Mikey 16,638 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Forensics may tell us what happened, maybe even to some extent tell when it happened. These forensics don't reveal who, if anybody other than Gray himself, is responsible for Gray's death. Our justice system does not use a shotgun approach such as "hang 'em all, because one of 'em probably did it". With absolutely no evidence pointing to a given individual's guilt there is no possible way to convict one of these policemen. You can at the very least convict every single one of them that knew he wasn't belted in and did nothing about it with misconduct in office. You could possibly even convict of the charge of criminal negligent manslaughter, which has a maximum 3-year sentence. Gray's history of feigning or causing injury to himself to avoid jail is another unknown. For all anyone knows, Gray could have stepped up on his bench and done an intentional header onto the van floor. "Similar to a shallow water diving accident" as noted in the above report.. The examiner concluded that Gray could not have caused this on his own within that environment. And a bench in a cramped police van is not the same as diving off a pier into shallow water head first. If you think the evidence provides a smoking gun, fine. The problem is the smoking gun has no fingerprints on it. Until and unless blame can be placed on some individual "beyond the shadow of a doubt" these accused are legally innocent. The fingerprints are the knowledge that they had a man shackled hand and foot unsecured in the back of moving police van, against department policy and basic understanding of driving safety. If there was someone among the six that somehow didn't realize Gray was unrestrained, then you can let them off the hook. Apparently the judge felt that who did or did not realize what is so unclear that none deserve to be convicted. The prosecutor blew this case, if indeed there ever was a viable case. Persons simply cannot be convicted without solid evidence against them. The prosecution failed to present such evidence and the accused were quite properly acquitted. "One of 'em had to do it" cannot put anybody in jail, and rightfully so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,125 Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 Damn. And these are the same folks that love to ridicule BLM for their "hands up" slogan. What irony. The "Hands Up" slogan is worthy of ridicule, it never happened. In this case, a sitting judge found these three not guilty. I don't see any link between these cases and Michael Brown's getting shot while attacking a police officer but I suppose if one is grasping at straws he might try to make a straw where none exists. Don't try to confuse some folks w/ the facts. They just ignore it. The " cause " is all that matters. The act of defiance is itself what drives some folks to get up every day. If there's nothing to bitch and whine about, they have no purpose in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,499 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Forensics may tell us what happened, maybe even to some extent tell when it happened. These forensics don't reveal who, if anybody other than Gray himself, is responsible for Gray's death. Our justice system does not use a shotgun approach such as "hang 'em all, because one of 'em probably did it". With absolutely no evidence pointing to a given individual's guilt there is no possible way to convict one of these policemen. You can at the very least convict every single one of them that knew he wasn't belted in and did nothing about it with misconduct in office. You could possibly even convict of the charge of criminal negligent manslaughter, which has a maximum 3-year sentence. Gray's history of feigning or causing injury to himself to avoid jail is another unknown. For all anyone knows, Gray could have stepped up on his bench and done an intentional header onto the van floor. "Similar to a shallow water diving accident" as noted in the above report.. The examiner concluded that Gray could not have caused this on his own within that environment. And a bench in a cramped police van is not the same as diving off a pier into shallow water head first. If you think the evidence provides a smoking gun, fine. The problem is the smoking gun has no fingerprints on it. Until and unless blame can be placed on some individual "beyond the shadow of a doubt" these accused are legally innocent. The fingerprints are the knowledge that they had a man shackled hand and foot unsecured in the back of moving police van, against department policy and basic understanding of driving safety. If there was someone among the six that somehow didn't realize Gray was unrestrained, then you can let them off the hook. Apparently the judge felt that who did or did not realize what is so unclear that none deserve to be convicted. The prosecutor blew this case, if indeed there ever was a viable case. Persons simply cannot be convicted without solid evidence against them. The prosecution failed to present such evidence and the accused were quite properly acquitted. "One of 'em had to do it" cannot put anybody in jail, and rightfully so. And I am saying the judges made an error in judgment. They do that sometimes. Sometimes there is a miscarriage of justice. Just because a judge says so doesn't mean we should always just shrug and say, "well, that's the way it goes." I think there was enough circumstantial evidence to at least convict them of misconduct in office if not criminal negligent manslaughter. Frankly, if an officer doesn't have the walking around sense to seat belt someone shackled hand and foot into an open police van and couldn't foresee possible serious injury resulting if they didn't, I'm not sure I want that person with the authority to use a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFAN78 3,911 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-goodson-trial-day5-20160615-story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,499 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 http://www.baltimore...0615-story.html But the new evidence shows that, at a meeting last year, a police investigator noted that Allan suggested at one point that Gray's death was an accident. I'd like to know the context of this. Was this a preliminary opinion prior to a thorough examination? Did she actually use the word "accident" or a synonym thereof, or was it just a casual comment early on that someone took as an accident being implied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,125 Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 http://www.baltimore...0615-story.html "The word 'accident' never crossed my lips to anyone, other than to say, 'This is not an accident,'" she said on the stand last week. But the new evidence shows that, at a meeting last year, a police investigator noted that Allan suggested at one point that Gray's death was an accident. Wow... it almost reads as if her opinion was changed. That can't be right, can it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,499 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 http://www.baltimore...0615-story.html "The word 'accident' never crossed my lips to anyone, other than to say, 'This is not an accident,'" she said on the stand last week. But the new evidence shows that, at a meeting last year, a police investigator noted that Allan suggested at one point that Gray's death was an accident. Wow... it almost reads as if her opinion was changed. That can't be right, can it ? Or, as I mentioned above, she made a remark early on before a thorough examination that it could be a <synomym of accident>. Without context, it's hard to know whether this is meaningful at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,125 Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 Agree on the context part, but then wouldn't that just be ... Oh, I don't know, nothing to report about in the first place ? Either there's something to this, or ... it's just kinda silly nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFAN78 3,911 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-donta-allen-role-20160609-story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,499 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 http://www.baltimore...0609-story.html Well, this is beginning to look less like a verdict based on what the accused did or didn't do and more of one where the prosecution screwed up so much they manufactured their own doubt for the judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,125 Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 http://www.baltimore...0609-story.html - Allen said he thought there was "a dope fiend" on the other side of the divider purposefully banging his head, four or five times. "It was like — he wasn't doing it hard and [expletive], but he was definitely banging himself in the head. I know he was." Allen also said that it was a "smooth ride." In another document, prosecutors say that Allen told them that police found drugs on him, though he would later be released without charges. What a hot mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,499 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I can see why the prosecution wasn't calling him as a witness. He gave completely contradictory statements to them. I'll admit I don't know the rules of exculpatory evidence though. It would seem he's just as unreliable to the defense. But I suppose they have to give them the info and let them decide whether to take a chance putting him on the stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFAN78 3,911 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 The defense rests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17-16 21 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I work for a public utility company and have for ten plus years. In these years I have worked in rain, sleet, storms, extreme heat, extreme cold, darkness, and other such conditions. I have also worked when I was sick, lacking sleep, distracted as result of things away from my job as well as frustrated from work. I know there wee times when my work did not meet standards and mistakes were made. I don't know of any injuries or deaths to the public or co-workers, thank God. But, freaky things are always possible. I am not a criminal and would never want to hurt anyone, but I am not perfect 24/7 365. I am so thankful that America has a justice system that puts the burden of proof on the prosecution and everyone is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Verdicts derived from evidence and not emotion, politic, or public pressure. Our system is designed to where guilty will walk before innocent serve time. It is not perfect but it is still the best I know of. I also believe ALL people in America have benefited from this great(but not perfect) system. I don't know what went on in that van, and doubt anyone does. But I pray we never change our justice system where folks are sent to prison without proof without reasonable doubt for specific violation of the law. There will always be cases like this one. If there are none, it means many innocent citizens are not getting justice. I just pray our nation could stop the infighting. It breaks my heart to read some of these post and the anger and venom spewed between folks basically wanting the same ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,393 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Damn. And these are the same folks that love to ridicule BLM for their "hands up" slogan. What irony. The "Hands Up" slogan is worthy of ridicule, it never happened. In this case, a sitting judge found these three not guilty. I don't see any link between these cases and Michael Brown's getting shot while attacking a police officer but I suppose if one is grasping at straws he might try to make a straw where none exists. Yeah, and you guys are arguing that Eddie Gray didn't have his neck broken in the back of the van. It was a smooooth ride. That's my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,393 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Forensics may tell us what happened, maybe even to some extent tell when it happened. These forensics don't reveal who, if anybody other than Gray himself, is responsible for Gray's death. Our justice system does not use a shotgun approach such as "hang 'em all, because one of 'em probably did it". With absolutely no evidence pointing to a given individual's guilt there is no possible way to convict one of these policemen. You can at the very least convict every single one of them that knew he wasn't belted in and did nothing about it with misconduct in office. You could possibly even convict of the charge of criminal negligent manslaughter, which has a maximum 3-year sentence. Gray's history of feigning or causing injury to himself to avoid jail is another unknown. For all anyone knows, Gray could have stepped up on his bench and done an intentional header onto the van floor. "Similar to a shallow water diving accident" as noted in the above report.. The examiner concluded that Gray could not have caused this on his own within that environment. And a bench in a cramped police van is not the same as diving off a pier into shallow water head first. If you think the evidence provides a smoking gun, fine. The problem is the smoking gun has no fingerprints on it. Until and unless blame can be placed on some individual "beyond the shadow of a doubt" these accused are legally innocent. The fingerprints are the knowledge that they had a man shackled hand and foot unsecured in the back of moving police van, against department policy and basic understanding of driving safety. If there was someone among the six that somehow didn't realize Gray was unrestrained, then you can let them off the hook. Apparently the judge felt that who did or did not realize what is so unclear that none deserve to be convicted. The prosecutor blew this case, if indeed there ever was a viable case. Persons simply cannot be convicted without solid evidence against them. The prosecution failed to present such evidence and the accused were quite properly acquitted. "One of 'em had to do it" cannot put anybody in jail, and rightfully so. Yeah, a guy with a broken neck that was ruled a homicide. No viable case here. :-\ You remind me of the black people who insisted OJ was innocent. After all, he was acquitted, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cole256 17,084 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I work for a public utility company and have for ten plus years. In these years I have worked in rain, sleet, storms, extreme heat, extreme cold, darkness, and other such conditions. I have also worked when I was sick, lacking sleep, distracted as result of things away from my job as well as frustrated from work. I know there wee times when my work did not meet standards and mistakes were made. I don't know of any injuries or deaths to the public or co-workers, thank God. But, freaky things are always possible. I am not a criminal and would never want to hurt anyone, but I am not perfect 24/7 365. I am so thankful that America has a justice system that puts the burden of proof on the prosecution and everyone is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Verdicts derived from evidence and not emotion, politic, or public pressure. Our system is designed to where guilty will walk before innocent serve time. It is not perfect but it is still the best I know of. I also believe ALL people in America have benefited from this great(but not perfect) system. I don't know what went on in that van, and doubt anyone does. But I pray we never change our justice system where folks are sent to prison without proof without reasonable doubt for specific violation of the law. There will always be cases like this one. If there are none, it means many innocent citizens are not getting justice. I just pray our nation could stop the infighting. It breaks my heart to read some of these post and the anger and venom spewed between folks basically wanting the same ends. Yeah if it worked like that for everyone it would be great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFAN78 3,911 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I work for a public utility company and have for ten plus years. In these years I have worked in rain, sleet, storms, extreme heat, extreme cold, darkness, and other such conditions. I have also worked when I was sick, lacking sleep, distracted as result of things away from my job as well as frustrated from work. I know there wee times when my work did not meet standards and mistakes were made. I don't know of any injuries or deaths to the public or co-workers, thank God. But, freaky things are always possible. I am not a criminal and would never want to hurt anyone, but I am not perfect 24/7 365. I am so thankful that America has a justice system that puts the burden of proof on the prosecution and everyone is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Verdicts derived from evidence and not emotion, politic, or public pressure. Our system is designed to where guilty will walk before innocent serve time. It is not perfect but it is still the best I know of. I also believe ALL people in America have benefited from this great(but not perfect) system. I don't know what went on in that van, and doubt anyone does. But I pray we never change our justice system where folks are sent to prison without proof without reasonable doubt for specific violation of the law. There will always be cases like this one. If there are none, it means many innocent citizens are not getting justice. I just pray our nation could stop the infighting. It breaks my heart to read some of these post and the anger and venom spewed between folks basically wanting the same ends. Nice post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFAN78 3,911 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Damn. And these are the same folks that love to ridicule BLM for their "hands up" slogan. What irony. The "Hands Up" slogan is worthy of ridicule, it never happened. In this case, a sitting judge found these three not guilty. I don't see any link between these cases and Michael Brown's getting shot while attacking a police officer but I suppose if one is grasping at straws he might try to make a straw where none exists. Yeah, and you guys are arguing that Eddie Freddie Gray didn't have his neck broken in the back of the van. It was a smooooth ride. That's my point. Given evidence presented in court, you may be right on both points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey 16,638 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I work for a public utility company and have for ten plus years. In these years I have worked in rain, sleet, storms, extreme heat, extreme cold, darkness, and other such conditions. I have also worked when I was sick, lacking sleep, distracted as result of things away from my job as well as frustrated from work. I know there wee times when my work did not meet standards and mistakes were made. I don't know of any injuries or deaths to the public or co-workers, thank God. But, freaky things are always possible. I am not a criminal and would never want to hurt anyone, but I am not perfect 24/7 365. I am so thankful that America has a justice system that puts the burden of proof on the prosecution and everyone is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Verdicts derived from evidence and not emotion, politic, or public pressure. Our system is designed to where guilty will walk before innocent serve time. It is not perfect but it is still the best I know of. I also believe ALL people in America have benefited from this great(but not perfect) system. I don't know what went on in that van, and doubt anyone does. But I pray we never change our justice system where folks are sent to prison without proof without reasonable doubt for specific violation of the law. There will always be cases like this one. If there are none, it means many innocent citizens are not getting justice. I just pray our nation could stop the infighting. It breaks my heart to read some of these post and the anger and venom spewed between folks basically wanting the same ends. Right to the point. There is no evidence in this case, other than Gray died in transit. That's not enough to send someone to jail when who did what and when is completely in doubt. The most reliable evidence, and that's from very shaky testimony, is that Gray harmed himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,393 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Obviously, there was some false testimony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey 16,638 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Obviously, there was some false testimony. If so, it's up to the prosecution to discredit said testimony. Since they could not, there's nothing "obvious" about it being false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUUSN 823 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Would you bound your child's hands and feet and then put them in the back of a van unrestrained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,393 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Obviously, there was some false testimony. If so, it's up to the prosecution to discredit said testimony. Since they could not, there's nothing "obvious" about it being false. Live person enters van. Dead person come out. Seems pretty obvious to me. In fact, in seems to me that one would have to be pretty determined to believe there's no responsibility associated with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,393 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 But ya'll need to remember this when the next investigation exonerates Hillary from any wrongdoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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