Malzhan Growth

[Strychnine 1,802]

18 hours ago, bigbird said:

Kam Martin's school, Port Arthur Memorial, does that some of the time. It is difficult to get used to and even harder to get calls made and aligned to.  That said, AU hasn't run much hurry up lately. More of hurry to the line and wait.

 

Hurry to the line and wait is frustrating and baffling.  I expected an evolution into blistering pace when the author of The Hurry-Up, No-Huddle: An Offensive Philosophy was given the keys to the Ferrari, especially given the popular sentiment was that Chizik had been handicapping his ability to run it.

[McLoofus 35,182]

43 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Hurry to the line and wait is frustrating and baffling.  I expected an evolution into blistering pace when the author of The Hurry-Up, No-Huddle: An Offensive Philosophy was given the keys to the Ferrari, especially given the popular sentiment was that Chizik had been handicapping his ability to run it.

I chalk this up to two things over the last couple years: 1) Gus not having the players (2015) and 2) Gus not *believing* he had the players (2016).

 

[AU64 10,122]

Just my opinion but hurry up, offense is greatly over rated as far as impacting a team's success. All of Gus's stomping around, waving his arms ,etc. is just a sideshow....part of the smoke and mirrors stuff....a diversion...

Take a look at the top 25 in any given year and almost none of them play HUNH as their standard offense..  It can be a useful ploy at critical times but overall, I see nothing lost by pacing the offense to game situations and the available talent.

 

[oracle79 3,569]

19 hours ago, triangletiger said:

When is the last time a head coach has left Auburn of his own choice to go and coach elsewhere?  It doesn't happen.  We are at the top of the food chain as far as college head coaching jobs go.  A bigger concern would that the powers-that-be lose patience and run him off prematurely.

Understand that concern, but I'd ask just one question about it.  Who was the last head football coach we fired that went on to be a successful head coach (at the level we want) at another P5 school?  After 5 years on the job, an accurate evaluation of someone's coaching abilities should be able to be made.  They've either demonstrated they can't do it, showed they've plateaued at a mediocre level, or shown observable evidence that they are improving and going in the right direction.

[Strychnine 1,802]

50 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

I chalk this up to two things over the last couple years: 1) Gus not having the players (2015) and 2) Gus not *believing* he had the players (2016).

 

 

 

If the offense is built around the concept of executing it as fast as possible, then slowing it down is not going to help address any roster shortcomings (real or imagined).  I would expect it to expose them.  The motion and misdirection are pointless when the defense (and their coaches) have time to think about it and react.  The simplicity of the offense becomes its Achilles Heel when it is slowed down.  It gives the defense more opportunity to employ what the coaches taught, and what was learned from film.  Of course, it is also hard to employ first down tempo when the first down play is almost always predictable.

I do not think hurry to the line and wait, while Gus and Lashlee played peek-a-boo with the defense, was the result of roster shortcomings.  It was happening in 2013 and 2014 as well.  I think Gus has been outsmarting himself, always wanting to size up the defense, always looking for the big play, and it has come at the expense of the greatest advantage his offense has.

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, Strychnine said:

If the offense is built around the concept of executing it as fast as possible, then slowing it down is not going to help address any roster shortcomings (real or imagined).  I would expect it to expose them.  The motion and misdirection are pointless when the defense (and their coaches) have time to think about it and react. 

Except you have to have an offense that works and can get first downs in order to be able to run it without adjusting to the defense. We didn't have personnel in 2015 capable of imposing our offensive identity upon the defense. We didn't even have an offensive identity. Jeremy Johnson, Duke Williams and Jovon Robinson were supposed to be our offensive identity. Whoops. We had to look for weaknesses in the defense. 

And last year's Clemson game told us everything we needed to know about Gus's mindset going into last year. We agree that he tried to outsmart himself. 

 

Quote

It was happening in 2013 and 2014 as well. 

I have a hard time finding any fault with our 2013 and 2014 offenses. 

[Strychnine 1,802]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

Except you have to have an offense that works and can get first downs in order to be able to run it without adjusting to the defense. We didn't have personnel in 2015 capable of imposing our offensive identity upon the defense. We didn't even have an offensive identity. Jeremy Johnson, Duke Williams and Jovon Robinson were supposed to be our offensive identity. Whoops. We had to look for weaknesses in the defense. 

And last year's Clemson game told us everything we needed to know about Gus's mindset going into last year. We agree that he tried to outsmart himself. 

 

I have a hard time finding any fault with our 2013 and 2014 offenses. 

 

All true, but that was not the point I was making.  My point is that Gus' offense is built around the concept of being run with tempo, where misdirection and tempo combine to cause the defense to make mistakes and get a playmaker into open space.  It is not overly complex, because it needs to be as simple as possible in order to run it fast without confusing yourself.  The defense is not supposed to have time to think about what you are doing, dissect the misdirection, or consider discovered tendencies.

When this offense is slowed down, but executed the same way, it is placed at a disadvantage.  The window-dressing and long-developing plays turn from confusing into telegraphs.  2013 and 2014 had the advantage of a dynamic QB with a wonderful knack for making stuff happen.  Hurry to the line and then wait for peek-a-boo was going on then too.  It has not been happening out of necessity, it has been happening because that is what Gus wanted to do.  It happened when the offense was performing well, and when it was not.  Gus as a high school coach and author, was committed to tempo and using it to create a virtual 5th quarter that his opponents were not conditioned for.  Gus as the head coach of Auburn University is clearly not.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

All true, but that was not the point I was making.  My point is that Gus' offense is built around the concept of being run with tempo, where misdirection and tempo combine to cause the defense to make mistakes and get a playmaker into open space.  It is not overly complex, because it needs to be as simple as possible in order to run it fast without confusing yourself.  The defense is not supposed to have time to think about what you are doing, dissect the misdirection, or consider discovered tendencies.

When this offense is slowed down, but executed the same way, it is placed at a disadvantage.  The window-dressing and long-developing plays turn from confusing into telegraphs.  2013 and 2014 had the advantage of a dynamic QB with a wonderful knack for making stuff happen.  Hurry to the line and then wait for peek-a-boo was going on then too.  It has not been happening out of necessity, it has been happening because that is what Gus wanted to do.  It happened when the offense was performing well, and when it was not.  Gus as a high school coach and author, was committed to tempo and using it to create a virtual 5th quarter that his opponents were not conditioned for.  Gus as the head coach of Auburn University is clearly not.

Okay, so when he has a bunch of crap players out there who aren't able to execute the plays, he's supposed to stay committed to tempo and make those 3 and outs happen faster?

[Strychnine 1,802]

Just now, McLoofus said:

Okay, so when he has a bunch of crap players out there who aren't able to execute the plays, he's supposed to stay committed to tempo and make those 3 and outs happen faster?

 

I think a positive result is more likely to be achieved by taking advantage of the defense not being completely ready (and keeping them in that position), than by giving them (and their coaches) more time to see and think about what you are doing, especially if you are trying to work with "a bunch of crap players".

[AUIH1 1,515]

6 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

 

I think a positive result is more likely to be achieved by taking advantage of the defense not being completely ready (and keeping them in that position), than by giving them (and their coaches) more time to see and think about what you are doing, especially if you are trying to work with "a bunch of crap players".

Additionally, Gus' offense at AU has been exposed as being very simplistic and easy to figure out unless you have a dynamic QB running the show like Cam or Nick (who basically make plays on their own or their decision making).  Without those dynamic type of players, then well thought out and effective play calling and more complicated schemes are a must.......I am not sure that Gus is capable which is why I am cautiously optimistic that Lindsey can move our O schemes/play calls out of Shiloh Christian and put them at a 2017 Power 5 Conference level.

 

wde

[Tiger 8,829]

I think it comes down to personal preference.

Coach X might think it's to his advantage to run something, anything, fast just because the defense is not completely set up or able to adjust to anything you're doing on offense.

Coach Y might think it's to his advantage to set every little thing up perfectly on his side of the ball before the center snaps it due to a thought that if everything is in place it maximizes the play's potential to work. "Good execution beats good defense" I suppose is the thought here.

I certainly feel we have a Coach Y on our sideline now but in a former life he used to be a Coach X. Both sides have good cases IMO. You ideally don't want to waste a down with a playcall that you didn't spend the time to think through on one end, but on the other you don't want to telegraph what you're doing to the DC. Also, isn't it kind of weird that whenever we do go HUNH that we usually run the same play we just ran that got us initially pushing the tempo? 

 

In my ever so valuable opinion, in a vacuum, I think I'd rather have my opponent be as uncomfortable as possible and push the tempo as much as I could. If that ends up hurting me with quick 3 and outs and whatnot then I'd probably dial it back to the slowed down tempo, and take my time and be tedious with substitutions as Gus/Rhett were doing more recently. Of course there are things in play such as how good my defense and special teams are, etc, that you have to consider as well.

[McLoofus 35,182]

45 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

I think a positive result is more likely to be achieved by taking advantage of the defense not being completely ready (and keeping them in that position), than by giving them (and their coaches) more time to see and think about what you are doing, especially if you are trying to work with "a bunch of crap players".

You have to get first downs for tempo to work. From the man who wrote the book:

Quote

"The biggest thing is not getting first downs. That's the biggest thing to take you out of your tempo," Malzahn said in his SEC teleconference. "After you get a first down, that's when most pace teams are really going to put the hammer down." 

http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/index.ssf/2013/09/gus_malzahns_key_to_picking_up.html

Maybe it's a chicken and egg debate, but that 2015 offense wasn't exactly a first down machine even on the first series. 

As for your scare quotes around "crap players", this is the depth chart for the 2015 season opener:

Quarterback
Jeremy Johnson- Replaced after 3rd game
Sean White- RS FR who never took a college snap until the 4th game

Running back
Roc Thomas- Did not remain starter and did not return
Peyton Barber- Undrafted
Jovon Robinson- Missed numerous games and did not return

H-Back
Kamryn Pettway- RS FR, now plays RB
Chandler Cox- FR

Receiver
Melvin Ray- Undrafted
Jason Smith- Now a DB

Receiver
Ricardo Louis- Drafted in 4th round
Stanton Truitt- FR, no longer with team

Receiver
D'haquille Williams- Asked to leave midseason
Tony Stevens- Undrafted

Receiver
Marcus Davis- Undrafted
Ryan Davis- FR

Tight end
Jalen Harris- FR
Chris Laye- FR, left team

Left tackle
Shon Coleman- Drafted in 3rd round
 

Left guard
Alex Kozan- First season back from back injury; undrafted
 

Center
Austin Golson- Had never played center before
 

Right guard
Braden Smith- SO, 2nd team All-SEC
 

Right tackle
Avery Young- Undrafted
 

[AU64 10,122]

Thanks McL....facts can be stubborn things.?

Quote

 

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Thanks McL....facts can be stubborn things.?

You know I'm critical of Gus for a lot of things, but he wasn't going to make chicken salad out of that lineup. (And before someone says it, no, I don't blame him too much for the condition that the roster was in, either.)

[Strychnine 1,802]

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Maybe it's a chicken and egg debate, but that 2015 offense wasn't exactly a first down machine even on the first series.

 

It is.  I have not been referring to the first play of a series either, though I personally would not object to relentless tempo from the first play onward.  I have been referring to the failure to kick in tempo after a first down, or stopping it after a fast play or three to hurry to the line and wait for the peek-a-boo call.  It has happened 2013-2016.  When he was hired, I expected tempo to be employed more relentlessly than it has been throughout the last 4 years, and I do think his offense is at a disadvantage when it is slowed down.

[Strychnine 1,802]

10 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

You know I'm critical of Gus for a lot of things, but he wasn't going to make chicken salad out of that lineup. (And before someone says it, no, I don't blame him too much for the condition that the roster was in, either.)

 

I do not think many teams have a record of success after the loss of two impact players and a QB implosion.

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, Strychnine said:

I do not think many teams have a record of success after the loss of two impact players and a QB implosion.

Might not have even been able to run the offense that they would have liked to.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

21 hours ago, AUBwins said:

I think some of the hurry and wait will go away if we just trust or QB to make calls at the line.

I would love to see this, but I can't remember the last time we actually let the QB call the plays.  We've been running the groundhog offense since Gus arrived in 2009.

[triangletiger 1,599]

4 hours ago, oracle79 said:

Understand that concern, but I'd ask just one question about it.  Who was the last head football coach we fired that went on to be a successful head coach (at the level we want) at another P5 school?  After 5 years on the job, an accurate evaluation of someone's coaching abilities should be able to be made.  They've either demonstrated they can't do it, showed they've plateaued at a mediocre level, or shown observable evidence that they are improving and going in the right direction.

None that I can think of, but I don't think Auburn is unique in that respect. 

It's hard to think of any coach who was fired from a P5 program (other than something scandal-related) and went on to be successful at another Power 5 program.  Mike Leach and Bobby Petrino come to mind, but they both left due to something kind of 'scandal' (albeit I  question the justification in firing Leach).  The jury is still out on Ed Orgeron, but he may prove to be the exception. 

Again, my point was that coaches that are successful at a top-tier program like Auburn don't leave of their own volition (not fired or "encouraged to resign") to become a head coach elsewhere.  Lane Kiffin leaving Tennessee is one of the few cases of a coach leaving a top program for another top program.  The only other examples I can possibly think of is Saban leaving Michigan St. for LSU and Johnny Majors leaving Pitt for Tennessee, but one could make the case that these were not lateral moves.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Peyton Barber- Undrafted but signed by Tampa Bay, recorded stats in 9 games and started 1, is still on the roster

Fixed it... just because he deserves the credit.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

Fixed it... just because he deserves the credit.

Indeed he does, for making the most of repeated, unexpected opportunities, in college and in the NFL. I hope he keeps getting opportunities. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

29 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Indeed he does, for making the most of repeated, unexpected opportunities, in college and in the NFL. I hope he keeps getting opportunities. 

He is the poster child for making the best of every opportunity you get. I hope Gus brings him back to speak to the team frequently. It's so much more powerful of a message than Bo and Cam, who are both freak athletes and would have succeeded anywhere.

[Warbird82 160]

Two things he needs to do to improve:

1. Throw to the tightend more
2. Bring back orange facemasks

[homersapien 11,393]

25 minutes ago, Warbird82 said:

Two things he needs to do to improve:

1. Throw to the tightend more
2. Bring back orange facemasks

NOOOOO!

Bring back black shoes!

(#1 is OK though.)

[auburnphan 6,050]

2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

Indeed he does, for making the most of repeated, unexpected opportunities, in college and in the NFL. I hope he keeps getting opportunities. 

McLoof-

    When I look back at the successes of the CN and NM offenses, I honestly can not give much credit to Gus.  Those two guys made more broken plays or bad play calls into positive plays by their playmaking abilities rather than the correct play being called in.  I see Gus maturing into a potentially great head coach and love the direction he is building our program, but I also think that he was given the offensive genius tab way to early.  DC's after getting tape on his offense had it figured out. Hell, most of us had it figured out and knew what play we were running.

Improvements that Gus can do:

1.  Getting his team ready to play the 3rd quarter

2.  Being more confident and in control on the sidelines during games

3.  Continue to evolve how practices/drills and techniques are used.  This game is constantly advancing.

4.  Continue to grow trust in the guys that you gave jobs to.  If you don't trust them, then you got the wrong guy.

5.  Become a bigger part of the campus, if he could have 1/1000th of Bruce Pearl's personality, AU would benefit greatly