Malzhan Growth

[oracle79 3,569]

4 hours ago, Tiger said:

You ideally don't want to waste a down with a playcall that you didn't spend the time to think through on one end, but on the other you don't want to telegraph what you're doing to the DC.

This is why GM's offense is so much better running through the scripted play list prepared in advance of game situations, and so much less effective when he's trying to do it from scratch and reading the defense.  The offense knows what they are running, and executes it before the defense gets ready and keeps them on their heels.

5 hours ago, McLoofus said:

Okay, so when he has a bunch of crap players out there who aren't able to execute the plays, he's supposed to stay committed to tempo and make those 3 and outs happen faster?

Actually the answer is yes.  Because even crap talent running plays that they know how to execute at a fast pace has a better chance of succeeding than crap talent running plays at a slow pace that are called by a coach with a proven track record of not making the best adjustments to the opposing defense.  Running fast gives you at least a chance that the defense won't be aligned correctly or will misread a play and be out of position giving your crap talent a chance to succeed.

Now if your crap talent can't execute what you're calling, then you've done a piss poor job of coaching them in practice or a piss poor job of putting your players in the best position to succeed based on their talent (not to mention, why do you have crap talent at Auburn in the first place).

[corchjay 5,311]

Thanks guys for all the input in this discussion.  For the most part Gus seems to have the backing of the fan base it seems so he must be growing the way most of us would like.

Also seems the consensus is that he needs to "trust" more.  Whether that be his play call, his players, his asst coaches and I agree with that.  I'm like that in a lot of situations.  I don't trust anyone to cut my grass, wash my car because they won't do it the way I like or how I want it done.  Heck I Hand wash dishes because I don't like how the dishwasher does them.  Lol.

Its tough for a Tiger to change his stripes but expecting perfection is part of the problem as well but when it all comes together.  It's Magic!!

[PigskinPat 2,579]

On 8/21/2017 at 10:45 AM, SCBusPilot said:

I for one would like for Gus to be more creative and unpredictable in the red zone. It seems like every time we got there the last couple of years he went ultra conservative on us. It just hasn't worked against the better teams. 

I guess people see things differently at times, but it seemed like to me many times we would find something that worked and then when we got in the red zone, we'd start substituting a ton and calling some crazy pass plays. Not every time, but it seemed like we often would stray from what brought us down the field.

[AUApostle 7,651]

40 minutes ago, auburnphan said:

but I also think that he was given the offensive genius tab way to early.  DC's after getting tape on his offense had it figured out. Hell, most of us...

Yes...he was an innovator that helped change the game...but in his current role is no longer innovating.

[corchjay 5,311]

9 minutes ago, AUDevil said:

Yes...he was an innovator that helped change the game...but he's not an offensive genius. 

I think your definition in the first part of your post is exactly what an offensive genius is.  

[AUApostle 7,651]

3 minutes ago, corchjay said:

I think your definition in the first part of your post is exactly what an offensive genius is.  

In my professional terms... There are architects that have pioneered amazing breakthroughs in building technologies and design strategies.  They are not necessarily the most gifted architectural designers.  

 

*btw... I edited my original comment as you were typing yours

[corchjay 5,311]

Just now, AUDevil said:

In my professional terms... There are architects that have pioneered amazing breakthroughs in building technologies and design strategies.  They are not necessarily the most gifted architectural designers.  

 

*btw... I edited my original comment as you were typing yours

I understood what you meant but I think you mean he's not adapting as quickly as others

[au701948 1,001]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:59 AM, bigbird said:

To me, he needs to regain that aggression he used to have as an OC...oh yeah, and maybe we should try and run the hurry up...

Yes...as long as he hurries it up!

[ValleyTiger 2,894]

Found it hilarious that this tweet popped up whilst reading this thread...   AND look where they're heading 11/16...

The Hurry Up & Wait tour has officially started! Who's comin' out to see us? Get tickets/VIP packages here: https://t.co/RpGF3H9Yi5 pic.twitter.com/IxBEQkIBfC

— Whiskey Myers (@whiskeymyers) August 22, 2017

 

[meh130 1,043]

IMO, the biggest issue in 2016 was the lack of communication between Sean White and the coaching staff. Sean would not communicate when he was hurting, and the coaches could not see it. Perhaps it was openly communicated from the coaching staff to SW it was on his shoulders, the depth at QB simply could not be trusted. Or perhaps that was the perception of SW. But it seemed to be a disconnect. I do believe that perception existed among all the QBs. In other words, it was not just the perception on SW's part he was indispensable, it was the perception of JJ and JF3 that if Sean came out, and one of them had to come in, AU was in a desperate situation.

The Red Zone issues in 2016 were inexcusable. SW's strength was in the short passing game. His accuracy struggled with the long ball. He was a better short field passer, yet we rarely passed on 1st or 2nd down when we were in the Red Zone. We should have excelled in the Red Zone last year. This was the compete opposite of Nick Marshall, who struggled with accuracy on the short ball (especially slants and crossing routes), but was more accurate on the long ball.

The last part was the complete abandonment of the HUNH and the mass substitution. By Game 3 we had a solid O-Line, H-Back, two solid RBs, a solid QB who was an accurate passer and could execute Zone Read options, and adequate WRs. We should have been able to go up-tempo when we crossed the 50 yard line.

Most of our issues were we had a lack of a short passing game in the playbook. Had we had those plays, and the HUNH, with SW we should have been more productive.

[meh130 1,043]

On 8/21/2017 at 1:23 PM, triangletiger said:

Two things:

1.  As much as possible, have better handle on the players he has and their abilities prior to Game 1 so that is doesn't take us 4 games to figure out who we are.

2.  This has been alluded to already, but improve performance in the 3rd quarter.  We seem to go into a lull in the 3rd quarter.  Whether this is because our opponents make adjustments and we don't, I'm not sure.  But he and his coaches need to figure it out and fix it.  

Both of these are spot-on, especially the first. The Clemson game last year was something to behold, in a bad way. Every team gets the same amount of practice time. We have to be better at player evaluation at all positions.

[meh130 1,043]

On 8/21/2017 at 3:01 PM, DAG said:

You mean the meerkat offense?!

I used to hate the meerkat offense. But I realize it has a purpose. The first purpose is to not substitute so the defense cannot substitute. The second is to line up to force the defense to line up. The third is to provide a chance for the coaches in the press box to observe the defensive alignment, and consider a signaled in play.

A lot of HUNH teams use the meerkat to try to get a better play called. I question using it too much, but after a big play that flips the field, it seems like a great complement to the HUNH to be able to signal in a new play, or better yet, a new series of plays.

[meh130 1,043]

On 8/21/2017 at 3:57 PM, Tiger said:

What would suck is if we spend this much time "developing" Gus and then he uses his on-the-job training here as a way to reach his potential elsewhere after we have gone come this far.

Yep. Is Auburn to Malzahn what Michigan State was to Saban, or Utah to Urban Meyer? And perhaps Vandy to James Franklin.

This is always a risk with a young coach. Dabo and Jimbo seem to be the exception.

[meh130 1,043]

I do think the original Malzahn offense works better at lower levels (i.e., non Power-5) because the speed of the HUNH and the misdirection create more of a mismatch between average offensive players and average defensive players than they do with top offensive players against top defensive players. It leads to a false sense of success. Initially, the new scheme is unknown to opposing defenses, and there is success. But soon, those disciplined, talented defenses learn not to key off of the midirection motions, but to key off of things like what the linemen do after the snap, or what wide receivers do.

Some things continue to work well. A great O-Line and great backs running power running plays (Power, Counter, and Sweep) work regardless. Option plays with dual-threat quarterbacks work regardless, and work better when you have a great O-Line. Traditional passing plays with routes that stress the defense, and real QB read progressions work, especially if you have a line that can pass block. Play action works, especially when you mix it up enough to keep the defense off guard.

I would prefer to see more complexity in the passing routes, in the QB reads, etc., than in the pre-snap motions. I love the idea of pre-snap motions intended to show defensive alignment, to stress the defense in covering the run, or with pre-snap reads. But if we know defenses do not over-react to those motions, we should have alternatives. If no defense respects the WR on the orbit motion on the Statue of Liberty play, why not have the WR running another deep route or a crossing route?

[homersapien 11,393]

On 8/21/2017 at 1:57 PM, ValleyTiger said:

I was reading an article the other day about Matt Canada, and he was explaining how change of pace, fast to slow to fast to slow et al, was even more difficult on defenses. His reasoning was that it kept them guessing and that they could get used to always fast or always slow. Makes even more sense when I hear Casey Dunn and Wilson Bell talk about their struggles with our pace in practice and our guys that have been here it's just second nature. 

Bird, you're a defensive guy, have you experienced that back and forth pace at all?

Still, I agree that it'd be nice to put the throttle down and quit sub'n so friggin much. When we are pacing a team, a glaring thing to me is how ineffective the play after an opposing player "has" an injury. Seems to always happen near the goal line. 

Funny but I've always thought of bird as being offensive.  

[bigbird 60,573]

31 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Funny but I've always thought of bird as being offensive.  

BRING IT ON!

[McLoofus 35,182]

13 hours ago, oracle79 said:

Now if your crap talent can't execute what you're calling, then you've done a piss poor job of coaching them in practice or a piss poor job of putting your players in the best position to succeed based on their talent (not to mention, why do you have crap talent at Auburn in the first place).

I'll forgive Gus if he didn't get a unit comprised almost entirely of freshmen and backups fully prepared to compete in the SEC, especially when many of them weren't even supposed to play much. Kerryon Johnson ended up being one of our primary RBs despite not even being on the depth chart for the season opener. 

As for why that's what the roster looked like, that 2015 squad was a combination of Chizik's 2011 and 2012 classes and freshmen who should have been seniors from those 2011 and 2012 classes. Add the Johnson/Williams/Robinson trifecta, which I won't blame Gus for, and you've got a coach with an incredibly difficult job. 

Now, 2016? No excuses.

[Slammer1 409]

11 hours ago, bigbird said:

BRING IT ON!

Bird, you're just too clever for words. :-)

[McLoofus 35,182]

14 hours ago, auburnphan said:

McLoof-

    When I look back at the successes of the CN and NM offenses, I honestly can not give much credit to Gus.  Those two guys made more broken plays or bad play calls into positive plays by their playmaking abilities rather than the correct play being called in.  

Those guys didn't make mediocre offenses pretty good. They made good offenses transcendent. They didn't make bad play calls positive. They turned good play calls into home runs. I'm sorry, but you are giving those players way too much credit while giving way too little to their coach (and teammates). 

I could easily rattle off a dozen genius play calls in 2010 in key moments. Lutz's catch in the IB, for example. And in 2013, all anyone could talk about- even that national media that supposedly hates Auburn so much- was what a stroke of genius it was for Gus to move to such an unconventional offense early in the season to adapt to the very unique talent he had on hand. That 2013 offense was very, very different than the 2010 one, and Gus was able to make it work not only in the middle of a season, but in the middle of a game. 

Should he have known that he should be running some dinosaur offense that nobody had seen in decades before the season started? I dunno. That seems a lot to ask for a guy who had just taken over the team less than 12 months before kickoff. 

There seems to be a lot of history being rewritten by fans based off of Gus's recent mistakes, just like a lot of his recent mistakes are being forgiven by others because of past glories. I guess it's all natural and human but I still find it curious. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

14 hours ago, auburnphan said:

When I look back at the successes of the CN and NM offenses, I honestly can not give much credit to Gus.

While I can see where you are coming from Re: Cam, you have to keep in mind that Marshall was, by all accounts, a middle of the road defensive back who, while he excelled in JuCo, didn't have the size to play QB in the SEC. Gus built the perfect offense around him to make him as successful as he was.  Had he gone to K-State, like a lot of his family wanted him to, it's doubtful he would have had near the success, if he would have even won the start.

Don't forget, in 2013, sportscasters were referring to our offensive scheme as "cheating" because it was so hard to defend. While it used elements of decades old schemes, no one had seen anything exactly like it.

[auburnphan 6,050]

6 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

While I can see where you are coming from Re: Cam, you have to keep in mind that Marshall was, by all accounts, a middle of the road defensive back who, while he excelled in JuCo, didn't have the size to play QB in the SEC. Gus built the perfect offense around him to make him as successful as he was.  Had he gone to K-State, like a lot of his family wanted him to, it's doubtful he would have had near the success, if he would have even won the start.

Don't forget, in 2013, sportscasters were referring to our offensive scheme as "cheating" because it was so hard to defend. While it used elements of decades old schemes, no one had seen anything exactly like it.

Can u find me these quotes and articles, I googled and found nothing.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

50 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

There seems to be a lot of history being rewritten by fans based off of Gus's recent mistakes, just like a lot of his recent mistakes are being forgiven by others because of past glories. I guess it's all natural and human but I still find it curious.

This is a very astute statement, my friend. It seems, more and more, that people have trouble grasping that geniuses don't become idiots and idiots don't become geniuses, so if you see a drastic change in the outcome of someone's actions, odds are very good that there are other variables at play.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

2 minutes ago, auburnphan said:

Can u find me these quotes and articles, I googled and found nothing.

I don't know that it was written or just spoken, but I can tell you that one of them was from David Pollack in a discussion, I believe on the SEC Network, leading up to either the SEC or National championship game. (you'll have to pardon me... it's been 4 years and chemo messes with your brain).

Here... I found a thread about it here... 

 

[gr82b4au 5,568]

4 minutes ago, auburnphan said:

Can u find me these quotes and articles, I googled and found nothing.

Go rewatch the 2013 SEC championship game and listen to them talk about how every college football program will want to copy AU's offense because it was unstoppable. I have problems with Gus but I will give him 100% credit for 2013. Gus designed his offense around a player that could execute it perfectly. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, gr82b4au said:

Go rewatch the 2013 SEC championship game and listen to them talk about how every college football program will want to copy AU's offense because it was unstoppable. I have problems with Gus but I will give him 100% credit for 2013. Gus designed his offense around a player that could execute it perfectly. 

*nods head intensely*