Freddie Gray case: Strike 3 for prosecution

[TitanTiger 20,499]

You're just wrong bud. Just because someone is dead, nobody can be found guilty of a crime if there is NO EVIDENCE.

Yes, there is evidence. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence. Similar to your decision to only harp on the murder charge, you are overstating this aspect of things as well.

You're making it an emotional issue and refuse to accept the reality that a crime can only be charged if there is evidence to support the charge. The coroner may legitimately believe it was a homicide and, if it was, it is STILL the prosecutors responsibility to prove it and that's what you're railing against. You're actually making my original point that Marilyn Moseby sucks at her job.

I don't really care about Moseby.

And I'm not making it emotional. I am looking at a case where a guy gets thrashed to a point where his spine is almost severed from his head, among other traumatic injuries, combining that with the fact that he was in police custody and was not seatbelted in violation of department policy and using my brain to do the process of elimination:

Gray did it to himself.

It was an act of God that his spine was 80% detached at the neck and he had three broken vertebrae

At some point the police lost track of him and he was out of their custody.

Another criminal in the van assaulted Gray

His injuries were the result of being shackled by the hands and feet and he was placed in an open police van without restraint (which is not only a violation of basic common sense, but of department policy). As a result of the way the van was driven and him being unable to brace himself as the van jostled around, he sustained severe and traumatic injuries resulting in his death.

Now, what degree of penalty one wishes to assign to that is certainly up for debate. But to look at all that and say there is no evidence is ludicrous.

[TheBlueVue 177]

The primary charges were 2nd degree murder and manslaughter bud, and, the fact is, there is no evidence to support ANY of them.

It doesn't matter what the primary charges were. All the charges were options. Even if the prosecutor didn't charge him with 2nd degree murder and manslaughter at all, it makes no difference on the other charges.

Just because Freddie Gray is dead does not mean the guy who drove him to jail murdered him.

Of course there is evidence. The medical examiner ruled his death a homicide:

Freddie Gray suffered a single "high-energy injury" to his neck and spine — most likely caused when the police van in which he was riding suddenly decelerated, according to a copy of the autopsy report obtained by The Baltimore Sun.

The state medical examiner's office concluded that Gray's death could not be ruled an accident, and was instead a homicide, because officers failed to follow safety procedures "through acts of omission."

Though Gray was loaded into the van on his belly, the medical examiner surmised that he may have gotten to his feet and was thrown into the wall during an abrupt change in direction. He was not belted in, but his wrists and ankles were shackled, putting him "at risk for an unsupported fall during acceleration or deceleration of the van."

http://www.baltimore...0623-story.html

We know that the police shackled his hands and feet leaving him unable to brace himself as the vehicle drove around accelerating and decelerating, hitting bumps or making turns. We know that the police officers did not follow department policy in their decision not to seatbelt him in. We know Freddie Gray wasn't driving the vehicle and we know that none of the officers are contending that he did this to himself. Finally, we know that there is no allegation by any of the accused that at any time Gray was out of their custody, so this wasn't the result of another suspect who assaulted him for instance.

This combined with the medical examiner's report is what circumstantial evidence is and people are convicted on it all the time.

And while it may be true that "just because Freddie Gray is dead does not mean the guy who drove him to jail murdered him," it doesn't mean that the officers involved (driver included) shouldn't bear some criminal responsibility for his death. So stop harping on only the most serious charges as if that somehow makes your argument for you.

You're just wrong bud. Just because someone is dead, nobody can be found guilty of a crime if there is NO EVIDENCE. You're making it an emotional issue and refuse to accept the reality that a crime can only be charged if there is evidence to support the charge. The coroner may legitimately believe it was a homicide and, if it was, it is STILL the prosecutors responsibility to prove it and that's what you're railing against. You're actually making my original point that Marilyn Moseby sucks at her job.

You sound as if you don't believe a crime was committed. Do you?

I don't know but regardless of what I think, at this point, there is no evidence of a crime having been committed other than the guy is dead. Unless and until something can be proved, nobody is going to be found guilty.

[Mikey 16,638]

I have been thinking all along that these defendants (or their lawyers) were smart to choose a bench trial. With insufficient evidence against any of the accused, the only way they could be convicted was by an emotional jury. Theoretically at least, a judge would rule on the evidence and laws and not be influenced by public opinion or emotions.

Was a crime committed? Maybe, but if there is inconclusive evidence the accused have to go free. There have been a lot worse cases than this one in which someone was set free because the prosecution couldn't prove their case.

[alexava 6,973]

I have been thinking all along that these defendants (or their lawyers) were smart to choose a bench trial. With insufficient evidence against any of the accused, the only way they could be convicted was by an emotional jury. Theoretically at least, a judge would rule on the evidence and laws and not be influenced by public opinion or emotions.

Was a crime committed? Maybe, but if there is inconclusive evidence the accused have to go free. There have been a lot worse cases than this one in which someone was set free because the prosecution couldn't prove their case.

Casey Anthony comes to mind.

[augolf1716 21,221]

I have been thinking all along that these defendants (or their lawyers) were smart to choose a bench trial. With insufficient evidence against any of the accused, the only way they could be convicted was by an emotional jury. Theoretically at least, a judge would rule on the evidence and laws and not be influenced by public opinion or emotions.

Was a crime committed? Maybe, but if there is inconclusive evidence the accused have to go free. There have been a lot worse cases than this one in which someone was set free because the prosecution couldn't prove their case.

Casey Anthony comes to mind.

Got that right

[homersapien 11,393]

The primary charges were 2nd degree murder and manslaughter bud, and, the fact is, there is no evidence to support ANY of them.

It doesn't matter what the primary charges were. All the charges were options. Even if the prosecutor didn't charge him with 2nd degree murder and manslaughter at all, it makes no difference on the other charges.

Just because Freddie Gray is dead does not mean the guy who drove him to jail murdered him.

Of course there is evidence. The medical examiner ruled his death a homicide:

Freddie Gray suffered a single "high-energy injury" to his neck and spine — most likely caused when the police van in which he was riding suddenly decelerated, according to a copy of the autopsy report obtained by The Baltimore Sun.

The state medical examiner's office concluded that Gray's death could not be ruled an accident, and was instead a homicide, because officers failed to follow safety procedures "through acts of omission."

Though Gray was loaded into the van on his belly, the medical examiner surmised that he may have gotten to his feet and was thrown into the wall during an abrupt change in direction. He was not belted in, but his wrists and ankles were shackled, putting him "at risk for an unsupported fall during acceleration or deceleration of the van."

http://www.baltimore...0623-story.html

We know that the police shackled his hands and feet leaving him unable to brace himself as the vehicle drove around accelerating and decelerating, hitting bumps or making turns. We know that the police officers did not follow department policy in their decision not to seatbelt him in. We know Freddie Gray wasn't driving the vehicle and we know that none of the officers are contending that he did this to himself. Finally, we know that there is no allegation by any of the accused that at any time Gray was out of their custody, so this wasn't the result of another suspect who assaulted him for instance.

This combined with the medical examiner's report is what circumstantial evidence is and people are convicted on it all the time.

And while it may be true that "just because Freddie Gray is dead does not mean the guy who drove him to jail murdered him," it doesn't mean that the officers involved (driver included) shouldn't bear some criminal responsibility for his death. So stop harping on only the most serious charges as if that somehow makes your argument for you.

You're just wrong bud. Just because someone is dead, nobody can be found guilty of a crime if there is NO EVIDENCE. You're making it an emotional issue and refuse to accept the reality that a crime can only be charged if there is evidence to support the charge. The coroner may legitimately believe it was a homicide and, if it was, it is STILL the prosecutors responsibility to prove it and that's what you're railing against. You're actually making my original point that Marilyn Moseby sucks at her job.

You sound as if you don't believe a crime was committed. Do you?

I don't know but regardless of what I think, at this point, there is no evidence of a crime having been committed other than the guy is dead. Unless and until something can be proved, nobody is going to be found guilty.

And what did the coroner say again?

[AUFAN78 3,911]

I've heard there are reports that the defense provided video evidence there was no rough ride. If true, that would be damning to the prosecution for this particular officer.

[AURaptor 1,125]

I've heard there are reports that the defense provided video evidence there was no rough ride. If true, that would be damning to the prosecution for this particular officer.

His neck got injured some how. Any word on where it's thought that took place ? And how ?

[Mikey 16,638]

I've heard there are reports that the defense provided video evidence there was no rough ride. If true, that would be damning to the prosecution for this particular officer.

His neck got injured some how. Any word on where it's thought that took place ? And how ?

Who knows? Possibly in a fight before the police even got there. There's a reason people shouldn't be convicted without proof that they committed a crime.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

I've heard there are reports that the defense provided video evidence there was no rough ride. If true, that would be damning to the prosecution for this particular officer.

His neck got injured some how. Any word on where it's thought that took place ? And how ?

Who knows? Possibly in a fight before the police even got there. There's a reason people shouldn't be convicted without proof that they committed a crime.

You don't ride a bicycle with your spine 80% severed from your head. Basic common sense tells you this didn't happen in a fight before the police got there. And it runs completely counter to the forensics revealed by the medical examiner.

[homersapien 11,393]

I've heard there are reports that the defense provided video evidence there was no rough ride. If true, that would be damning to the prosecution for this particular officer.

His neck got injured some how. Any word on where it's thought that took place ? And how ?

Who knows? Possibly in a fight before the police even got there. There's a reason people shouldn't be convicted without proof that they committed a crime.

:-\

[TheBlueVue 177]

I've heard there are reports that the defense provided video evidence there was no rough ride. If true, that would be damning to the prosecution for this particular officer.

His neck got injured some how. Any word on where it's thought that took place ? And how ?

Who knows? Possibly in a fight before the police even got there. There's a reason people shouldn't be convicted without proof that they committed a crime.

You don't ride a bicycle with your spine 80% severed from your head. Basic common sense tells you this didn't happen in a fight before the police got there. And it runs completely counter to the forensics revealed by the medical examiner.

What were the forensics revealed by the medical examiner? For clarification, are you of the opinion that Cesar Goodson committed a crime? It seems fairly obvious that you are.. That being said, what crime did he commit and what is your evidence that proves it beyond a reasonable doubt? Telling me the guy was fine before the ride and died after it is not evidence my friend - thats simply reporting a sequence of events.

[homersapien 11,393]

Anyone who really wonders what fuels BLM outrage only has to read this thread.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Anyone who really wonders what fuels BLM outrage only has to read this thread.

Yeah, they've proven the law means absolutely nothing to them. So, yeah, I'm sure they're pissed.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

What were the forensics revealed by the medical examiner?

Here you go, with key portions that knock down the idea that his injuries occurred before the arrest:

Freddie Gray suffered a single "high-energy injury" to his neck and spine — most likely caused when the police van in which he was riding suddenly decelerated, according to a copy of the autopsy report obtained by The Baltimore Sun.

The state medical examiner's office concluded that Gray's death could not be ruled an accident, and was instead a homicide, because officers failed to follow safety procedures "through acts of omission."

Though Gray was loaded into the van on his belly, the medical examiner surmised that he may have gotten to his feet and was thrown into the wall during an abrupt change in direction. He was not belted in, but his wrists and ankles were shackled, putting him "at risk for an unsupported fall during acceleration or deceleration of the van."

The medical examiner compared Gray's injury to those seen in shallow-water diving incidents...

...The autopsy details a chronology of the events surrounding Gray's arrest that helped inform the medical examiner's conclusion. The medical examiner relied upon witness statements, videos and an examination of the transport van.

Gray tested positive for opiates and cannabinoid when he was admitted to Maryland Shock Trauma Center, according to the autopsy. The report makes no further reference to the drugs found in his system.

The report does not note any previous injuries to Gray's spine.

In concluding his death was a homicide, Assistant Medical Examiner Carol H. Allan wrote that it was "not an unforeseen event that a vulnerable individual was injured during operation of the vehicle, and that without prompt medical attention, the injury would prove fatal."

While bystanders captured his arrest on video showing Gray moaning for help, the autopsy concluded that he suffered no injuries suggesting a neck hold or stemming from physical restraint. Allan noted that Gray could be seen bearing weight on his legs and speaking as he was loaded into the van.

Officers placed Gray on a metal bench running from front to back along the outside wall of the van. He was not belted in, which is a violation of Baltimore police policy. After the doors were closed, he could be heard yelling and banging, "causing the van to rock," the autopsy noted.

The van made several stops. The second stop occurred a few blocks away on Baker Street, where officers placed an identification band and leg restraints on Gray.

"Reportedly, Mr. Gray was still yelling and shaking the van," the medical examiner wrote. "He was removed from the van and placed on the ground in a kneeling position, facing the van doors, while ankle cuffs were placed, and then slid onto the floor of the van, belly down and head first, reportedly still verbally and physically active."

Authorities previously said the third stop in the area of Fremont and Mosher streets was captured on video, which showed the van driver, Goodson, getting out and looking in the back.

During a fourth stop, at Dolphin Street and Druid Hill Avenue, authorities said, Goodson called for assistance, at which point Porter got involved.

"The assisting officer opened the doors and observed Mr. Gray lying belly down on the floor with his head facing the cabin compartment, and reportedly he was asking for help, saying he couldn't breathe, couldn't get up, and needed a medic," the autopsy says. "The officer assisted Mr. Gray to the bench and the van continued on its way."

The van made a fifth stop at North and Pennsylvania avenues to pick up a second arrestee, where Mosby has said White helped check on Gray.

"Mr. Gray was found kneeling on the floor, facing the front of the van and slumped over to his right against the bench, and reportedly appeared lethargic with minimal responses to direct questions," the report says.

The medical examiner concluded that Gray's most significant injury was to the lower left part of his head. Given the descriptions of his demeanor and positioning in the van, it most likely occurred between the second and fourth stops made by the van driver, and possibly before the third stop, according to the autopsy.

While it's possible Gray was hurt while lying on the floor and moving back and forth, Allan determined that his body likely couldn't have moved in that position with enough force to cause his injuries.

Allan surmised that Gray could have gotten to his feet using the bench and opposite wall. With his hands and ankles restrained, and unable to see out of the van and anticipate turns, she said, he was at a high risk for an unsupported fall.

She also noted the possibility that Gray's neck injury occurred "with him in a partially reclining position or as he was changing his position on the floor of the van," if the van moved abruptly enough.

The injury to Gray's spinal cord would have caused loss of function of his limbs, and would have "direct effects" on his ability to breathe, according to the autopsy.

Police had said in a court filing that the second passenger reported hearing Gray banging and kicking through the metal divider. Allan said that would not have been possible given Gray's injuries, but he may have been suffering a seizure at the time, which could have caused the noise, she said.

http://www.baltimore...0623-story.html

For clarification, are you of the opinion that Cesar Goodson committed a crime? It seems fairly obvious that you are.. That being said, what crime did he commit and what is your evidence that proves it beyond a reasonable doubt? Telling me the guy was fine before the ride and died after it is not evidence my friend - thats simply reporting a sequence of events.

We have the above results of the autopsy, combined with video and witness testimony of the arrest and stops. We have Goodson on video going to the back of the van after the third stop and looking inside. He was aware Mr. Gray wasn't belted in. Every officer that was aware he wasn't secured in the vehicle and did nothing about it is at least guilty of misconduct in office, unless it can be shown they raised objections and were overruled and prevented from belting him in by a superior. There is no testimony to that effect on the record.

And it isn't just telling you "a guy is fine before a ride and died after." It's telling you a guy is fine before custody and suffers such a traumatic injury that would sever his spine 80% of the way from his head. And that medical examiner says that he couldn't have done it to himself because he wouldn't be able to generate enough force to create such a traumatic injury. And that the autopsy showed zero signs of a previous spinal injury. And we know from video that the apprehension of Mr. Gray wasn't forceful enough to cause it, nor are Mr. Gray's actions indicative of such an injury until somewhere between the 2nd and 4th stops. It's knowing that every one of these officers violated department policy (and basic common sense) in not strapping him in - and that is compounded by the fact that they shackled his feet and hands making him even more vulnerable that being unbelted would normally make him. It's telling you that there is no evidence or even a contention by the defendants that someone else did this to him or that he was ever out of their custody and control.

It's all of this stuff combined that makes it evidence. It's not merely a sequence of events. It's a sequence of events combined with known facts, witness testimony, video and the results of the medical examiners report.

[homersapien 11,393]

Anyone who really wonders what fuels BLM outrage only has to read this thread.

Yeah, they've proven the law means absolutely nothing to them. So, yeah, I'm sure they're pissed.

Actually, they probably do feel the law "means nothing to them". I would.

[cptau 169]

The video from the police van camera indicates no rough ride.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trial-of-van-driver-in-freddie-gray-case-continues-in-baltimore/2016/06/13/f148075e-3197-11e6-95c0-2a6873031302_story.html

Gray was a habitual offender who offen feigned injury to avoid jail by being sent to a hospital. He could have injured himself to just avoid jail and to obtain money. If so he succeeded.

The city and police department has blame in that they sent these police officers out to arrest drug pushers like gray. They also gave the officers vans that made it impossible to secure people under arrest without putting the officers at risk. Officers can not belt in people under arrest without risking being bitten or spit upon by these people many of whom are HIV positive.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

The video from the police van camera indicates no rough ride.

https://www.washingt...1302_story.html

Gray was a habitual offender who offen feigned injury to avoid jail by being sent to a hospital. He could have injured himself to just avoid jail and to obtain money. If so he succeeded.

The medical examiner determined that Gray was not injured prior to being in police custody and that he could not have produced the force needed to cause such a traumatic injury that almost created an internal decapitation on his own in such a confined area while being shackled hand and foot.

Something is fishy.

The city and police department has blame in that they sent these police officers out to arrest drug pushers like gray. They also gave the officers vans that made it impossible to secure people under arrest without putting the officers at risk. Officers can not belt in people under arrest without risking being bitten or spit upon by these people many of whom are HIV positive.

Then you put on protective gear (safety glasses, gloves) and one person immobilizes them while the other straps them in.

[cptau 169]

The video from the police van camera indicates no rough ride.

https://www.washingt...1302_story.html

Gray was a habitual offender who offen feigned injury to avoid jail by being sent to a hospital. He could have injured himself to just avoid jail and to obtain money. If so he succeeded.

The medical examiner determined that Gray was not injured prior to being in police custody and that he could not have produced the force needed to cause such a traumatic injury that almost created an internal decapitation on his own in such a confined area while being shackled hand and foot.

Something is fishy.

The city and police department has blame in that they sent these police officers out to arrest drug pushers like gray. They also gave the officers vans that made it impossible to secure people under arrest without putting the officers at risk. Officers can not belt in people under arrest without risking being bitten or spit upon by these people many of whom are HIV positive.

Then you put on protective gear (safety glasses, gloves) and one person immobilizes them while the other straps them in.

Would you want to belt them in? Even with body armor there are gaps needed for movement. The vans need a redesign. Unfortunately at tax payer expense. Or just reduce the number of arrests and use patrol cars.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

The video from the police van camera indicates no rough ride.

https://www.washingt...1302_story.html

Gray was a habitual offender who offen feigned injury to avoid jail by being sent to a hospital. He could have injured himself to just avoid jail and to obtain money. If so he succeeded.

The medical examiner determined that Gray was not injured prior to being in police custody and that he could not have produced the force needed to cause such a traumatic injury that almost created an internal decapitation on his own in such a confined area while being shackled hand and foot.

Something is fishy.

The city and police department has blame in that they sent these police officers out to arrest drug pushers like gray. They also gave the officers vans that made it impossible to secure people under arrest without putting the officers at risk. Officers can not belt in people under arrest without risking being bitten or spit upon by these people many of whom are HIV positive.

Then you put on protective gear (safety glasses, gloves) and one person immobilizes them while the other straps them in.

Would you want to belt them in? Even with body armor there are gaps needed for movement. The vans need a redesign. Unfortunately at tax payer expense. Or just reduce the number of arrests and use patrol cars.

Would I want to? No. But it is department policy. And if I'm going to shackle a guy's hands and feet, I better figure out some way to keep him from ricocheting off the interior in the case of an accident or having to slam on the brakes.

[Mikey 16,638]

I've heard there are reports that the defense provided video evidence there was no rough ride. If true, that would be damning to the prosecution for this particular officer.

His neck got injured some how. Any word on where it's thought that took place ? And how ?

Who knows? Possibly in a fight before the police even got there. There's a reason people shouldn't be convicted without proof that they committed a crime.

You don't ride a bicycle with your spine 80% severed from your head. Basic common sense tells you this didn't happen in a fight before the police got there. And it runs completely counter to the forensics revealed by the medical examiner.

Forensics may tell us what happened, maybe even to some extent tell when it happened. These forensics don't reveal who, if anybody other than Gray himself, is responsible for Gray's death. Our justice system does not use a shotgun approach such as "hang 'em all, because one of 'em probably did it". With absolutely no evidence pointing to a given individual's guilt there is no possible way to convict one of these policemen.

Gray's history of feigning or causing injury to himself to avoid jail is another unknown. For all anyone knows, Gray could have stepped up on his bench and done an intentional header onto the van floor. "Similar to a shallow water diving accident" as noted in the above report..

If you think the evidence provides a smoking gun, fine. The problem is the smoking gun has no fingerprints on it. Until and unless blame can be placed on some individual "beyond the shadow of a doubt" these accused are legally innocent.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Forensics may tell us what happened, maybe even to some extent tell when it happened. These forensics don't reveal who, if anybody other than Gray himself, is responsible for Gray's death. Our justice system does not use a shotgun approach such as "hang 'em all, because one of 'em probably did it". With absolutely no evidence pointing to a given individual's guilt there is no possible way to convict one of these policemen.

You can at the very least convict every single one of them that knew he wasn't belted in and did nothing about it with misconduct in office. You could possibly even convict of the charge of criminal negligent manslaughter, which has a maximum 3-year sentence.

Gray's history of feigning or causing injury to himself to avoid jail is another unknown. For all anyone knows, Gray could have stepped up on his bench and done an intentional header onto the van floor. "Similar to a shallow water diving accident" as noted in the above report..

The examiner concluded that Gray could not have caused this on his own within that environment. And a bench in a cramped police van is not the same as diving off a pier into shallow water head first.

If you think the evidence provides a smoking gun, fine. The problem is the smoking gun has no fingerprints on it. Until and unless blame can be placed on some individual "beyond the shadow of a doubt" these accused are legally innocent.

The fingerprints are the knowledge that they had a man shackled hand and foot unsecured in the back of moving police van, against department policy and basic understanding of driving safety. If there was someone among the six that somehow didn't realize Gray was unrestrained, then you can let them off the hook.

[homersapien 11,393]

Damn.

And these are the same folks that love to ridicule BLM for their "hands up" slogan.

What irony.

[cole256 17,084]

Damn.

And these are the same folks that love to ridicule BLM for their "hands up" slogan.

What irony.

And the same with their particular stances with trayvon Martin, Eric garner,Tamir Rice, etc. I can't stand Trump but.....group. Let a guy have Muhammad in his name commit any crime terrorist but let that situation flip they were on meds and other excuses.

[Mikey 16,638]

Damn.

And these are the same folks that love to ridicule BLM for their "hands up" slogan.

What irony.

The "Hands Up" slogan is worthy of ridicule, it never happened. In this case, a sitting judge found these three not guilty. I don't see any link between these cases and Michael Brown's getting shot while attacking a police officer but I suppose if one is grasping at straws he might try to make a straw where none exists.