of logic that says if you can't screen for every possible problem or danger you shouldn't be allowed to screen for any is not convincing.

Some states like California, only require clinically appropriate treatment for the purpose of gender transition, based on contemporary medical standards" in order to petition for your birth certificate to be changed. The school (in your case) may not even know someone is transgender if all of their supporting documentation indicates they are the gender they are presenting. For states like these, are you suggesting that we should have physical inspections? In Alabama, don't worry, you have to have gone through gender reassignment surgery to have your birth certificate changed.

Then Alabama is clearly operating, for once, with more common sense in this realm than California.

Titan, usually you are not this irrational and emotionally driven on these issues. I mean no disrespect as I find your opinions to often be very thoughtful even if I disagree. This time, you seem to be caught in the trap of fear, and reacting purely on emotion instead of putting yourself in the other person's shoes. I suspect this is really just a case of the fear of the unknown.

What you are detecting isn't irrationalism or emotionalism. You are detecting irritation and growing annoyance at some of the ridiculous equivocating and dismissive attitudes toward legitimate needs, desires and concerns on this subject.

channonc, clear something up for me: is it your contention that we just shouldn't have any sex-segregated spaces at all?

[channonc 466]

channonc, clear something up for me: is it your contention that we just shouldn't have any sex-segregated spaces at all?

Nope, but I also am not uncomfortable with gender neutral spaces. I think your supposition that a transgender person "Jessica standing there with her wang dangling out." tells me all I need to know about your experience with those who are transgender. The idea that one is comfortable with their anatomy is patently false. This is why they are transgender in the first place. Many have horrible body image issues, and are not going to feel comfortable being "exposed" to anyone. This is why I believe your fear is irrational. Transgender people have been sharing spaces (dorms, locker rooms, restrooms) with us for decades with little to no notice. As far as restrooms, dorm rooms, locker rooms being co-ed, I generally have no problem with it provided everyone has some privacy. Stall doors, partitions in locker rooms, and restroom doors in dorms provide this reasonable level of privacy that everyone in the situation appreciates, including the transgender person.

[maxwere 82]

0.03% of the population forcing how the other 99.07% live & think.

Thanks Obama

Most of this country thinks in terms of gender (role) neutrality. It wasn't PT Barnum that pushed those ideas either.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Nope, but I also am not uncomfortable with gender neutral spaces.

Understood. I don't have a problem with that either, to a certain extent. But some women prefer not to have such spaces be their living quarters. I only ask because you seem to be dismissive of the desire or need for such spaces by other women.

I think your supposition that a transgender person "Jessica standing there with her wang dangling out." tells me all I need to know about your experience with those who are transgender. The idea that one is comfortable with their anatomy is patently false. This is why they are transgender in the first place. Many have horrible body image issues, and are not going to feel comfortable being "exposed" to anyone.

I'm not saying Jessica did it on purpose. I'm just saying, living in dorms and tight living quarters for long enough usually results in seeing one another naked or close to it eventually even if it was unintentional.

Transgender people have been sharing spaces (dorms, locker rooms, restrooms) with us for decades with little to no notice. As far as restrooms, dorm rooms, locker rooms being co-ed, I generally have no problem with it provided everyone has some privacy. Stall doors, partitions in locker rooms, and restroom doors in dorms provide this reasonable level of privacy that everyone in the situation appreciates, including the transgender person.

I think some of the privacy issues can be mitigated in a bathroom for instance. I think locker rooms, while possible, are not typically done this way and present more challenges and more expense. Dorm rooms are much different. There's just a different level of comfort and privacy that is reasonably expected there.

[channonc 466]

Nope, but I also am not uncomfortable with gender neutral spaces.

Understood. I don't have a problem with that either, to a certain extent. But some women prefer not to have such spaces be their living quarters. I only ask because you seem to be dismissive of the desire or need for such spaces by other women.

I think your supposition that a transgender person "Jessica standing there with her wang dangling out." tells me all I need to know about your experience with those who are transgender. The idea that one is comfortable with their anatomy is patently false. This is why they are transgender in the first place. Many have horrible body image issues, and are not going to feel comfortable being "exposed" to anyone.

I'm not saying Jessica did it on purpose. I'm just saying, living in dorms and tight living quarters for long enough usually results in seeing one another naked or close to it eventually even if it was unintentional.

Transgender people have been sharing spaces (dorms, locker rooms, restrooms) with us for decades with little to no notice. As far as restrooms, dorm rooms, locker rooms being co-ed, I generally have no problem with it provided everyone has some privacy. Stall doors, partitions in locker rooms, and restroom doors in dorms provide this reasonable level of privacy that everyone in the situation appreciates, including the transgender person.

I think some of the privacy issues can be mitigated in a bathroom for instance. I think locker rooms, while possible, are not typically done this way and present more challenges and more expense. Dorm rooms are much different. There's just a different level of comfort and privacy that is reasonably expected there.

Not being dismissive at all, but you are working off the other extreme that I am enigma, which is certainly not true. As far as living situations, again, if someone presents as female, who am I to question. I wouldn't. But you are also assuming that a transgender person would feel comfortable living with a complete stranger as well. My guess is that the situation is incredibly personal and not one that someone who is transgender is just going to reveal (or in your mind "display") to just anyone. I just think that the situation would be rare and could be dealt with on a situation by situation basis if someone feels uncomfortable. Mandating that you must present or be inspected to prove your gender is not something I would wish upon anyone. Again, I just don't see this situation as being any different as any of the other above scenarios I presented earlier. You could be a roommate with someone who has homicidal tendencies, how is that not more of a problem? What if someone is suicidal and is constantly threatening to take their own life? Those are situations with which there is much more risk and danger.

In terms of locker rooms partitions... it wouldn't have to be everywhere, but there could be a few designated private spaces. Frankly, when I shower in a locker room, I usually end up changing in the shower stall. I am usually mostly clothed when I come out (maybe don't have on my jacket or have put on socks/shoes).

Again, I think you are over blowing this situation. JMO.